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	<title>Comments on: Sacred Cows</title>
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	<link>http://www.mobhunter.com/?p=235</link>
	<description>A delicate blend of sarcasm and spite.</description>
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		<title>By: Wolfshead Online &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Raph Koster on the Bartle Controversy</title>
		<link>http://www.mobhunter.com/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-80140</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolfshead Online &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Raph Koster on the Bartle Controversy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 09:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moorgard.com/?p=235#comment-80140</guid>
		<description>[...] I respectfully disagree with some of what Blackguard and Moorgard have said on this Bartle issue, they have my genuine admiration in that they are a rare breed of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I respectfully disagree with some of what Blackguard and Moorgard have said on this Bartle issue, they have my genuine admiration in that they are a rare breed of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Theogrin</title>
		<link>http://www.mobhunter.com/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-79945</link>
		<dc:creator>Theogrin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 20:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moorgard.com/?p=235#comment-79945</guid>
		<description>The way I see it is similar to this: would we have had MMOs as we know them without MUDs?  Probably not.  In general, the current MMOs, or at least the highly marketed and popular ones, are MUD derivatives, at least in part; they share a lot of similarities, they&#039;re very combat-oriented for the most part, they use much of the same terminology (which derived from yet further back), they have classes...well, et cetera, you get the picture.  But that&#039;s sort of a meaningless statement: surely we&#039;d have something similar to Dungeons and Dragons if Tolkien had passed away in his youth, or if T.S. Eliot had never written a word, or if the legend of Beowulf hadn&#039;t been &lt;strike&gt;written&lt;/strike&gt;sung.

The harder question, I think, isn&#039;t whether or not we&#039;d have them at all, but what changes would have come as a result of removing one link in the chain.  Without Everquest or Ultima Online, would the genre have exploded the way it did?  In fact, looking back further, the removal of either Meridian 59 or the original (AOL) Neverwinter Nights would have changed a ton.  Taking out Rogue from the history of computer games would pretty much guarantee a change in virtually every hack and slash game out there, even if they were still around in a different way.

I guess that to put it in a simpler light, my view&#039;s that MUDs - and P&amp;Ps, and wargames, and even more &#039;real&#039; aspects of history, are all somewhat essential links to the genre of MMOs _as we know them_, if not in entirety.  MUDs didn&#039;t cause MMOs, but they were a link in the chain leading up to them.

And as for persistent worlds, now I&#039;m trying to remember what Legend of the Red Dragon was like...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The way I see it is similar to this: would we have had MMOs as we know them without MUDs?  Probably not.  In general, the current MMOs, or at least the highly marketed and popular ones, are MUD derivatives, at least in part; they share a lot of similarities, they&#8217;re very combat-oriented for the most part, they use much of the same terminology (which derived from yet further back), they have classes&#8230;well, et cetera, you get the picture.  But that&#8217;s sort of a meaningless statement: surely we&#8217;d have something similar to Dungeons and Dragons if Tolkien had passed away in his youth, or if T.S. Eliot had never written a word, or if the legend of Beowulf hadn&#8217;t been <strike>written</strike>sung.</p>
<p>The harder question, I think, isn&#8217;t whether or not we&#8217;d have them at all, but what changes would have come as a result of removing one link in the chain.  Without Everquest or Ultima Online, would the genre have exploded the way it did?  In fact, looking back further, the removal of either Meridian 59 or the original (AOL) Neverwinter Nights would have changed a ton.  Taking out Rogue from the history of computer games would pretty much guarantee a change in virtually every hack and slash game out there, even if they were still around in a different way.</p>
<p>I guess that to put it in a simpler light, my view&#8217;s that MUDs &#8211; and P&amp;Ps, and wargames, and even more &#8216;real&#8217; aspects of history, are all somewhat essential links to the genre of MMOs _as we know them_, if not in entirety.  MUDs didn&#8217;t cause MMOs, but they were a link in the chain leading up to them.</p>
<p>And as for persistent worlds, now I&#8217;m trying to remember what Legend of the Red Dragon was like&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Slyfeind</title>
		<link>http://www.mobhunter.com/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-79936</link>
		<dc:creator>Slyfeind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moorgard.com/?p=235#comment-79936</guid>
		<description>Ultima Online was being considered, if I recall correctly, back when they were developing Ultima 6. This was in the 80&#039;s. I don&#039;t know if Garriott had played MUD by then.

With that in mind, I would tend to agree that MMOs (as we know them) would have arisen without MUDs (as we&#039;ve come to think of them). It&#039;s like the Beatles analogy. Rock and roll did, in fact, evolve out of jazz and blues and what have you, almost spontaneously, from multiple sources. Elvis was already rocking before Paul or Ringo.

On the other hand, it seems to me that someone would inevitably make a MUD on their way to making an MMO. The first MMO would have been prototyped with a text-based interface, and then the designers would say &quot;Hey this is actually pretty fun. Screw the graphics. Let&#039;s ship this and see how well it does.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ultima Online was being considered, if I recall correctly, back when they were developing Ultima 6. This was in the 80&#8242;s. I don&#8217;t know if Garriott had played MUD by then.</p>
<p>With that in mind, I would tend to agree that MMOs (as we know them) would have arisen without MUDs (as we&#8217;ve come to think of them). It&#8217;s like the Beatles analogy. Rock and roll did, in fact, evolve out of jazz and blues and what have you, almost spontaneously, from multiple sources. Elvis was already rocking before Paul or Ringo.</p>
<p>On the other hand, it seems to me that someone would inevitably make a MUD on their way to making an MMO. The first MMO would have been prototyped with a text-based interface, and then the designers would say &#8220;Hey this is actually pretty fun. Screw the graphics. Let&#8217;s ship this and see how well it does.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Lasse</title>
		<link>http://www.mobhunter.com/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-79668</link>
		<dc:creator>Lasse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 10:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moorgard.com/?p=235#comment-79668</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure we would have had a game called something with Warcraft even if there were no prior MMO or MUD history. However, I doubt it would have been Massive Multiplayer.

We would probably have had more games like Neverwinter Nights too. That type of game is the logical progression from tabletop RPG to multiplayer game.

Most other multiplayer games have evolved from single-player games either by allowing cooperation (perhaps extended with PvP dueling) or letting other humans play the opposing forces: Diablo (8 player max, coop or pvp), first person shooters (8-64 players PvP or team-PvP), real time strategy (4-16 players coop or opposed), RPGs - e.g. Baldur&#039;s Gate, Neverwinter Nights (6-8 player story-based coop). 

It&#039;s a testament to existing MMO&#039;s that people have used Neverwinter Nights to create MUD/MMO-like persistent worlds. It was not a given from the game design.

The step from game to virtual world came with MUDs: Unlimited simultaneous players and, more importantly, a persistent world. A game world that exists even when I&#039;m not in it. 

The rest has been slow evolution. Looking at the text-commands in Everquest (e.g. /emote) shows a direct line of evolution from MUDS. Meridian 59 was even closer. WOW was hevaily inspired by Everquest (and by other games inspired by Everquest), just as Everquest was inspired by what came before it. It has been a slow evolution, with most of the DNA of MUDs still present in modern graphical MMO-RPG&#039;s. The games today are more alike than they are different, and most of the &quot;fancy new features&quot; of MMOs can also be found in modern muds.

The only real quantum leap was the shift to a persistent world, and that came from MUDs.
The rest are details.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure we would have had a game called something with Warcraft even if there were no prior MMO or MUD history. However, I doubt it would have been Massive Multiplayer.</p>
<p>We would probably have had more games like Neverwinter Nights too. That type of game is the logical progression from tabletop RPG to multiplayer game.</p>
<p>Most other multiplayer games have evolved from single-player games either by allowing cooperation (perhaps extended with PvP dueling) or letting other humans play the opposing forces: Diablo (8 player max, coop or pvp), first person shooters (8-64 players PvP or team-PvP), real time strategy (4-16 players coop or opposed), RPGs &#8211; e.g. Baldur&#8217;s Gate, Neverwinter Nights (6-8 player story-based coop). </p>
<p>It&#8217;s a testament to existing MMO&#8217;s that people have used Neverwinter Nights to create MUD/MMO-like persistent worlds. It was not a given from the game design.</p>
<p>The step from game to virtual world came with MUDs: Unlimited simultaneous players and, more importantly, a persistent world. A game world that exists even when I&#8217;m not in it. </p>
<p>The rest has been slow evolution. Looking at the text-commands in Everquest (e.g. /emote) shows a direct line of evolution from MUDS. Meridian 59 was even closer. WOW was hevaily inspired by Everquest (and by other games inspired by Everquest), just as Everquest was inspired by what came before it. It has been a slow evolution, with most of the DNA of MUDs still present in modern graphical MMO-RPG&#8217;s. The games today are more alike than they are different, and most of the &#8220;fancy new features&#8221; of MMOs can also be found in modern muds.</p>
<p>The only real quantum leap was the shift to a persistent world, and that came from MUDs.<br />
The rest are details.</p>
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		<title>By: Raph&apos;s Website &#187; MUD influence</title>
		<link>http://www.mobhunter.com/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-79596</link>
		<dc:creator>Raph&apos;s Website &#187; MUD influence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 01:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moorgard.com/?p=235#comment-79596</guid>
		<description>[...] the obvious (yes, you can tell what side I am on in those debates!), Steve Danuser says over at Moorgard.com » Sacred Cows I get tired of people implying that today’s MMOs owe their entire existence to the MUDs of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the obvious (yes, you can tell what side I am on in those debates!), Steve Danuser says over at Moorgard.com » Sacred Cows I get tired of people implying that today’s MMOs owe their entire existence to the MUDs of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Keen</title>
		<link>http://www.mobhunter.com/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-79498</link>
		<dc:creator>Keen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 02:26:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moorgard.com/?p=235#comment-79498</guid>
		<description>Consider me in the bullpen warming up, ready whenever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Consider me in the bullpen warming up, ready whenever.</p>
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		<title>By: Moorgard</title>
		<link>http://www.mobhunter.com/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-79296</link>
		<dc:creator>Moorgard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 02:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moorgard.com/?p=235#comment-79296</guid>
		<description>Lumness - Ya, I know EQ is DikuMUD and WoW is EQ. I&#039;m a baby boomer in this whole timeline, remember! But if Brad et al hadn&#039;t done it, someone else would have made EQ without DikuMUD ever existing. It would be a different EQ, but we would have had a 3D client for a D&amp;D-like universe. And WoW would have been inspired from that.

Keen - I serve up the metaphors just to let you take a swing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lumness &#8211; Ya, I know EQ is DikuMUD and WoW is EQ. I&#8217;m a baby boomer in this whole timeline, remember! But if Brad et al hadn&#8217;t done it, someone else would have made EQ without DikuMUD ever existing. It would be a different EQ, but we would have had a 3D client for a D&#038;D-like universe. And WoW would have been inspired from that.</p>
<p>Keen &#8211; I serve up the metaphors just to let you take a swing.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolfshead Online &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Why They Hate Richard Bartle</title>
		<link>http://www.mobhunter.com/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-79295</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolfshead Online &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Why They Hate Richard Bartle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 01:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moorgard.com/?p=235#comment-79295</guid>
		<description>[...] lots of folks are upset with Richard Bartle including players, bloggers and some MMO developers. Why? On the surface it&#8217;s because he has the temerity to speak his mind and tell the truth by [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] lots of folks are upset with Richard Bartle including players, bloggers and some MMO developers. Why? On the surface it&#8217;s because he has the temerity to speak his mind and tell the truth by [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Robots Need Love Too &#187; Archive &#187; Generation War: MMO Style</title>
		<link>http://www.mobhunter.com/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-79286</link>
		<dc:creator>Robots Need Love Too &#187; Archive &#187; Generation War: MMO Style</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:34:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moorgard.com/?p=235#comment-79286</guid>
		<description>[...] Danuser, designer from 38 Studios, noted on the generation gap now existant in the MMO genre, giving it props for being old enough to have this gap, and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Danuser, designer from 38 Studios, noted on the generation gap now existant in the MMO genre, giving it props for being old enough to have this gap, and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Keen</title>
		<link>http://www.mobhunter.com/?p=235&#038;cpage=1#comment-79285</link>
		<dc:creator>Keen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:30:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moorgard.com/?p=235#comment-79285</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;What this boils down to is that you have the Old Guard protecting their sacred cows, and the New Guard (many of whom have World of Warcraft as their primary or sole point of reference) questioning their elders.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Then you have those of us who have been around since the old guard first surfaced and recognize that the sacred cows (and their guards) have their place... out to pasture where they may live peaceful and happy lives NOT trying to hinder the forward motion of this growing industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;What this boils down to is that you have the Old Guard protecting their sacred cows, and the New Guard (many of whom have World of Warcraft as their primary or sole point of reference) questioning their elders.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Then you have those of us who have been around since the old guard first surfaced and recognize that the sacred cows (and their guards) have their place&#8230; out to pasture where they may live peaceful and happy lives NOT trying to hinder the forward motion of this growing industry.</p>
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