by Moorgard on 2001-07-17
While scouring the Net for worthwhile tidbits for you, our beloved readers, I came up with something that struck my fancy.Kreugen, stubby dwarven paladin and officer of Fires of Heaven, posted a rant on the state of two-handed weapons and why they stink compared to one-handers being dual-wielded.
This interested me because my good pal (and fellow Mobhunter) Csenicier plays a paladin, and frequently laments certain perceived shortcomings of his class. I can't tell you how many lunches we're shared where he goes on and on about how low his damage output is or how he isn't required for raids. Being a monk myself (though admittedly not "required" for raids, either), and being in a guild that takes on at least some of the Velious uber mobs, I hit him with an alternate perspective on what makes a class "needed" on a high-end raid.
What follows is an AIM discussion between Csenicier and myself, edited only slightly for content (my delicious AFK message, for instance, was removed). It may convince you of some things, or it may not. In any case, we hope it encourages you to think about balance and your role in the game.
Apologies in advance for bad grammar, poor spelling, and any other miscellaneous errata.
CsenicierXev: Any news today?
MoorgardXev: not that i can find.
CsenicierXev: This is getting frustrating. Let's make up a story about Absor being a crack addict or something. Ed. Note: Apologies to Absor. ;)
MoorgardXev: http://foh.noows.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2467
MoorgardXev: the problem with his premise is that he assumes classes like pallys and sks are supposed to do comparable damage to dual-wielding classes.
CsenicierXev: No he doesn't. Even if 2HS was upgraded we'd still suffer from a much lower skill cap.
CsenicierXev: In fact I would argue that a simple 2H weapon upgrade would do little to help out Pal/SK's in epic encounters because of the skill cap.
MoorgardXev: what's your cap?
CsenicierXev: 225 I think at 60
CsenicierXev: The problem is all the missing.
CsenicierXev: Our ATK number just can't get us over the 'hump' to be effective against the epic mobs.
CsenicierXev: It's like a level 40 on a Nagafen raid.
CsenicierXev: They're not going to hit - even with a really good weapon.
MoorgardXev: so which would you rather have--higher skill caps and the weapons you have now or much better weapons/2h bonuses?
CsenicierXev: I would *much* rather have higher skill caps.
CsenicierXev: Of course this won't happen.
MoorgardXev: it doesn't seem like our pallys complain about not being able to hit uber mobs, though.
MoorgardXev: just the damage that they do when hitting.
CsenicierXev: It's a combination of both. They likely have their misses turned off to stay sane, like I do.
MoorgardXev: i dunno. looking at the 60 game, pallys can heal pretty well, rez, cast a buff that everyone on the raid wants, can DA themselves, and have LoH. i don't see why their damage output should be even close to pure melee, who only have one thing to offer.
CsenicierXev: Everything you describe above is done much better by a cleric.
CsenicierXev: To be effective we need to do some damage.
MoorgardXev: but the cleric can't melee at all, or LoH, or give divine str.
CsenicierXev: We're not doing half what a Warrior can do. Let alone a Monk or Rogue.
CsenicierXev: Cleric's CH > LoH
MoorgardXev: not with cast time.
MoorgardXev: a paladin can save someone with a second's notice. cleric can't.
MoorgardXev: plus, paladins and sks are strong solo classes. that has to be accounted for as well.
CsenicierXev: What percentage of a Warrior's damage should a Paladin be able to do?
MoorgardXev: what percentage damage does a level 60 pally with the best weapon do vs. a level 60 warrior with the best weapons now?
CsenicierXev: It depends on the mob in question - thus the problem.
CsenicierXev: In Seb a Pally can do 80% the damage. In an epic encounter this will go down to 30-40%.
MoorgardXev: and all anyone ever talks about in terms of balance is the level 60 epic encounter.
CsenicierXev: Well, yeah. That's the game at 60.
MoorgardXev: so then, would you say that paladins are balanced everywhere except for Velious?
CsenicierXev: I would come close to agreeing with that.
MoorgardXev: and maybe CT and Inny, not sure on those.
CsenicierXev: We can't hit the level 70 stuff because of our offense and weapon skill caps resulting in weak ATK.
MoorgardXev: the only classes that don't complain about the Velious mobs are warriors, rogues, and monks.
MoorgardXev: actually, the latter two do have some complaints, just not the same type as other classes.
CsenicierXev: Well, and Rangers I think.
CsenicierXev: Offensively speaking.
MoorgardXev: rangers, monks, and rogues mostly have issues with aggro on these mobs.
MoorgardXev: aggro management, not damage output.
CsenicierXev: The problem is that application of ATK into the to hit/damage formula is non-linear.
CsenicierXev: You can get exponentially more damage output vs. certain mobs with relatively small increases to the to-hit component of ATK.
MoorgardXev: what about pallys who get call of predator and/or avatar?
CsenicierXev: Problem = solved
CsenicierXev: It makes an enormous difference.
MoorgardXev: Kreugen still complains about the primal 2h weapons though.
CsenicierXev: Perhaps he's choosing to ignore the avatar proc.
CsenicierXev: Or perhaps the stuff he's fighting is too tough for even a warrior without avatar and Pallys and SK once again fall short...
CsenicierXev: dunno
MoorgardXev: no matter how you slice it or what buffs or abilities a class has, ultimately what they want to do is damage the mob. when they can't do it as much as they'd like, they complain. we run into these issues with just about every class except war, mnk, rog.
MoorgardXev: and rng
CsenicierXev: So the complainers are just Pal, SK, and Bards?
MoorgardXev: shamans want to slow mobs, and complain to high heaven when they can't. if they lack one pivotal spell, malo, they feel useless in Velious.
MoorgardXev: mages think their epic pets are junk and that their DD spells suck. some mages would retire rather than be CoH dispensers.
CsenicierXev: Let's leave out the casters and talk melee
MoorgardXev: you have to look at all the classes, though.
CsenicierXev: I suppose. It's just harder to talk about.
MoorgardXev: every class is required to succeed in velious. it's just that the roles are so very different in many cases compared to what they did in Kunark.
CsenicierXev: I agree that the role shift is part of the problem. Folks don't want to let go of tactics that worked in Sebilis.
MoorgardXev: what the paladin has to realize is that like the cleric, you are responsible in no small part for the damage output done by the melee person you save. i can't tell you how many times the paladin in my group has saved my life, allowing me to do an extra few thousand pts of damage. that makes part of that damage belong to the pally.
MoorgardXev: many, many times I've been down below 200hp before i could be healed. without divine str, i would simply have died. again, the pally is responsible for my continued damage output.
CsenicierXev: Yeah, yeah. That's part of the role-shift. Primary tank in exp groups to backup healer on raids.
MoorgardXev: but its still a vital role. it's just that instead of the cannonball, you're now part of the cannon. that doesn't make you less important.
CsenicierXev: People aren't willing to make the transition in a lot of cases. "This isn't the class I signed up for!"
MoorgardXev: I grant you that, and can see where some classes would feel especially shafted. necros, druids, and enchanters have my utmost sympathies here. but on the other hand, the change in tactics required in velious does make the game more interesting overall.
MoorgardXev: interesting at the expense of the minority? perhaps.
MoorgardXev: there's no question that the game could be balanced better, or at least in a way that certain classes might like more. but for every argument that you can make that EQ is out of whack, someone else can make a compelling argument that it isn't. Which is why it sucks to write an editorial on balancing. Ed. Note: Yes somehow I chose to do it anyway. /groan
CsenicierXev: How do you get by the point that only a few essential classes are needed for an end-game raid?
MoorgardXev: what classes do you think are the only essential ones?
CsenicierXev: Only Warriors and Clerics are required in numbers. Sometimes more than one Enchanter or Shaman is required. Only a couple other classes would require a single representative.
CsenicierXev: No one ever called a raid off because they couldn't get enough Paladins, SKs, Monks, Necros, ...
MoorgardXev: granted. but in what way is this a bad thing? or to put it another way, how should it be done differently? the alternative you seem to be hinting at is that certain numbers of every class be required for a raid to succeed.
MoorgardXev: or, that no one of any class should be required.
CsenicierXev: I would start by saying that it would have been nice to know what the high end game was going to turn into when I started. I'd at least know what I was buying into instead of finding out after 50+ levels that I'm not really needed.
MoorgardXev: here's the first problem. confusing the idea of "needed" or "required" as opposed to being "desired."
MoorgardXev: do we "need" 4 level 60 paladins to kill Sontalak? no. do we "desire" them? hell yes.
MoorgardXev: let me use another example. necros and mages both provide an absolutely vital role on raids: they both provide mana. necros give it directly, and mages provide it through mod rods. mana fuels hit points. hit points fuels damage output.
CsenicierXev: Likely only one or two Necros/Mages could do the job though.
MoorgardXev: with any class, the more the better. this idea of how many are "required" is a bit misleading. no one ever says "we only want one paladin to come."
CsenicierXev: Perhaps with server-side filtering this is true. Prior to that many of these 'support' classes were not worth the lag.
MoorgardXev: give me more paladins. give me more sks. give me more mages. give me more everything, and the whole game becomes easier... assuming we're talking about skilled players.
CsenicierXev: The above discussion would make a fine editorial.
MoorgardXev: i don't know. all this has been written before, and it still doesn't convince people of anything.
CsenicierXev: Many people haven't seen these ideas.
CsenicierXev: Anyway, you've convinced me of some stuff.
MoorgardXev: you're easily led.
CsenicierXev: Yes I am.