I don’t or have any desire to buy or sell, or buy anything for sale or sell anything that can be bought. I do agree with the above post though. You are not duplicating or replicating anything.. you are merely transfering something to someone else who also must have purchased the right to use it, in order to be able to do so, and what is in fact being transacted for, is the investment of time, skill or whatever, it took to get said thingy.
I don’t like it, but other ideas of it always seem to be to be trying to warp the facts to make the gaming world a better place.
Thumbs up to trying to keep the gold sellers etc out of games, I just don’t agree with the IP premise of the “items and Characters” in question.

The key point being the recipient of the goods must also be legally licensed to receive and use such goods. The “seller” isn’t ripping the company’s IP and trying to pass it off as their own, creating their own game with it, or even competing with the company (unless you run station exchange). The analogy of the music CD is an interesting example. If I buy a license to listen to music (IE pick up a CD at a store), I can hop on eBay and sell the disc. I am not claiming ownership of the music. Heck, if I have a copy of Windows XP and lend it to my brother to install on his computer (where he is a licensee of windows XP, but just misplaced his disc), that is OK too. As long as both parties are licensed to use the IP in question.

An EULA can police whether or not you use 3rd party software to play a game since that directly interacts with the environment. It gets really tricky when you start trying to police other types of actions. If my buddy buys me dinner because I powerlevel him all day long or give him that master spell he’s been looking for for months, that would be a similar quid pro quo, wouldn’t it? Where do you draw the line?

I’d also like to note that an EULA can say *anything*…but that doesn’t translate into legally enforceable. You see similar things in rental agreements for apartments, typically meant to intimidate renters from breaking their lease early (IE if you break early, you must pay everything left on it…which is a load of crap since they legally have to advertise and attempt to occupy the property and can NOT charge you for time in which they have a tenant occupying the unit (at least in California)). A EULA could read “you agree to sacrifice your first born on a stone altar after you reach level 20″ … and some people would still click “I agree,” but it doesn’t mean the California court system will be gathering wood and telling you to bring forth the child.

I do think it is important to reiterate that players have absolutely no ownership of items/currency in MMOs. If the company were to close shop, players would not be able to sue over loss of their characters, etc. However, I don’t think it is the same to say that brokering a trade (I believe the term “guaranteed outcome” between two licensed users) is quite the same as a broker claiming ownership of the company’s IP, and I’ll be very interested to see how the matter turns out in courts.

One could argue that trading an in game item for real money is NOT POSSIBLE within the domain of the EULA because the mechanics of the game do not allow for out-of-game items to be placed into a trading window. The other argument would be that virtual items have no monetary value since they do not exist outside of the game; they are not owned by any entity besides the company, and therefore cannot be considered as “IP” being “sold” when a licensed user attempts to broker a transfer to another licensed user. Where is the violation of intellectual property rights when the “property” doesn’t tangibly exist, has no monetary value, is not being removed from its intended domain, is not being represented as property that belongs to an entity other than the company (IE what good is platinum if it isn’t for the game you want to use it in), and is being transferred both to and from persons licensed to use it, both of which can not claim any legal ownership to it?

I’m not looking at the character I created as IP, because it isn’t original IP. I see the characters I create more as an Art (which only has value to those that look at it or posses it), and I look at Gold and other items I find as time spent.

Shouldn’t I be able to trade the time I spent to someone else that either
doesn’t want to spend that time or doesn’t have that time to spend? And what I trade it for is up to me determining what my time is valued at (lately not worth much more than a box of doughnuts).

(On a sidebar I think it is quite hypocritical for SOE to say you can trade your characters, items, and coin through one side of their mouth and then go after other people that are doing it, but not the SOE way)

Until a legal ruling changes things, yeah, it does mean that.

The problem with illustrations and metaphors is that they can be manipulated to suit one’s own interpretation. I prefer not to say “a gaming IP is like…” because it isn’t. It’s close to the way music and movies work, but isn’t exactly like it specifically because of the player involvement you mentioned.

However, the issue of ownership still stands. The game maker owns the database and all the data related to the game. The fact that your actions move around those bits doesn’t mean you own the bits.

Will it change? We’ll see. But if players do end up with actual ownership, all kinds of problems could potentially result.

If it makes you feel any better, you can own all the emotional reaction you have related to what happens to those bits.

Really….so it must have been the developers channeling through me for all of those hours while I customized my piece of the world.

Like I said before, just because the developers provided me with a unique world and the tools to customize that world doesn’t mean they own my creations.

Craftsman doesn’t own the vehicle created with their tools. Just because the developers created to world we participate in and the rules we live by, should they own our creation?

I’m not a religious wacko, but to parallel the thought the developers our the worlds Gods and our creations (using the tools of replication the developers provide) are the Gods children. Does God extend ownership to his/her children? Or does God provide his/her children a way to live their lives how they see fit and make the proper choices?

“but opinion doesn’t change what’s in the EULA.” And this is why I don’t buy/sell things unless on the SE servers. But just because someone writes a EULA doesn’t make it legal. (Yes I understand that clicking the “I Agree” button you are agreeing to the EULA thus signing the agreement. I am just waiting for some to actually legally challenge the agreement.)

You didn’t create it. You personalized the MMO maker’s world within the rules made by the MMO maker.

As I said, this is at least how it is for current commerical adventure MMOs in the US. You can agree with that or not, but opinion doesn’t change what’s in the EULA.

Shouldn’t I own part of that world I created? Yes the developers created the world and the tools for me to create my character, but it is me that has customized my character and it is me that spent the time building my character. If it was not for me my character would not exist.

The USA was build on people taking the tools and items that others provide and that we legitimately pay for, to create things that we can use and sell if we see fit.

Just because the MMO developer gave us the tools to create should it mean they own the items we create? Should Craftsman have ownership of all vehicles built with its tools?

“We just don’t have the same emotional involvement with Penzoil that we do with our MMO of choice.”

This is because I don’t spent 3 hours a night putting oil into my vehicle. People have this emotional tie because of the time investment. When people put time/effort into anything emotional attachments form real or virtual.

I agree with this to a certain extent. The Western MMO model is built around the “OMG we must keep our subscribers forever!” concept. With microtransactions instead of the monthly fee, it doesn’t so much matter. If someone plays for a while, quits, then comes back and spends a bunch of money to catch up to their friends, the developer still wins. The microtransaction model, in fact, suits periodic content updates exceptionally well.

Ugh, it sounds like I’m a microtransaction apologist! :p

“The whole concept of IP and ownership reeks of capitalism and greed…”

But we accept IP ownership as a given most of the time. I mean, most of us would never consider trying to sell sweatshirts with the Penzoil logo, even if there was a huge demand for them. Yet because we invest our emotions into our MMO characters, we somehow think that gives us ownership over some portion of that world.

MMO makers aren’t being greedy; they’re just trying to exert the same control over their IP as companies do in any other type of business. We just don’t have the same emotional involvement with Penzoil that we do with our MMO of choice.

It seems to me like the industry has not put any effort forward as a whole by working together to pursue lawsuits/legislation towards RMT sellers and instead has adopted company specific (Station Exchange, mass WOW banning) means of battling it. I am not saying those are not good moves from a business standpoint, but it smells like a “if you can’t beat em, join’em” solution in some cases, not really sure how legislation is going to be developed for the industry as a whole by people in DC who have a lot worse things to figure out first, when the industry itself can’t even decide/foster a plan of action (at least that i know about, it could be out there I just haven’t seen it myself).