Secrets of Faydwer Preview

by Loral on November 04, 2007

The world of Everquest moves ever onward. Last week, under the careful guidance of Rashere, Everquest's lead designer, I was able to preview the strange new worlds found in the Secrets of Faydwer, Everquest's fourteenth expansion. Overall the expansion looks strong. It contains many new zones, over thirty missions, multiple tiers of equipment progression, five new levels, and a focus on single group hunting. The clockwork theme may either excite players or leave them cold, but the design looks excellent. Whether it includes enough to hold players for an entire year, especially in this post WoW world, remains to be seen.

The story of Secrets of Faydwer involves the gnomish necromancer, Meldrath the Malignant, who unveils a floating fortress over the lost lands of Faydwer. Were-orcs, powerful undead, brownies, and the mechanical creations of Meldrath all threaten those who enter the lost lands. Secrets of Faydwer also continues the story of the Sleeper, the dragon Kerafyrm lost since the last days of Velious.

Graphically, the new expansion looks excellent. The brownie village and the new Crushbone-like dungeon of were-orcs feels like something you would see in Everquest 2, not Everquest. This game has come so far since the low-resolution flat textures of the original release in 1999. Like other expansions, Secrets also upgrades one of the older zones, this time Steamfont Mountains. The graphics of the new draconic zone is beautiful but still remains true to the artwork and architecture of previous draconic zones such as Skyshrine and the Sleeper's Tomb.

SOE chose to remain conservative with the expansion of Everquest. This is a smart move considering the general negativity of the massive changes to Star Wars Galaxies. Everquest has evolved quite a bit over the years, but each evolution is a small change to the larger and consistent game built eight years ago. Secrets of Faydwer includes many refinements implemented in previous expansions including single group instanced missions and a tiered spell system. Secrets of Faydwer doesn't include any specific new gameplay features, but rather chooses to focus on enough zones, missions, equipment upgrades, and character level improvements to keep players busy for the next year.

Remaining conservative with Secrets of Faydwer is a good move considering the recent radical inclusion of a collectable virtual card game in both Everquest and Everquest 2. Attempts at revolution can still take place, but with as much hanging on the line as there is for Secrets of Faydwer, it is best to focus on the areas that have clearly worked and keep the radical ideas in the incubator a while longer.

Secrets of Faydwer marks the end of the six month development cycle for Everquest expansions. Instead of continual progression every six months, we now have a twelve month period of time until the next large set of content comes out. Secrets of Faydwer is built to give enough content for both raiders and non-raiders to, hopefully, fill those twelve months. Five new levels and a multi-tiered equipment progression system are two ways they hope to keep people playing over this period.

While The Serpent's Spine was intended to rebuild the lower and mid-level game of Everquest, Secrets of Faydwer focuses on the high level game. Secrets includes four tiers of content for players who prefer single-group hunting and high-end raids beyond the power of the current highest power raid zone, Solteris. While most Everquest expansions offered zones, encounters, and equipment for both raiders and single group hunters, the lead designer's description of Secrets of Faydwer focuses on high level single group play.

However, Secrets will contain twenty eight new high-end raids many above the current top raid zones for those few guilds who have cleared such areas. Secrets of Faydwer includes two raid zones with multiple progressive raids all above the Solteris level.

Equipment progression is one of the few main differences between Secrets of Faydwer and previous expansions. Equipment power will go up in large amounts in order to build tiers that require a certain power of equipment before one can proceed. In order to ensure players cannot jump a tier, the power of this gear will have to be high. No specific numbers were mentioned, but expect to see much higher power equipment than in previous expansions which leaned towards more conservative gains. This tiered equipment power level is a cornerstone in ensuring that Secrets will keep players busy for a whole year.

This expansion also marks a turning point in SOE's marketing for Everquest. Rather than releasing a single stand-alone expansion, SOE will release only a compilation pack that includes the basic game and all expansions. This is a dizzying amount of content in a single box; over four hundred unique zones and instances. If one considers the cost of the original game and $30 for each expansion, it includes over $400 worth of expansions for $40. However, for those of us who actually bought every expansion, this $40 pack is the only way to purchase it. That's a $10 price jump over the traditional expansions. Given the amount of time people spend in game, that's still not a lot, but at this price point one must consider it against the equally priced Burning Crusade expansion for World of Warcraft.

One sure way to ensure the success of an expansion is to include a character level increase. Secrets of Faydwer takes characters from level 75 to level 80 including all of the spells, disciplines, and alternate ability increases included with any level increase. These levels should take roughly the same amount of time as leveling from level 70 to level 75. Each time the level limit increases, older spells and equipment falls out of power. Focus effects on previous high-end raid equipment will become reduced or go out completely. All of this helps to push players forward into newer and more powerful areas but sometimes not without complaint.

Secrets of Faydwer has a lot to offer and, with the need to keep players involved for a year, it better be good. SOE took the best pieces of previous expansions and built it into a single large expansion with a focus on high-end single group play. Multiple tiers of loot, five new levels, and new high-end raids should keep players busy but, with a new Warcraft expansion on the horizon and the strength of Warcraft overall, SOE has an uphill battle to keep what players it has and to bring any new players in. From everything seen in the preview, however, Secrets of Faydwer looks to be a strong expansion.

Loral Ciriclight
4 November 2007
loral@loralciriclight.com

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Comment Posted by: ElemLap on November 7, 2007 11:53 PM

This is a nice review Loral, thanks!

It seems this expansion would be interesting for the existing players who have not quit EQ after all these years of dealing with Class, Group and Content problems... And the nerfs hitting once beloved classes here and there.

The $40 price for Secrets of Faydwer which includes all of the previous expansions does not actually make difference in attracting of the NEW players.
It would just make slightly less expencive for the existing players to start the second account to be able bot their own alt, powerlevel them etc.

Anyway, I am curious where would SOE find new players willing to spend two to three years of casual play time to gain levels from 0 to 80, along with 500AA, being forced to solo trough levels from 0 to 60 or so?!
All that bearing in mind that by the time such new player would get to level 80 their Class would possibly go trough few revisions (read - nerfs) and would no longer be interesting to play exactly at the levels one would try to reach?

Actually, I would be willing to pay $15 a month to be able start the new character at the Level 75, with 500AA's and decent equipment on some new Server for players who would prefer to skip the slow initial character progression and development.
But it is a BAD idea, of course ;)

Therefore I'll be doing what I am doing - playing some newer and less problematic games that are fun :)

PS
/sigh
I use to love EQ!

Comment Posted by: ASIC on November 8, 2007 02:40 AM

Any news on when the new WoW expansion is being released?

Comment Posted by: Johnny on the Spot on November 8, 2007 01:36 PM

Actually Everquest will continue it's revitalization imho. By taking the "conservative" or incremental approach to balancing issues and new ideas, etc, EQ provides more stability than games like Eve Online which is writhing from the convulsion of having it's natural progression ripped from it's chest through dramatic nerfs.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on November 9, 2007 12:03 PM

Level cap increases certainly do sell expansions, but they also make old content obsolete. Combine that with new tiers of gear that are a substantial improvement over the past, and it sounds like SoF will be the most mudflationary expansion since at least PoP.

So it sounds like for at least non-raiders the expansion will be the game. The only people with a reason to do the older content on a regular basis will be those who are behind the curve and don't meet the requirements for SoF yet. That's not necessarily bad: it's how The Burning Crusade worked in WoW, and it looks like the next one will be similar (no, no date yet ASIC).

But it does raise the stakes. If SoF is a great expansion and has enough content to last the year until the next one, all is well. But if it turns out to be a bad expansion (and some have) people can't just ignore it. They'll end up quitting instead.

I have to comment on nerfs and changes too: my experience ranged from early Velious to Omens of War, and if you compare hunting in Old Seb "back in the day" to BoT or VT or WoS or MPG, the playstyle really is quite different. It tends to sneak up on you though, because of a couple clever things SOE did: 1) they mostly introduced changes in new content rather than changing existing content and 2) the most important changes were made not to the player characters, but to the mobs and zones.

Comment Posted by: Armarant on November 9, 2007 04:19 PM

Elemlap wrote: I am curious where would SOE find new players willing to spend two to three years of casual play time to gain levels from 0 to 80, along with 500AA, being forced to solo trough levels from 0 to 60 or so?!

..

and that is the big reason WoW is doing so great in comparison. people may make fun of it and call them names in EQ but World of Warcraft does not require you bring friends to enjoy and when the low levels become sparse and thinned out it will still be fun for people because of the ease of playing the game.

Comment Posted by: Aarkan on November 11, 2007 12:46 AM

I miss the game that was simple enough that you could just go to Thurgadin or Shadow Haven and talk to people and learn everything there was to know. Finding groups wasn't tough and everything you earned you felt was special. Those times are long gone though especially in EverQuest and I don't know if there will ever be another game that can replicate those feelings, at least not for me.

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 11, 2007 01:56 AM

Aarkan, I think that alot of those feelings are gone for good, not so much because of changes in EQ, or MMOs in general, but because of changes in us. I remember the exquisite thrill if running at level 10 from Qeynos to FP, the wonderfull feeling when some older player gave me 5pp just to help me get going, being in awe of that level 35(!) player standing at the Qeynos gate. Those where great times. In trying other games, none have ever even come close to replicating that. I am left with the belief that the problem is not with the games, it's that the genre is no longer new to me, that I know I can recover from a mistake, that in a couple weeks, I will be that level 35 player, and so on.

It took me over 2 months to get a character to level 20 when I started EQ(I started during Velious era), with many wrong steps, failed experiments(ok, so JC is not a good get rich quick scheme when you are starting out with no money), a couple lost corpses, and so on. I wonder how far I could get in EQ today in those two months, starting out with nothing more than I had then, except for more knowledge.

SoF sounds like it has alot of promise, but that does not mean much. I thought OoW sounded terrible, and ended up loving it, I thought DoD sounded like the worst expansion ever, and found it to be one of the best. I was more excited about PoR than almost any expansion, and now rank it as the worst ever. TSS was going to be great, and from what I saw in beta, was sure of it, and yet it was a big reason I left EQ.

There are alot of questions...Is there going to be enough content to keep players interested for a year? Will raiders find challenges outside raids? Will nonraiders be able to work their way through the tiers of progression, without getting overly frustrated? Will nonraiders finally have a way to work through the storyline of the expansion? How long will it take to get the inevitable tuning mistakes fixed(ie, that mission that just about requires a raid geared tank to finish, but is intended for nonraiders and needed for progression)? Will the insane amount of mudflation add to the game, or detract overall?

With a one year expansion cycle, these questions are pretty key, and the answers will tell alot about how long EQ will remain a success.

Comment Posted by: Loral on November 11, 2007 08:44 AM

That's a great post, Redhenna. I think you hit the nail on the head. As the industry moves on and MMO FRPG players begin to expect different things, we can't get back to the magic we had when we spent an entire weekend hunting Cockatrices on the north wall of Karnors in the Dreadlands. As the industry has "matured" so have we and we begin to expect new things than we once did. We expect them to solve a way for new players to catch up to old veterans. We expect easy quest systems and dynamic instanced encounters. We expect to never have to camp for any particular item or mob for more than a few minutes. Yet it was some of the pain back then that made the game so magical.

Again, great post. Thank you.

Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on November 11, 2007 07:10 PM

Back to the question of Hot Zones ..

the old ones were difficult to get to, hard (or impossible) to find a group in and sometimes suicidal to play in.

The new zones (some of them anyway) are GREY to the levels (and below) supposed to play in them so ...

zero exp x bonus exp = zero ... huh?!!

BUT I AM SOOOO HAPPY WE DON'T HAVE TO INDIVIDUALLY LOOT EVERY ITEM when we die in the SoF Exp. Hurrah !!

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 12, 2007 04:00 AM

It seems to be in vogue with some one to complain mindlessly about hotzones(which has zero to do with the topic these whines are posted in. Just out of interest, I once again looked at the hotzone list to see what the crying is about, and if it was as innacurate as last time. So here is the current hotzone list:

Level 20 The Castle of Mistmoore
Level 25 The Permafrost Caverns
Level 30 Trakanon's Teeth
Level 35 The Warsliks Woods
Level 40 The Dawnshroud Peaks
Level 45 Velketor's Labyrinth
Level 50 The Deep
Level 55 The Temple of Droga
Level 60 Nobles' Causeway
Level 65 The Halls of Honor

Other than Trak's Teeth and Warslik Woods being swapped in the place on the list, it's a solid list again. Nothing more than 15 minutes to get to, some nice, underused zones. Once again, nothing to complain about here, unless you are desperate to find *something* to complain about.

Last article, you tryed to convince people you needed faction to get to DN(you don't), and that it was a long trip(it's not). This article, you throw a fit because of an obvious transposition on the list of two zones. Let's make a big deal out of nothing, yet again.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on November 12, 2007 10:57 AM

Redhenna indeed hit on one of the main issues with nostalgia and familiarity with the game. When I was playing Final Fantasy XI, I took a nasty trip as a low level to get from one town to the other. It was a long trip, taking me about 2-3 hours. I had to go through some midlevel zones I had never been to before in a game I was not so familar with. Any mob that agroed my character was certain death.

When the trip was over, I had a few minutes of disappointment. I thought back to my first trip from Freeport to Qeynos and how I felt as I made that trip. It was electrifying, knowing that death was right around the corner. I was afraid of everything, and it was so gratifying to finally get safely to the new town.

At first, I thought something was wrong with FFXI, that the trip didn't have the danger level of the EQ trip, that there was something missing. Then I realized that what was different was me. When I took the trip with my new character in EQ, I felt that dieing was catastrophic. I was afraid to lose my character and didn't know if I could even get him back if I died. I knew that the effort would be huge (by all my experience in the game). Now, I know that the tiny bit of effort in that character could be replaced easily, even if the character was completely wiped out. The FFXI character could easily be replaced too. Sure, a few days of effort, but nothing in the long run. I also knew how to go back and recover a character I lost in a zone and all the risks involved, even if I was unfamiliar with the game mechanics. The danger element was gone...forever. Without that element, and the uncertainty it provided, there was low risk and no excitement.

I have so many memories of long struggling recoveries from disaster in EQ. No modern game had the element of risk that was provided back then or forged the bonds between me and other players that that risk provided, and I don't expect any future game ever will.

Those are fond memories, but they are only nostalgia. I can never get them back, because I have changed. I see the game so differently these days.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Teremar on November 12, 2007 02:43 PM

The first time you play an MMORPG it looks like a world, so you react to it as a world. Sooner or later you figure out it's a game, and start reacting to it accordingly. Our minds are all too good at filtering out the irrelevant and focusing on the vital. ("Who cares if it looks like an orc or a giant beetle--how does it con?") It helps to slow down and look around, but it can't really be reversed. ("Cool city; where's the bank?") Changing games may get the magic back for a few hours, but that's about it.

I think being an MMORPG veteran also changes your approach to rewards and what you're willing to do to get them. After retiring a few ultimate items (think of the original epics) getting the next one is much less motivating. My epic is nothing but a memory now, and frankly some of the memories of getting it are not happy ones (in particular that ten-hour Fear raid). I'm not looking to make that mistake again--I want to have fun while I play now, not just get shiny rewards.

You say that it was some of the pain that made the game so magical back then Loral, but I suspect what really made it magical was the illusion that the pain was worth it. Nothing teaches that EQ is just a game like playing it for a few years.

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 12, 2007 03:22 PM

I think overall there are three things that change, all related, that cause the change of feeling we get. We ourselves change, the games change, and the overall playerbase changes. As each change, aspects of the other two change, either inevitably(as the individual players change, this changes in a small way the playerbase), or in reaction(WoW had a huge effect on the playerbase, by attracting younger players, with different expectations, and as the playerbase gets younger, the games change to cater to that playerbase).

When I started playing EQ, I never saw it as a 'world', but as a game. Still, being goal oriented, I set goals, and enjoyed the challenges to attaining those goals(different motivations can yield the same reactions), be they running across the world, grinding enough money to buy that new shiny I needed in EC, or some nights just recoverring my corpse from the bottom of Dalnir. Waiting for the boats was not a trial, it was a chance to skill up swimming.

Now, I have no patients for waiting on that boat, the thought of dragging a bunch of people from doing what they want to help me get my corpse sounds horrid, auctioning endless hours in EC just is not an acceptable use of my time. I, as a player, have changed.

EQ, and all the other games have went from a model of passive timesinks(boats and other forms of travel for example), to active timesinks. It's more common to have a long arc of quests in a game, as opposed to having a single quest that just involves hours of killing, and waiting, sometimes days, for that super rare spawn(which drops the needed piece super rarely).

The playerbase as a whole is younger for the most part(this differes by game, as EQ/EQ2 both have a noticably older playerbase than, say WoW), less interested in lore, less patient with passive timesinks. All these are gross generalities, but I think generally true.

Now my question is how much each of these changes is reactionary to changes in the other two. Did the playerbase get younger, due to the games changing to appeal more to younger players, or did the games change to appeal to younger players due to the change in the playerbase? If things like corpse runs, slow travel and auctioning where still the norm in MMO's, would I be more accepting of them now? I dunno the answers, but these are the kinds of things I think about when driving long trips, with nothing to keep my mind active, or when doing mundane chores like mowing. Teremer brings up some great examples of the changes to the players themselves(I laughed aloud reading those, and seeing myself in some of what you wrote), but I think the changes go beyond that, and some of your generalizations are not neccessarily accurate across all players(I loved long, difficult wipe filled Fear raids myself, both as a challenge to overcome, a chance to socialize and have fun with a bunch of people, and that feelingthat if I screw up, it was going to have a real impact on people).

Comment Posted by: anonymous on November 12, 2007 04:40 PM

Some great comments.

I can sum it up like this tho:

Unless you are Drew Barrymore, You only get one First Kiss.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on November 12, 2007 05:10 PM

I loved the break-in to Fear--that was some intense fighting--but after two or three hours I was ready to be done. I never did like waiting for the boat though, even if I was leveling swimming at the time.

Comparing early EQ to late EQ to early WoW to current WoW it seems to me that there's been significant progression towards what I personally have always liked and away from what I always disliked in most aspects of the game. I suspect that's because while it all started with "MMORPG's by the hardcore for the hardcore" (and I was never hardcore) they've found there's a lot more money in designing for a broader audience. That broader audience includes both older and younger players (though I agree the average has probably dropped) as "hardcore" tended to be an early-to-mid-twenties thing. Which, incidentally, means that a lot of former hardcore EQ players have simply "aged out"--another reason for change.

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 12, 2007 05:47 PM

I am in my 40's, and one of the hardest of the hardcore players, no matter what game I play. I was never in the most 'hardcore' topend guilds(you are right that the average age of most hardcore players is younger, and at my age, I never really fit in well with the younger player age, more hardcore guilds...though I could manage a juvenile temper tantrum pretty well at times), but my playstyle was definately very top end hardcore. My favorite raids where the ones that took hours and hours(I think Uqua and Sendaii are my all time favorite raids), and I always wanted things harder.

Comment Posted by: Ghost of Zek on November 12, 2007 09:18 PM

Just thought I'd chime in on a few thoughts here.

With regards to the whole "you can never go home again", "she's lost that loving feeling" sentiment;

1) Yes, the user base has evoloved. But that's not the whole of it. After all, the Lord of the Rings movies where captivating not just to new comers to JRR, but to long times fans as well. It's not enough to say, been there done that, not interested any more.

2) The SOE developers make several choices over the years that very intentionally made it so that there was no "home" to go back to.

2a) Racial starting cities where aboandoned in favor of a non-descript newbie mine, with all players being tossed into the Plane of Knowledge. Quick pause here. They are dumped into the PLANE OF KNOWLEGE. A previously unreachable otherworldly nexus point where GODS have been known to walk. Kinda hard to be awed by A_Giant_Rat, when on day two of playing your bumping around with people who just killed your God that you pray to.

2b) Almost all (most but not every) expansion has tried to pull the player base away from already existing zones, attempting to make everything before it irrelevant, rather than complement it, and expand upon it.

2c) SOE has made specific changes to leveling that make it harder than ever before for new players to advance and participate. That's a direct reference to the AA exp changes that effect people grouping. Don't ask me, just read the forum and try to find some real honest up-beat love for the new system.

Today's MMO developers are definately dealing with a more demanding audience. That said, an immersive world that is substantially "bug free", that offers a fun, and interactivity can be incredibly successful. Just look at Second Life. There's no "quests", no "AA's", etc., and the user base makes up most of the content. Yet as a social medium, it's popular.

That's 99% of the issue I think IMO with modern EQ. SOE strove so hard to make the next "big" thing, that they forgot to make sure there was a fun way to be social.

After all. Most good "I remember when..." stories about EQ in the "good old days" involved being social. Wether it was selling stuff in the EC tunnel, or fishing on the Freeport docks waiting for a boat, it was the social nature that drove it.

Forcing grouping doesn't = being social. Not when the rules for what you have to do in order to be in a group drains the "fun facor" out of getting into the group.

Anyway, just my 2cp.

Comment Posted by: Loral on November 12, 2007 09:30 PM

"2a) Racial starting cities where aboandoned in favor of a non-descript newbie mine, with all players being tossed into the Plane of Knowledge. "

For the record, those starting cities were abandoned by players, not SOE. Those cities were empty before SOE ever chose to make Knowledge and the mines the new starting area.

It was pretty depressing to join into a whole new MMO and find yourself as the only person in the city.

Comment Posted by: Aarkan on November 12, 2007 11:08 PM

Around the Pop-LDoN era (which I truly loved) GFay and Cabalis and Freeport and Qeynos ALWAYS had people. Not tons but there were enough to ask questions and maybe get a little group on orc hill or in the pit. Yes, certain cities were always abandoned like Grobb and Oggok and Erudin but those players migrated to Neriak or Qeynos and there were people there. What really irks me whenever I'm wondering which of the many MMO's i've played to renew and give another shot is that I can never return to the Freeport that I loved, as that zone is no longer in the game. Nor can I go back to the Oasis of Marr or get a group for Miragul's Menagerie. That's what I find truly depressing about EQ, it's fondest in my memory. Unfortunately SWG is the same way, the two games that I really loved and gave everything to are completely different than what I played. It sort of makes me wish I had played Dark Age. At least EQ2 and WoW are there for me now, all those memories I can still relive.

Comment Posted by: Ghost of Zek on November 13, 2007 03:23 AM

Loral,

To some extent your correct. However they left for a reason.

2b) Almost all (most but not every) expansion has tried to pull the player base away from already existing zones, attempting to make everything before it irrelevant, rather than complement it, and expand upon it.

SOE's design method as consistantly failed to build upon the existing. Rather than build on the lore, the "history" of the races as evident in thier homes, they chose to act as if the previous content simply didn't exist.

You can't lay the blame at the players feet. The game designers made the environment what it is.

Comment Posted by: playah on November 13, 2007 12:10 PM

WoW Patch 2.3:

"Leveling from 20-60 will be much faster as the XP required to level has been reduced and quest XP has been increased. When the patch goes live, your experience will be modified so that the percentage that you have to go to your next level will not change (though the raw number of XP that you have will change).
Each level will require 15% less XP from 20 to 60
Quests between 30 and 60 will give more XP, increasing substantially as you get closer to 60
Many outdoor elite mobs will no longer be elite. The example given is Stormgarde Keep in Arathi Highlands
60 new quests will be added to Dustwallow Marsh
The level ranges for dungeons will be reduced so that mobs at the entrance and ad the end of an instance won't be quite so far apart. The example given is Shadowfang Keep which will change from an 18-25 dungeon to 18-21, though they suggest that a party of 18s would find it nearly impossible.
Dungeon gear will become substantially better for these low-level dungeons, adding new stats and upping existing stats on the items that drop. NEW! Any gear that's in your bags or equipped when the patch goes live should update. This may imply by exclusion that anything in the bank, mail or auction house will not be upgraded."

Sigh...Blizzard, I love you.

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 13, 2007 04:42 PM

First, a question: Why does the 'Remember personal info?' buttons seem to do nothing?

Ghost of Zek, some interesting comments, but I have to disagree. Your point 1, LotR movies where not interactive, which makes them a whole different kettle of fish. Also, adding together the running times of all of them, it still works out to under 10 hours about total entertainment. We are still learning the basic mechanics of a game after 10 hours. It's a completely different situation.

2A: By the time I started playing EQ, several stating cities had already been mostly abandoned. EC was *the* gathering spot, so most expereinced people would make any new toons come from that area(no shared bank at time, so easier to twink them by having them close as well). Qeynos had not even half the people FP had running around. When Luclin came out, Nexus started being another popular gathering place, and PoK(along with the now working bazaar) pretty much finished off the home cities. There where still peole in some, but not many, not enough. All of these shifts in hang out spots where player driven(though admittedly with good reason), and SoE reacted, and made the tutorial, so that new players would have other players around them. I do not think that by the time the Tutorial was seen as needed by SoE, that there was really much of a way to revitalize the starting cities to make them truly viable. In hindsight, it is not hard to see the forces that drove the abandonment of the cities, but I am not sure it was nearly so easy to predict beforehand. Further, I think starting new players in a central location is a positive, at least now.

2B: I do not see this so much, at least not on an active level. New expansions offer new content, which players tend to naturally be drawn to, as it is, well, new. I have been playing EQ2 lately, to be with some friends, and right now, am anxiously awaiting patching to finish, and servers to come up, so that I can run and see the new content. I am excited about it. This is not due to some sinister plot of SoE's, but a natural reaction, like a kid at christmas. The only time that moving into new content feels at all forced is when the level cap raises, as the new content is pretty much needed to level.

2C: I read up on the AA changes, to see what you wheretalking about there, and I am torn. I can see the concern,, but the difference in power granted by levels is so extreme that a group with 4 65's and 2 75's(as an example) could so outdo any group of 6 65's, by such a large extent, that it does seem best to penalize the exp to an extent(this is the issue you where talking about?).

I find it interesting that you brought up Second Life. When I left EQ, a friend of mine who is an artist mentioned she was dabbling with Second Life, to see if she could make something of a success there with her(amazing) artistic talent, and asked me to give it a try, so we could hang out and chat. Turns out Second Life seems to be a hangout for online perverts, and while I am pretty open minded, it got incredibly annoying quickly. This is part of why I don't think using Second Life is the best thing to do. Second Life is a different animal, it's more a graphical chat program than anything else. It is an MMO, maybe MMORP, but there is no 'G' there. it's not a game. It's success derives from entirely different avenues. Immagine what EQ's population would be like if they removed the mobs and quests.

Your comment "SOE strove so hard to make the next "big" thing, that they forgot to make sure there was a fun way to be social." really puzzles me. Maybe I expect different things in the social aspect, or maybe I socialize online differently than you, but for me, socializing was not something that lacked in any way, shape, or form for me. I socialized pretty much constantly from the time I logged on, till the time I logged off, and enjoyed it. What exactly do you find lacking about the social situation in EQ, and what do you think SoE could/should do about it? I don't ask this to be difficult, or to make light of what you are saying here(I think it is important), but I am truly mystified by the comment, and it seems to be at the heart of what you are getting at.

Moving on, your next comment is: "SOE's design method as consistantly failed to build upon the existing. Rather than build on the lore, the "history" of the races as evident in thier homes, they chose to act as if the previous content simply didn't exist." I got to disagree. Looking at the expansions, RoK, velious and Luclin, well, in these cases, ya, a case can be made for what you are saying. But PoP build directly on previous contents lore, as did LoY(the most underrated expansion ever to my mind), and to a certain extent so did LDoN(though poorly, LDoN lore was just atrocious). GoD broke away from existing storylines(sorta, mostly), but OoW continued that storyline(and the lore contained in those two expansions was wonderfully well done). DoN was built on existing lore, as was DoD, and PoR. In point of fact, most expansions built on storyline introduced previously, as does SoF(*cough* meldrath, Kerafym *cough*).

Comment Posted by: Teremar on November 13, 2007 04:50 PM

The XP changes in WoW do have some slight relevance if you know the context: the announcement that they'd be increasing the leveling rate came shortly after the announcement that the next expansion would be exclusively for level 70+ characters. In other words, Blizz saw where most people were at, decided to design for that majority, and then gave those still catching up some help in doing so. SOE would be wise to do something similar.

Comment Posted by: Ghost of Zek on November 13, 2007 08:30 PM

Redhenna,

First, thank you for the responce. One of the brutal issues of comment posting is it's not nearly as interactive as sitting in a room with friends talking points over. So issues can be muddled. Let me tackle trying to expand upon one aspect of what I said so that maybe you can see the point I'm trying to make.

First. Yes, I agree that some of the expansions did build upon existing 'lore'. But that's where they for the most part stopped. Lore, used as a justification, not tied directly to anything players could see or touch. A paragraph added into the front of a marketing letter.

Let me elaborate so that hopefully you can understand my point better.

Let's take the dark elves as an example.

Pre-Kunark, we knew a fair amount about dark elves, and there was a lot of reason to be a dark elf (cute girls in red thongs aside). There was the conjectured existance of hidden travel routes and we new there was a king and a queen, and we knew it was a troubled marriage bed. We just couldn't yet drop by and pledge our loyalty to either royal line personally, but we knew it was only a mater of time.

Kunark was released and despite the presense of dark elves on the new continent, there was a surprising lack of quest ties between the new and the old.

Time moved forward, the lost access to Luclin was re-made. We learned in lore that dark elves played a major role in this pivitol place. Yet again, there where no new quest lines, no candelstine commerce between Neriak and Luclin. Nothing to enrich our beloved home city.

The wheel moved forward, intrepid adventures learned of ways to access the planes of the Gods themselves, mortal races challenged the Gods for supremicy, yet, oddly the temples of Neriak where baren of word of this event. The clerics of the God of Hate had no word, no comment, no commands from thier God, nothing. Oddly though, the guards in Freeport could still tell our religion (maybe our pants where too tight and they could see by the 'cut', what faith we followed), even though our God remained silent to our pleas.

Oddly near this time frame we learned for a brief moment that the King and Queen where in strife, there where talks of a palace revolt. Even more oddly, no one in all these years had actually seen the palace in its secret location past the "Third Gate", and still no one had unlocked the secret methods of travel hidden for years beyond the braizer.

And so it continued, and progressed. Eventually all reason to honor the heritage of the dark elves was stripped away. New dark elves where not even born in the capital city, but rather found themselves born as captives to the mongrel race of kobalds, and once escaped found few compelling reasons to ever seek out the lost king and queen.

SOE has used "Lore" much in the way that the amature role playing game master uses 'lore' to tie together a bunch of misfit store bought modules for a paper and pencil role playing game. Lore is often created ad-hoc when trying to get a buy off on the players in the group so that he/she can run them through the new module.

The sense of immersion fade with each passing month, the feel of being in a story line, or a grand campaign dulls. Eventually what is left is a simple hunger for greater power, more exp to tally on the back of the page, and the hope that the next monster you slay has a magical sword better than the one you where already using (despite the fact you can't fathom where the monster was storing the sword in the first place).

The point is simply this. SOE has as a design method failed to keep previous expansions relevant.

The game designer, developer, lore masters, and story tellers, need to, for the sake and the health of thier games, keep all aspects of thier game world relevant and meaningful.

When they fail to do so, it's not the players fault that they fail to keep going to places that are no longer worth the time/investment.

Comment Posted by: magicman on November 14, 2007 04:21 AM

I so agree with you Redhenna ,a very nice post and right to the point. there is a lot of content lost in the story line. i think SOE lost the concept of a great story line that goes with game play.

i think SOE needs to hire a few good story tellers to fix the story content of the game. EQ (was) like a great novel that you got to act out a part in.

Young people will come and go ,but use old times are there bread and butter and myself i want contect.theres other games that i can wack and hack mobs ,but thats mainly all they are..

Comment Posted by: magicman on November 14, 2007 04:27 AM

that was a type-o ment ( Goust of zek )that i agreed with.

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 14, 2007 04:43 PM

I agree with magicman, that was a nice post Ghost of Zek, and I agree, it is much easier sitting around talking in person, with a more active give and take, to understand what some one is saying.

I agree that what you seem to want, a more all emcompassing storyline, and quest arcs for an expansion that are outside of the expansion, but tie it in(am I close there?), would make EQ better. I would be hard pressed to argue otherwise, and generally I can argue anything.

I suspect the reason this is not the case, is in part that it would have, at one time, raised difficulties for those who did not own certain expansions, that it would have added a great deal of complexity to developing of expansions, and that, at least at first, SoE/Verant did not know that EQ was going to take off like it did, and did not plan far enough into the future...by the time it was apparent that EQ was going to be a long running game, they had a working forumla, and it can be hard to deviate from what does work(though frequently, doing say can pay large dividends).

When EQ was plopped out there on the market, it was advertised, and to an extent had the feel of a world that players where thrust into, with little to no direction. It was up to the players to provide that direction. The first two to three expansions really felt that way, go out and make your mark, as you choose to make it. What storylines there where, were much smaller in scale. It was not untill PoP that a really large, grand storyline emerged. Players where given a direction(well, raiders where, nonraiders not so much), and it really felt like we were working through a story, with ourselves as the heroes of that adventure. Most expansions though, just felt like more was being added to the world. This is what had worked for SoE before, and so they did it again. PoP, GoD, DoD where the only expansions where I really felt like a part of a grand story.

I think you are right that more of that, story arcs, continuity with the older world, would be a definate improvement. I do think that SoF, from the sounds of it, has at least some of this, it continues a story from before at least.

I also think, and have been commenting on this for three plus years now, that nonraiders need to be more actively included in the story aspect. PoP was wonderfull for raiders, not for the gear and the challenges alone, but for the wonderfull feeling of being part of the story(even though the story was kina lame). Nonraiders need awesome quest arcs, that draw them into the story, with nice endings like there was in PoP. Some of that is there, but it is so buried, so unneeded, that it is easy to miss.

Have we arrived at something closer to an understanding now?

Comment Posted by: xsi on November 14, 2007 05:30 PM

Honestly, Redhenna inadvertently has hit upon something that I've often thought or felt about EQ since its inception, and which has, in my mind, actually gotten worse as time went on.

When EQ, Kunark, and Velious, (and even, to an extent, Luclin), came out, we as players were presented with whole worlds of gameplay, with ancient storylines, differing factions, and a very wide-open sandbox type feel. It was up to the player where they went, who they allied with, and what they did.

The addition of an overarching storyline in PoP and subsequent expansions, to me, turned the 'world of everquest' into the 'game of everquest.' Suddenly there was an intended journey from point a to point b, and we, as players were funneled in the direction the developers wanted. For me, expansions like GoD typified this trend. You have long hallways packed with mobs who have absolutely no reason for being situated there except to give you something you have to fight through to move on. (Compare this lazy approach with dungeons like Seb with its distinct areas and micro ecospheres, or even dungeons like Karnors or Lower Guk)

To me, once SOE decided to make EQ about the 'storyline of the day' (read: expansion), they made it about the CONCLUSION of that storyline... which focused the players that much more on the endgame. It also resulted in an incredibly disjointed world, where, for example, one guild can be inadvertently helping Mayong ascend to demi-god status, (in DoD), while another guild is experiencing his home plane post ascension, (PoR), and still others are working to depose him, (in TBS). All while the red skylines indicate even to people working on Anguish and OOW that something 4+ expansions later is going on.

Linear storylines don't really work in MMOs in my opinion. If you want to have a world changing event, it actually has to change the world, (as happened with Chardok or even Grobb > Gukta > Grobb). By instead creating these expansion-specific storylines, SOE has just (again, in my opinion), further hurt any concept of immersion... which is tough to do in a game already featuring respawns.

To me, EQ at its heyday was a huge world with a hundred disparate storylines, some with their roots in antiquity, some still emerging. Now, it has become a world of discrete timelines matching specific expansions, each rarely offering more than a linear journey from point a to point b.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on November 15, 2007 11:36 AM

Good comments. I suspect it was simple efficiency that killed the old style though. Suppose a dev spends the time to make a really cool quest line involving the kind and queen of Neriak. Who gets to do it? Just the dark elves? Anyone evil? Do they make a really cool quest line involving Felwithe and Firiona Vie at the same time to balance it out? They can construct the quests such that some parts are the same for both sides (WoW does this all the time--an Alliance quest and a Horde quest to kill the same mob, for example) but then the differences between the two sides become mostly cosmetic.

Obviously it's far more efficient to make one quest that everyone can do. But you're right that it makes for a much less immersive world. Your choices get reduced from "What path will I choose?" to "How far will I go down the one path that's available to me?"

Comment Posted by: Ghost of Zek on November 15, 2007 08:17 PM

On account of Redhenna and I seem to agree on something, and knowing that agreement with me is one of the signs and the apokolyps, and feeling a need to avert such calamity, I thought I'd follow up my last post with a hand full of ex-play (still would like to be a player) suggestions on how to bring back relevance to the dead zones of the game. My goal in the following is to suggest relatively painless methods SOE could use to bring back what I personally feel was the sense of immersion.

1) Some zones/expansions have lost relevance and use not because they where badly made, but because design choices made later by SOE have rendered the zones/expansions poor choices for players based on a bad balance of risk vs. reward vs. time needed to invest. One of the icon examples of this is LDoN. My suggestion for LDoN should not in reality take more than a few hours effort on the part of a SOE employee. The solution is simply this, edit the database so that more LDoN points are awarded per complete adventure than are awarded now. Start off simple, multiply the amount by 2. If LDoN becomes the "only" thing people are doing, then shave the amount back by 10% until a reasonable level of use is obtained. If still no one is using them, then increase the amount by another 50%. Continue to tune as needed. If people are excited about doing them at 20-30 as a gear up path, you've succeeded. If people are screaming "nerf" everytime you decrease the amount, and you note only level 65+ are using them, then get the clue, listen to the user base and stop nerfing things, go back the other way.

2) Add new commerce based NPC's to each starting city. Realistically each race should/would have interestes in exploiting each newly discovered area/plane. Exploitation means riches. Riches means merchants. Use the DoN quest system and add a new NPC that requests items that drop from each expansion. Don't I repeat DON'T worry about being perfect and balanced on day one. Do it one NPC, one expansion, one race, per day. On Monday, add a dark elf merchant that is looking for a moderately common drop from the Field of Bone. On Tuesday add a Freeport NPC that is looking for worm silk from Luclin. Have the merchants award faction and minor coin. now just keep adding and expanding. Kick this stuff live daily if at all possible. Get immediate player feedback. Tune and advance it. You get two things, you add daily new content much to the joy of your player base, and you get constant feedback.

3) This one takes effort, but shouldn't take all that much. Bank space is gold, in any MMO with bank space. Break the tie between banks. Make each bank a seperate storage vault. trade skillers will break all known speed records just to gain faction with opposing cities in order to open up new storage venues.

4) This one also takes some effort. Break the ease of access to PoK. The "planes" where originally to be accessed by levels 46+. Re-build that access, and add PoK access as a key. Add one quest to each home city that requires a 2 to 4 hour quest cycle to gather up lore regarding your race/region and take such to a lorekeeper in your home city/region.

5) Last one also takes some effort. Take away the tutorial. No self respecting Dark Elf, High Elf, or Iksar would let themself be captured by koblads in the first place. Re-start players in thier home cities.

The above of course are just off the cuff ideas. One players quick suggestions, dreamt up in the void of a conversation between one person an himself. The player base as a whole could offer a hundred or even a thousand times more suggestions. Both straight forward, and complex. The key is SOE willingness to invite the discussion and then, rather than offering up smoke and mirrors and a promise of a better day at some point in the future "when there's time allowing"; instead dedicate themselves to showing real action in the here and now.

Anyway. The point I'm mostly trying to make here is that some, not all, but some changes could occur on litterally an overnight basis that would start to make the game as a whole relevant. Even more could be done by a single game designer using simple straight forward existing mechanics on a daily basis. Better still, the effects would grow upon each other.

The game world could be made to feel like a living breathing whole again. But it would need an honest and open effort by SOE to do so.

At the end of the day, it's not enough to say EQ has "more content than anyone else". If only 10% of that content is relevant to todays players and only 2% of todays players will even see all 10%, then if anything, EQ may be smaller today than at any time in the past.

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 16, 2007 01:24 AM

Since, as you point out, our agreeing is a sign of the apocolypse, I suppose it is time to go into full disagreement mode, just for the good of the world. Thankfully, in this case, we have now reached the point where this is easy. I do, in all honesty, disagree both with your suggestions individually, and as a whole.

On your point one: Some zones have indeed lost their relevancy due to poor design. Look at pretty much 90 % of the PoR expansion for an example. A large number of other good zones are no longer relevant, due to the simple fact that most players are above the level of those zones. You could have a level 20 LDoN give 1000 points, and these would still be rarely used, as there simply is not that many people of the appropriate level to do LDoN's. Add in the fact that LDoN gear, while it was nice at the time, has been superceded by much nicer gear available from the bazaar, and I think your plan is doomed to fail.

On your point 2: what exactly would be the goals of these quests? What would draw a level 70 + player to run around, kill grey con mobs to complete these quests? I just do not see it, without a much larger reason behind it.

on your point 3: Interesting idea, but I think you would see as much outcry as happiness over doing something like this. Tradeskillers might like it, but everyone else is going to be annoyed at not being able to go to any bank to get their stuff.

Onto point 4: I think this is a bad idea both because the ease of access to PoK is, to my mind, a positive, and because I think it is a bad idea to present new players with a timesink just to get access to the common meeting points.

And for point 5: Again, I think this is a bad idea, simply because there are not enough new players to support grouping at low levels in all the starting cities. The tutorial gives new players a chance to get in and almost right away have access to other players, and learn the social aspect of the game. While it might be nice for the immersion factor, as you mention, it would be practically a bad idea overall.

You have a good point that not all of EQ is really relevant to most players. This is true. It does not make the content unused, but less commonly used. I know that playing on twinks, it was rare to see no one in a low level zone, but rarely more than a couple people, outside of hotzones.

This brings us to the big, overall problem with your idea. Below a certain point, maybe level 70 or so, there are, simply put, not alot of active players, not many on at one time. In an effort to make all areas 'relevant', you are going to spread out these few players over a large number of zones, which I think is an incredible negative. The ideas of hotzones, the ideas of making TSS a 1-75 expansion, the idea behind tutorial to PoK, was to try and bring these limited numbers of players together. I think that is a good thing.

I think we can all agree that EQ needs new players, just to sustain itself, and offset the inevitable attrition(people like ourselves, who moved on). New players starting in graphically dated, deserted zones is not going to be presenting a positive early impression. At least now, they see other players, running around and doing things.

Comment Posted by: Ghost of Zek on November 16, 2007 02:05 AM

Redhenna,

If we make the buy off that EQ is at this point essentially a game for the existing level 70 and above players, then I agree 100% with your assesment of my suggestions.

That said, if we choose to suggest that EQ has as a possible future the ability to mold itself back in to an integrated whole of a game in which all zones/content are relevent to the health of the game, that they serve some function in the vast expanse of the game then, I would have to suggest that some changes need to be made.

So that said. If you today where given the task of adding relevance to the game as whole, re-intgrating lost zones, homes, story arcs, and lore. What would your top 3 suggestions be. Keep in mind I'm talking relevace to the whole of the gaming community, not just the "existing few" or thier "alt twinks". But rather, what suggestions would you have to the developers to reintegrate 14 "expansions" into "one game world"?

i.e. Tag, your it. Your turn to make sure we don't agree ;)

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 16, 2007 02:34 AM

I don't suggest that the game is only 70 +, only that this is where the vast majority of players are, and as such, it limits the ability to make older content relevant, without larger overhauls. Since, to play the game, I got to make suggestions so you can pick them apart as I did to yours, I am going to use that as a starting point. Warning, my suggestions are going to be significant large and difficult.

1: it's time for active lore, and game events to support that lore. By this I mean storylines that result in changes to the game world itself, along the lines of the froglok stuff, where frogs moved in, took over, and then got evicted. Your comments about the bedroom issues with Neriak could be a good starting point. Let's use that storyline, bring into it a war, maybe add a pocket zone(like Chardok B) where the storyline plays out, and at the end of it, revamp Neriak(that one hurts, as I loved the way old neriak looks, but then again, EQ2 Neriak is gorgeous too).

2: In relation to these changes, and as part of these active storylines, let's make some fundamental changes to zones. Revamp, combine and condense. There are nearly as many 1-20 zones as there are 1-20 active players. Let's change that. Use the Ro changes as an example.

3: As part of these storylines and revamps, let's take some of the old dungeons, revamp them, and make them high level content. While in the past, this has mostly not gone over well, I think part of this is due to crappy design. If we assume good design(big assumption, I admit, but it's possible), throwing out the old, and starting anew, this could work out well. Let's use Befallen as an example. As part of the active storyline mentioned above, one faction of Dark Elfs(I admit it, I do not know dark elf lore well) is thrown out of Neriak. These Dark elves take up residence in Befallen, throwing out most of the undead currently in residence there, and converting others to guards. Make it level 80, super hard content. Run this whole starting line starting about 5 months from now, lasting about a month, with new, high level, dangerous and hard Befallen going live at the end. This takes some old content, makes it relevant to todays players, shrinks the world a bit for new players, bringing them hopefully closer together, and adds content when it is needed.

4: One thing I initially hated in EQ2, and have grown to like to an extent, is using quests to guide players. With RoK released, I made a Sarnak Coercer, and started, untwinked. I did a few quests at spawn place, and then the quests guided me to a new area, for a few higher level quests, that then guided me to a new area, for even higher level quests. Let's use something like this to bring new players together. Let's tie it to hotzones. When a player is punted out of the tutorial, guide him/her to a questgiver, who steers this player to the first hotzone, with a quest resulting in a nice peice of gear for going there. Keep this series of arcs going, and using them to bring new players together.

Ok, so I had 4 instead of three. I realized too late that I needed that 4th part to make it work acceptably for me. My overall idea is to shrink the world in the underused area, and add content where needed, and to actively draw players together where they are thinnest. It would be a slow process, but I think it would result in a better EQ, and one which is more friendly to new players, and old players alike.

By the way, this has been a most enjoyable, if way offtopic(sorry Loral) discussion.

Comment Posted by: Aarkan on November 16, 2007 02:36 PM

Redhenna, during Velious era they had Befallen get taken over by Dark Elves. I believe a part of... I forget the name right now.. Lanys T'vyl (sp? Innoruuk's daughter) 's faction.

Though it would be cool to see again... probably cooler in EQ2 though.

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 16, 2007 03:03 PM

Ya, I have vague memories of Befallen as being converted to a high level zone, a big outcry, and being converted back. This was shortly after I started playing, and not at all sure of the details.

Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on November 17, 2007 07:11 PM

Ghost is so much more tuned into "normal" players than Red is!

The early zones were creative and immersive ... the invisible bridges (before in-game maps) ... terrifying zone up into Hate .. heart stopping break into Fear .. secret walls ... evil tunnels under the cities, danger of falling to death in the Hole, need to actually PLAN and think in Velks to achieve victory, triggered raid encounters in Acrylic Caverns, need for a trusted group/raid for corpse recovery (anywhere), reasonable keys to zones (like Old Seb) and on an on.

Now, every zone is just like all the others, only higher level with outrageous drops. Same old grinding .. without the danger, fun and engagement... which is why a lot of seasoned and/or returning players are making new chars to experience the thrill of the old zones.

It a mystery to me why FV is now evil, why Fport needed a revamp when it's empty anyway and was fine just as it was ... why change the RO's? .. also empty ... then make Mistmore a high level zone only to switch it back to the fun zone it originally was? And if the MM s are insignificant and useless, why put the effort into creating them only to nerf them? The racial starting cities were where we learned to play our classes rather than just PL them in POP zones. Not to mention SOE misnaming the hot zones which is NOT a given that new players and a lot of seasoned ones will know no matter how much Red blusters. It's basic stuff.

We are not all hard core guys with a group of friends who are aggressive raiders who find that getting to DN without guild/group help takes 10 min for a level 55, only to find the zone empty and the mobs impossible to fight. That's ridiculous.

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 18, 2007 12:24 AM

See now, I have done all that, and more. I remember playing alts a couple days, waiting for some one sle just to do Fear, so I could get them to rez my corpse waiting there. I remember having to get my corpse summoned bya necro 3 times one day in the Hole(One of my favorite dungeons). I remember having to plan to win.

I draw different conclusions that you though. AG is not just like every other zone, nor are any number of other examples. If you are seeing them as just alike, you are not seeingwhat is really there. There was, when I retired, a lack of challenging content(as you suggest you want, though everything else you post suggests otherwise), and I wanted more. The nerfs to AG and FC where the worst thing I can immagine, as it did take any need to plan ahead to win away.

You have lots and lots of complaints, mostly kinda silly, and not one bit of solution. And then you get back to your pet rant, that the hotzones are somehow not right. It's childish in the extreme to whine just because something is not exactly as you want it. After I, and otehrs pointed out that getting to DN is actually prety easy, you still keep the rant going. Maybe it is hard for you...but that tells us more about you than EQ. And when I make real suggestions, to help bring players together at lower levels, you just complain that there is no one around. My sugestions might be good, they might be bad, but they are more than you have added.

There is a significant difference between mindly ranting about EQ, and actually discussing it with people who have divergent opinions. The discussion here was interesting, and, while offtopic, pretty entertaining, till you decided to ride your one trick pony again, comlpain about hotzones once again, and dismiss some one who disagrees with you as not normal, all without adding anything constructive to the discussion.

So take the challenge...how would you do things? How would you reviatlize the old zones? How would you ensure there are enough people in these zones?

Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on November 18, 2007 03:18 PM

Well Red ...

I would start by doing a lot of stuff that SOE has already said many times they don't plan to do... like unlock the old flagged content that anyone who hasn't already seen probably never will because it's just not worth the time and effort. There are some really beautiful and interesting zones that are entirely deserted now.

I would make all zones with same level content give equal rewards (excepting new expansions which, understandably, SOE uses as a carrot). It might not revitalize any of the old, fun zones but it would be a player choice, not an SOE choice to play there or not.

I would stop wasting design time revamping old zones which no one uses and are not improved by having designers mess around with them - FV, Ro and Oasis - FPort etc. Their time could be much better spent thinking of creative content like we saw prior to GOD.

I would fix the exp & rewards in all the MM s and LDONs so, as Ghost pointed out, players can choose where and how they want to play and not have SOE decide for them . If they want to sit for 10 weeks in a row doing MMs ... let them. They are paying for the game and if thats fun ... let them do it.

Some players want places to solo .. make sure they have a few choices at every level. SOE has said EQ is designed for groups. OK. Fair enough but provide SOME solo content for those times when there isn't enough time to find a group but want to play anyway or just not in the mood to group.

I repeated my comment about the hot zones to point out the fact that whoever sets the zones is NOT paying attention if they don't even know the levels of their own zones or make any attempt to correct a mistake when they make one. Further proof that the SOE employees are just messing around - last night a GM Skelly had a ball sitting at the Moors zone-in killing everyone repeatedly. It might have been funny for 5 minutes, but after an hour or so of interrupted questing it was just childish and annoying.

I think it's terrific that now we can loot all and constantly hear comments from all levels how they love that feature. And there are lots of features that sortof spoil the adventure and immersiveness - like the ease of travel and corpse recovery, but we wouldn't want to give them up now.

I like the entire TSS expansion except that it's supposed to be self contained and yet, a Drakkin can't ever be epiced without leaving and some of the specialty quests require leaving also. This makes no sense.

TBS also has some interesting puzzle zones and, except for the horrible city that takes forever to cross and faction that takes a million battles to build up, is fun to play in and easy to find a group for.

OK .. now I have given you some ammunition to fire back at me.

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 18, 2007 03:48 PM

First, I have zero issues with unlocking old zones. I doubt it would make any real difference, but it does not bother me at all. AS you stated, devs have repeatedly commented it won't happen, and probably won't as some would throw a fit over it, but to me personally, I have no problem at all with this. At what point would you unlock flagged zones?

I disagree to giving all zones the exact same reward. Harder zones(ie dungeons, etc) should have a larger reward, as the danger is higher. Further, I think hotzones play an important role in trying to bring together players at those levels where players are fewest. I think this is very important.

The point of zone graphic revamps is to help keep the game current. I don't think they have been done overly well, but I do understand the reasons. You can't draw in and keep new players when NPCs are block figures, and a large part of the game looks crappy in comparison to other games. While you and I might enjoy the old look and feel ofthe zones, due to it bringing back nice memories, new players are just going to see an ugly, outdated zone.

LDoN rewards are fine, more points probably would not hurt, but I still doubt they would bring in many players. EXP in LDoNs is as good to better than most non-hotzones of that level. I loved LDoNs for alts for quick, easy exp. MMs are another issue. I am against MMs for significant rewards, as I think players should play their own characters, to advance those characters. The whole "I payed my money, I should be able to do whatever I want" argument does not work. There are other players in the game as well, and balance is important...and no risk content, where you do not even play your own character is inherantly unbalanced.

A transposition on a list is not 'don't know the levels of their own zones'. The current list does content content at all levels, meaning they did acomplish what they should...then they messed up typing up the list. Welcome to being human. Your comments about the GM sounds bad, and if that is what did happen, it was a poorly run GM event, which is too bad, as GM events can be fun.

You bring up an interesting point, that does referr back to how this whole thing got so completely derailed from the original topic. At what point does improvement ruin immersion? Does ease of travel ruin EQ, or focus it more on actively playing? Does corpse summoning in the lobby make EQ too easy, or just get rid of something tedious? Personally, I think these things make the game better, but I have always viewed it as a 'game', even while admitting that immersion was stronger when I started. It's something for each player to judge for themselves. I do know that these features are not going away.

Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on November 18, 2007 06:27 PM

Sitting at a newbie zone line killing everyone can hardly be called an "event"! And if you are such a purist about playing your class the old fashioned way ... what about the card game? Those booster packs are selling for 100K in the Bazaar. The LDONs were always unbalaned in their reward system and are largely deserted now.

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 19, 2007 03:21 PM

Again, I repeat, if the GM 'event' happened as you describe it(and I have no reason to not believe you), then it was poorly concieved at best. I am not going to defend it.

In reference to the card game: I could go on at great length about it, but to summarize, it is an abomination on the face of Norrath. I have no issue with SoE wanting to make money from EQ/EQ2(they are a business, that is there job), and find comments that SoE is just in it for the money, or that SoE is 'greedy' to be amusing...but the card game is an example of being greedy without regards to the players that bring in the revenue. In game items that affect gamaeplay should, always, come from playing the game, not running up a charge bill. It does not matter how big or small the effect is on gameplay, if it does effect it, then it should come, solely, from playing EQ.

LDoNs are largely deserted now. That is an absolute truth. So is most other content in that level range. The issue is not so much with LDoN's, or the system, but a much bigger issue, one with a small pool of players at that level, spread over a large world.

Comment Posted by: Ghost of Zek on November 20, 2007 01:53 AM

There you see, I get distracted for a weekend and PvP breaks out on the blog. Actually, having chosen as my moniker a reminder of the old Zek servers and the lost special rules PvP, I'm not really likely to feel bad over some PvP and sparing.

That said, I wanted to toss a question out to you Redhenna; if your up for continuing the complete derail of Loral's topics.

At core I think you and I agree on many points, more so than we probably know. The rift in ideals I think comes in what we think the "goal" playerbase should be. Be it the "existing", or "something else". I won't try to define what I think your point of view is, rather I'm going to toss out some questions, and try in my own meandering way to answer those same questions. In that way, even though SOE may not reap any reward or insight, we may at least in our own minds and perhaps to each other, clarify our own points of view.

So to start, I'd like to toss out a couple of questions.

1) Do you think that SOE "should" persue expansions/new content with the existing player base as it's primary motivation, and if so, how would you describe the existing player base?

2) If you could remove three (3) existing features from the game, what would they be, and why? These can be things mentioned previous, or new, no limitations set or expected.

+

Okay, now so no one can think me as unwilling to plunge into the chilly waters first I'll ramble through my own answers to the above.

1) I'd have to say as much as it pains me to do so; no. Don't get me wrong, I have several friends that are still avid raiders, I was a raider, I don't dislike "raids". But that said, I had at one point far far more friends that where social gamers, that due to the escallation factor and the expanding waistline of EQ found themselves disenfranchised and eventually feeling like it was a dispondent event to log in and find that they weren't wanted in groups anymore because thier aa levels or gear where not up to par with people "the same level". I think that for the health of the game long term, and I'm talking potentially decades here, that SOE would be better off looking to bring in a more social, slower paced player, someone who wants to escape from reality, but "have to" compete. Here's why. I think the existing player base can be compared to a surfer (waves on the ocean type surfer, not the internet kind). If you caught the wave and your riding it, hanging on, having fun, pushing though expansion after expansion, seeing AA's and new gear constantly acrue and your with the leaders of the pack on that front cusp of the wave, all is good. The problem occurs when you loose the wake, and you suddenly find yourself on the back side. The wave is going faster and faster, building higher and higher, and no matter how fast you paddle from behind, you won't catch it. In a nutshell, anyone not on that leading edge sees the content racing away from them, and the "pack" is less and less willing to share the wave.

2) As for three things I'd remove. Here goes.
2a) Expansions... No, not future expansions. Past ones. Something Redhenna said was crystal clear truth and should be repeated. A huge issue with the low end game is there's too much of it. Litterlly too many zones, too many places to go, and almost no real reasons to go to any of them particularly. So to start, I'd say EQ needs to go on a diet and loose some zones. I'm all for fond memories, but so many of the expansions have offered 1-70 or 20-65 zone expansions. The result is the game is bloated beyond use in too many ways. If I where a mad gnome necromancer in a new expansion with raiders pissing me off, I'd summong some neather deamons and rain some moons down onto Norrath. Maybe crash some meteors into Luclin too. Blow up some zones, get rid of them. Give the player base some focus as to where to go. Oh, and I'm not just talking like levels 1 to 30, I'm talking levels 1 to 75. Seriously, have you really looked at the number of places you "could" go at 75? In a nutshell, new expansions with added levels with new zones for those levels = good, more zones for exisiting levels with more places to not find people = bad.

2b) EQTCCG. Okay how can I say this. Leaching money off the remaining player base by selling virtual items into the game via "booster" packs is contrary to the basic premise the game was designed around. If SOE really honestly wants to move to a "micro-transaction" payment method, I'm fine with that. Do it; Flyff and Archon Online are both fun games based on that premise. But don't "say your against the sale of virtual in game property" and then do it yourself. In short, if EQ is about buying booster packs, then stop charging monthly fees to play and just collect micro payments. If it's about charging monthly fees and having an even playing field, then stop with the card game.

2c) This is something of an augment to my answer on 2b; and it's this: remove the exploiters... Yes, some of the worst are long term accounts, some are long term guilds, but don't talk about making a fun "game" where cheating isn't punished. Basically I'm talking about banning all the plat seller accounts and the people that are buying the plat. I'm talking about the people using Xylobot and other applications to create dual-box, tri-box and even six-boxed set ups where macros and scripts are doing 99% of the play. In a nutshell, I'm suggesting that SOE stop "saying" they are tough on cheaters and that they actually start banning sufficient people to make a dent.

Okay that's my rambling for a day, maybe a week. Your turn Redhenna; I look forward to your reply.

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 20, 2007 02:56 AM

Awesome post, and I will answer your questions, but I do want to, quickly, comment one one thing as another issue, but one that I find to be important. You made this comment: "a dispondent event to log in and find that they weren't wanted in groups anymore because thier aa levels or gear where not up to par with people "the same level"". I find one aspect some what at odds with my experience, that being people not wanted due to not being up to par. There may be some truth as far as levels, but overall, I, and most of the people I knew, never considered gear, or AA's, when making groups. I remember taking a 60something cleric with no AA's to a nest group, just because we wanted a healer, and she was the first one on LFG list. It was a bit rough at times, but we had no problem with it, had fun, and she said she got great exp, so all was good. I remember an enchanter friend just had come back to EQ, invited him to a group to replace a monk, and found out he did not have a high enough level mez to mez where we were. We stumbled through and had fun. Stories like this are more common than not among the people I knew, and this being among high end raiders. There are some dicks out there, true, but I think people get this overall bad impression of the top end people, based just on those bad few. Sorry for the derail, but I do think that us raiders sometimes get a bad reputation, that is not warrented, and find I feel a need to correct it.

1: Good question, but I think the question itself imposes an artificial limit. I think SoE should work to retain the players it has, *and* work to gain new players. I think either without the other is inherantly self-defeating. To keep the old players, SoE needs to continue to add new content, new quests, new levels, new AA's, new items, new challenges, etc. EQ has enough players, now, to be considered a major success for the company. It's not WoW, but it is a revenue of 3ish Mil dollars a month. If those players start to leave, it will take more and more players, just to keep the playerbase at the current size.

On the other hand, there is, and will be, a continued attrition. You and I are both examples of that. New players are needed just to offset this attrition. In the end, SoE is a for profit business, and if attrition lowers the playerbase to the point where it looks like EQ is going to be, soon, unprofitable, look for them to pull the plug on it, or at the very least, reduce expenses, which means fewer new things, fewer bug fixes, and will accelerate the slide. So there is a real need to do something for new players.

I have a real suspicion that the EQ part of SoE wants to do things like advertising to draw in new players(I think the 1-75 aspect of TSS was planned at one point with an advertising blitz to coincide), but that somewhere, some one with corporate made the descision that the return on advertising dollars was either not worth it, or the gains would not even pay for the cost of advertising. Yet without that advertising, it will be increasingly difficult to bring in the needed new players.

I would describe the current playerbase as topheavy. Go to any server, start doing /who all class 10 - 20, then 20-30, and so on. Note the numbers. You will probably not get more than a few of any, untill you get to about level 70. Most active players are 75 +. Most characters under 75 + are alts. It is important to point out that most is not the same thing as all. it is also important to point out that, just because most players are 75 +, does not mean that SoE should ignore those players who are not that level.

2: Three(3) things to remove...this is hard. I am going to forgo mentioning the card game, as I do not consider it an EQ feature, just something that is tacked on to draw revenue from EQ, nor am I going to mention exploiters, because that should go without saying(anyone who knows me knows I take a hard line on exploiters, I am not trying to dismiss the importance of removing them, preferably permanently, only that it should not even have to be mentioned that these should be removed).

First is something we aree on to an extent, and that is zones. I don't mean rip them out of the world, drop comets on them, or whatever, but consolodate zones. To make an example, Odus. Make the zone Odus, and make it include Tox, Stonebrunt, Kerra, Erud's crossing. Tack in the dungeons in appropriate spots, and you now have 4 zones condensed into 1. This one zone can have progressively more difficult content(stonebrunt had content up to 55ish?), but if people go there, they are more likely to see another person in zone, if only on a /who. This would hopefully make the world seem more like a lived in place. It has to be depressing to a new player, going to all these zones that seem to be ghost towns.

Second, I would remove the old quests. All of them. Rip them out, and replace them, using the new quest interface, and keeping in mind a goal to draw players together. As you rip each quest out, look at it, examine if it is still usefull, and if not, leave it out. If it is still usefull, revamp it, put it in the new quest system, and put it back ingame. Add new quests to replace alot of those that are not going back in. Make the rewards at least somewhat usefull. I might miss the old quests, but if the new quest system, and new quests, make for a more new player friendly atmosphere, then I will get over missing the old quests.

thirdly, get rid of bugs. People love to exagerate how buggy EQ is, or how bugfree WoW is, but the truth is, EQ has too many longstanding, annoying, bugs. A pattern tends to form. Players start to get bored, or disenchanted for whatever reason, with EQ, and their patients for the bugs that are there drops dramatically. New players have their server crash a couple times that first week, and don't even bother sticking around. I don't use all caps for anything often, but this next needs it. JUST BECAUSE THE BUGS ARE HARD TO FIX DOES NOT MEAN YOU SHOULD NOT FIX THEM. Hard is not an excuse, not to not fix it, not to delay fixing it. When bugs are found, they should be a top priority for some one. Further, reward players for finding bugs and reporting them. Do a raffle each week of all the players that have submitted verifiable bugs. Give an award each month for the best written bug report. Keep a public list of known issues, and update their status(excluding ones that involve exploits obviously).

--------------

Truth is, most to all of this stuff that both of us mention is not going to happen. Too long, too hard, too costly. It is still an interesting excercise to see how we think about things to do with EQ. When we start to do things like this, we learn, I hope, that even though we may have played at different ends of the spectrum as far as player types, and had different goals ingame, but you, I, and RosesAreRed have some common ground(even if we maybe don't want to haveto admit it).

Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on November 20, 2007 07:57 PM

I think it's pretty common for a tank to ask a cleric about mana and visa versa re HP. I don't know if that would prevent them from playing together necessarily, but a cleric with no AA would have trouble keeping a high hp tank alive and the tank wouldn't be able to protect his cleric.

This isn't too much problem in a big raid when a raid leader will probably group players of similar abilities together but the question does get asked. The lower powered players are gonna die at some point anyway and anything they have been able to contribute is a plus .. unless they do something stupid and cause a wipe.

And I pretty much agree with everything in Ghost's posts. Once you get behind the crest of the wave, unless you want to invest massive amounts of time, you are just never going to catch up ... if that's what you want to do. There is no way to compete with players who are multi boxing and playing hard core daily.

Comment Posted by: Ghost of Zek on November 20, 2007 08:35 PM

Redhenna,

Thank you for writting back. All good comments btw. I agree that consolidation would be a great way to reduce the number of zones and to help the bloat. Also I have to say no one who's played EQ more than two years could disagree with you on the bug issue. SOE has got to learn at a fundamental level that they generate a lot of negative PR by failing to address long outstanding bugs. With regards to your reply comments on groups and levels vs. gear and AA's; my gut says it may have something to due with different social cultures on different servers. The Nameless which was my virtual home for 7 year very quickly (pre-kunark) grew a somewhat elitist culture. Warriors especially suffered due to a stigma of not having "maxed" defensive AA's right about the time OoW became popular among the hobbiest player crowd, and the trend expanded swiftly after that. The fundamental problem is I think that SOE continues to release content using "level" as an advisory, when level+AA far more accurately models thier design theory and style post-PoP.

Anyway, so, as the next venture in detrailment of the board I thought i'd toss out a two new questions, ideally to everyone who reads;

1) If you could have one developer work on one issue for one day to fix one issue (or a set of very related issues), with the idea that the issue(s) would have to be done/complete/fixed within that 8 hour period; what would be the issue and how would you suggest the developer tackle fixing it?

2) If you no longer play, what where/are the top three reasons you stopped playing, and if those three reasons where "fixed", would you start playing again?

+

Okay my answers to start off the run;

1) - One developer, one day, one issue: DoN Cultural Armor drops. I'd grab the house Ogre and have him increase the drop rate on all cultural drops by a factor of three, and I'd have the DoN specific drops drop outside of the instance at the same rate as in the instances (times the aforementioned 3). All told, shouldn't take even 8 hours, and if it pissed off Absor in the processes, I'd even bring in danish and coffee for the whole office.

3) Actually despite the bloat, the bugs, and the feeling that I was watching more and more content roll into the game that I'd never get to see, period-ever. There's not three reasons; there's just one. Rashere pushed into game a re-build of the way AA exp is calculated. It's net effect was two fold. First for groups, if you where the lowest level in a group you could and sometimes did find yourself in situations where AA progress was minimal at best despite the difficulty of the content to you personally. Secondly as a person who was no longer a raider and was now a primarily solo-hobbiest player, it resulted in about a 30% reduction in AA gain doing the exact same things I'd been doing. In net sum, for me, advancement had boiled down to a personal persuit of AA's in order to be able to try to tackle harder and harder content. Suddenly finding that I was going to have to work even harder for the same results was the final nail in the coffin so to speak. i.e. limited time, limited fun, take away 30% of the fun, suddenly playing Puzzle Pirates was looking pretty good... And yes, if Rashere pulled the re-do of the AA system out and put the system back to what it was, yes, I'd re-up my account, both to EQ and to EQII for that matter, hell, I might even register a V:SoH account, lol.

Anyway, nuff said!

Comment Posted by: ElemLap on November 20, 2007 10:22 PM

Nice exhange of opinions going on! In a very small circle as it seems :)

I agree if life was perfect many of the suggestions voiced out in this thread would make EQ a lot more interesting and fun to play.
And so would many of other suggestions but what's the point?
EQ developers have had their own opinion on things and had shown the clear tendencies to back out of their previous wrong decisions only two but most likely three years later.

As for doing things right... I think that WoW developers do it right :)
I've played EQ for 7 years, being hardcore for at least 5 of them.
But once dropped out of Raiding in search for recovery from being burned out...
immediately found that there was no life in EQ outside Raiding.
The whole LFG disaster, hours of attempts to make a group or to get invite in to one. Days after day spending hours trying to make group.
Have no idea why SOE wanted casual players quit out of their games rather then give them an alternative to have fun in the content.

As I read the SOE Class forums there was an opinion from an Enchanter player that those of the Enchanters who wanted to quit would not change their opinion in the new expansion.

Few nice spells everyone was asking about were finally given to Enchanters.
Does that fix the game issues? Not so much for those who have to start over, from start.
Not the grinding, not the unfairness of the system where those who have got their quests done have no motivation to repeat these quests for others.

Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on November 20, 2007 10:52 PM

"But once dropped out of Raiding in search for recovery from being burned out...
immediately found that there was no life in EQ outside Raiding.
The whole LFG disaster, hours of attempts to make a group or to get invite in to one. Days after day spending hours trying to make group.
Have no idea why SOE wanted casual players quit out of their games rather then give them an alternative to have fun in the content."

Exactly ...

Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on November 21, 2007 01:20 AM

Raiding is fun and exciting for melee and damage chars ... but extremely BORING for buffers and healers .. they spend most of their time watching health bars and making sure buffs don't wear off and trying not to die.

Gets old fast.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on November 21, 2007 12:04 PM

This has been a very good discussion, I think the best that has been on Mobhunter for a very long time. Thanks Ghost and Red for the fine discussion. It is thought provoking and interesting.

Ghost, I can tell you are out of touch with the tradeskills and the new cultural changes that were rolled in prior to the latest release, as well as the new upgraded cultural armor. Just to let you know, Ngreth completely revamped the cultural armor and redid all the quests for being able to make the armor in order to make it so every race used the same quest and the difficulty for doing the quests was not absurdly easy for some and absurdly hard for others.

The drop rates went from being in instant zones to being on the global drop tables from level appropraite mobs of appropraite class (pelts from animals, silks from spiders, ores from golems, all TS drops from humanoids). There are still some inconsistancies, but Ngreth has been adjusting the drop rates pretty much every two weeks or so. I expect he'll have things ironed out sooner than later.

He also split the tradeskills so that drops for skilling were separated from the drops required to make the armor through a template system. This means that he can controll the finished products entering the game separately from the expected skill up rate for players. All in all, the cultural armor is leaps and bounds better than it was before.

I'd say that your number one thing to change in the game is pretty much being addressed, though it is taking more than one eight hour day.

I'm not a big thinker on how to modify things, but I'll take a shot. If I had a dev for a day, I'd put him to work on itemization. There are, and have been for at least two expansions back, silly things. The shields in SOF are rediculously weak. Armor has focusses on it that no one that can wear the armor uses, like fire focus for plate wearers and parry for casters. I will say that a lot has been done to make changes to itemization with the new release, and the group gear has been substantially improved, but the group weapons are still quite weak compared to the armor.

I think this task is larger than a one day task, but certainly someone should sit down and figure out a plan for getting these issues resolved in a fairly short time. It is silly that itemization issues in one expansion cannot be resolved prior to the release of the next expansion. The day should be spent determining what changes need to be made and a plan for completing the work within a month maximum.

I am still playing, so the other question is irrelevant.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 21, 2007 04:46 PM

I do think that we should at least appologize to Loral, as we have, pretty much entirely, hijacked his article. Sorry Loral, we did not mean to do so, but we got rolling, and it's too interesting to us to stop. It was an unintended hijacking at least.

To touch on a couple side orders first, before getting into the meat and potatoes part.RosesAreRed, I have never asked another player their stats before inviting them to group. I group with people, not gear. Stats where not a part of my descision making process when putting together a group, nor where they an issue for our guild when looking at potential apps. While it is, probably easier to group with a low level/geared cleric, than with a lower level/geared tank(as a tank, the second example did not come up much for me, cept when I was that lower geared/leveled tank), I do know that people in my guild did group with tanks, and would sometimes do lower level content, based on the tank they had. Some raiders will not group with nonraiders, I can't deny that, but I do think that most will. Most that I knew preferred personality over classes/stats in determining who to group with.

ElemLap and RosesAreRed: What would you have SoE do to change the "LFG situation". I am not going to say there was not a problem for some people getting groups. It was not a problem I had, and I do think that a part of the problem was self-inflicted(when there is a tank, a healer, a slower, and DPS people, all LFG, and one of them complains about a lack of a group, I tune out immedietly), but I will grant that it could be, at least at times, a problem. is it fixable, and if so, how?

RosesAreRed: I think playing a healer in group content is boring. Doing so in raid content...well, I had zero interest in it, and am amazed that some people did, in fact, enjoy it. Different strokes kinda thing. I do not understand, at a basic level, why some people are not interested in raiding. I understand that some people do not, and think that their playstyle should be just as supported as mine, but I can't comprehend why they don't want to. Sometimes we just have to accept that people are different.

Keisa beat me to posting about the tradeskill changes. Ngreth has always impressed me as a great dev, who is doing all he can to make things better. he makes mistakes, but lord he does try hard. A friend who does tradeskills in EQ just raved about the changes that happened, and how much she loves them.

----------

Ok, onto the answering of questions:

1: for your first question, I am at kinda a loss. Any issue I think important enough to mention, would probably take longer than the 8 hours alloted. Maybe the petition/feedback/bug system. First, none of these should ever take you out of game. These should be integrated into the game. Next, there should be feedback for all these. Within a couple weeks of PoR coming out, I did a /bug on aura's. When two people of the same class, with the same aura, where grouped together, there where issues as you moved around. If you moved out of range of the other person, even though you both had your aura running, neither would be recieving the effect. This was easily reproducable. Was my /bug ever read? Has anything ever been done on it? I have no way of knowing, and this is kinda discouraging. I think that is the only thing I think can really be even remotely done in 8 hours. Myabe sit down with Merloc, and fix weapon itemization for the last couple expansions.

2: Top 3 reasons I left EQ...well, at least this is easier. First was TSS. This had everything that should have made it a great expansion for me. Level cap increase, more AA's, wonderfull zones. Coming on the heals of the steaming pile of crap that was PoR, it needed to be great. Two things killed it for me, one flaw in conception, one flaw post execution. You should never, ever, include both a level cap increase, and content from 1-cap. This spreads out the focus of the expansion too much. If you increase the level cap, focus on content for the new levels, so that there is plenty to do at these new levels. Still, TSS could have been pretty good, except that, further in, they nerfed all the challenging zones, some past the point needed. It was design by averages, and is always wrong. Not everyone between average raid gear, and 75 % of that average raid gear, and with 500 AA's. Some have more, some have less. In my case, I had more(and even I was far from the cutting edge). FC/AG went from being fun, exciting zones(that did need some tuning, just not nearly as much as they had), to totally trivial snoozefest zones. The challenge went from surviving while working through the zones, to seeing how many mobs we could kill an hour. With the pace that we could now kill in these zones, it took a couple months, and I was approching max AA's, and the groups, while fun in hanging out with the people, lacked the excitement I wanted. I got bored, and bored paying for entertainment is bad.

The second reason is not related to anything the game had to offer, but issues within the guild I belonged to. It had started the spiral that would, before long, lead to it's death. Numbers where down, and with it what we could accomplish was down. Recruiting was slow at best. I was left with two untenable choices, to virtually stop progressing through raid content, or to leave the guild for one that was progressing. Neither choice was acceptable. In the end, I am proud that when my account expired, I had the guild tag I did.

The third reason was not so much a reason, as an accumulation. With the first two things going on, I found myself much less patient with the little, nagging issues with EQ. The aura bug mentioned above, the inability to filter AA strikethrough spam(though we could filter worn strikethrough messages, which where a small part of the spam that I got as a warrior), the west bug, the crash bugs, the incredibly bad itemization. When you get to a point that a games negatives outway the games positives, it is time to move on. The positives had been diluted, watered down for me, and soon, the scale tipped too far to the negative. And so I left, retired.

Even if every issue I ever had with EQ was fixed, I doubt I would come back now. I still think EQ is a great game, possibly the best ever of it's genre. But 6 years is enough. Other games may never recapture the magic that was EQ when I found it to be its best, but this does not mean they are not fun. In the end, that is all I want, a little fun, a chance to socialize with people who I tend to fit in with better than those in my hick, redneck, farmer small town that I live in(this is not meant as a negative to those people around here, some are the most decent people around...we just do not share many interests), and a chance to challenge myself, for my enjoyment.

Comment Posted by: Loral on November 25, 2007 10:36 AM

Sidetrack away, it's a good conversation.

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 25, 2007 08:33 PM

It is at least a fun derail, and I would be curious to your answers to some of the questions posed Loral.

Comment Posted by: Ghost of Zek on November 27, 2007 01:22 AM

Keisa and Redhenna, I wanted to thank both of you for letting me know that Ngreth was finally given some free reign to improve the cultural armor crafting. DoN was both a boon and a curse in that culural armors sounded on the surface to be the fix for what ailed the hobbiest player who wanted a productive way to gear up. Unfortunately as it turned out the first itteration was a good initial idea executed by the wrong man for the job. I congradulate SOE for learning to trust Ngreth's judgement more and more over time. Later this week I'm going to set aside time to go to the Den Mum's website (assuming it's still there) and read up on the topic much in the manner of someone lost in the dark to long seeking the brightness of day, I may squint some, but I'm eager for the light.

That said, what fun would be had if we didn't continue our meandering thoughts on the past, present and that looming specter; the future.

All to often we as the commentators when looking at something will note those things that we find we do not like and will take great pains to talk to all who will listen about those things. On the flip side of the coin, those seeking to sell something with talk up a few features and will shout out to the mountain about those few features.

As a change to both approaches, I'd like to toss out a question to you about things we like/liked about EQ that got little to no press time. Those little gems, settings, spots, features, what ever that where endearing, or that changed the way you thought of the game, etc.

+

For me, as odd as it no doubt seems, the feature I thought was the nicest "touch" to the game was the old Bulletin Boards you could find in the taverns around Norrath. The feature added an ability to communicate with other offline players, but did so in a way that maintained the sense of distance and seperation. To me it added to the sense of immersion in a "bigger world".

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 27, 2007 08:29 PM

Zone music is the first thing to pop into my head. Some zones just had great, underapreciated music. for me personally, I think my alltime favorite was the music in Torment, which seemed appropriate, and worth turning the music up a tad. There are lots of other examples of great zone music though.

I liked the fact that epic quests required you to have a knowledge of the lors of Norrath to understand the clues(well, assuming you did not just read a walkthrough). I missed the release of the original epic quests, but remember the absolute joy some people had with 1.5/2.0's, working out the quests.

I loved to hate Holly Windstalker(did I remember her name right?), the Qeynos Hills resident who would quickly kill you if you where killing wolfs/bears, even the rabid ones. I never did go back when I was high enough level to kill her, but it was always in the back of my mind, if I had seen her, to get some revenge.

Fippy Darkpaw, 'nuff said.

Really though, the best things in EQ where the people. I remember playing my cleric alt, being in LoIO, being joined by a couple Iksar, who where roleplayers, and talking about making me their pet, and so on. I was quickly sent a tell by one, that if they bothered me, or somehow offended by anything they said, to just let them know, and they would stop. The comments where harmless, good fun, and in character, and made for a very enjoyable day. So many times, random meetings, of people you may never see again, but who where quality people, really made EQ a great game, and something I still have not seen as much in any other game.

Comment Posted by: sunshadow on November 30, 2007 12:40 AM

Guys the is a great thread. I have only just come across it as it has been some months since I left EQ.

1) If I had a Dev for a day I would put them to work on changing the xp curve so the lower levels/AA's flow faster.

2) I left EQ out of boredom. I am a Necromancer and at Lvl 73 I found there was no mob I couldn't solo that was soloable. So I had no incentive to get to lvl75 as I would still be doing the same thing, only maybe slightly faster. Basicaly I put it down to SOE falling into the trap of making new spell just improvements on existing spells. There are very few spells that are new or work in different ways that force players to evolve or adapt. Spell X does the same a spell y + 30.

3) Things I would remove from EQ.

a) POK books. However I may not remove them but instead move them 3 zones away from starting cities. This is what killed starting cities in that any character could jump from where they start to PC and start powerleveling.

b) Shrink the world. Now that they are releasing the entire game with each expansion there is no requirement to keep growing the world at the same rate. I am not really for consolidation as the world will just be as big, just have less zone lines. Lokk at the commonlands that zone is to huge now.

c) Remove summoning. This is a stupid and game breaking mechanic to stop kiting. There needs to be alternatives worked out to get rid of this.

4) Any progression for EQ must be aimed at their existing playerbase and the retention therof. However the cannot ignore that new players/returning players are required for long term viability. Hence they need to make the starting zones interesting to captive new players and also create content which will not disenfranchise their existing base. TSS was their attempt at this but I feel they should have just had the 2 low zones and then jumped up to 65+ and progressed up from there so that Frostcrypt could have remained unchanged.

Comment Posted by: Aenor on December 1, 2007 11:24 PM

I once sent Loral an email asking him to support the widespread calls for an EQ classic server. He told me he didn't support the "EQ ludites" who wanted the game returned to a previous state. Now it appears that the progression servers made SOE so much money that they're actively making plans for future alternate ruleset servers. From the Secrets of Faydwer producers letter:

"
I am also discussing new server types with the development team and what types of game rules and mechanics would be a good idea or a bad idea. As I have said before, the Progression servers were a huge hit and I believe that there is room for specialized servers in the future of EQ."

Clint Worley
Senior Producer EverQuest
Sony Online Entertainment.

Score two for the EQ ludites!!

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on December 2, 2007 04:24 AM

As so many of the "classic server" types mentioned, so many times, the progression server was not a classic server. It had some basic, important differences from a classic server. No where in the quote you supplied was a classic server mentioned. I doubt very much you will see a classic server...though if some one had suggested that SoE would get into selling ingame items in EQ for cash via a card game, I would have doubted that too. In part the reasons why a classic server is almost certainly doomed are enumerated in some of the early posts for this very article.

Thank you for playing though, please try again.

Comment Posted by: sunshadow on December 2, 2007 11:19 PM

A classic server is to some extent definately on the cards. Where it might differ to what most people imagine is that it will probably contain so of the features and changes that have been made over time that would be to hard to remove just for this exercise. So in reality what you will get, may not be exactly what you asked for. SOE will want to make as few changes a possible in order to minimise the chance of bug and maintinance.

Comment Posted by: Aenor on December 3, 2007 01:50 AM

Red, naysayers like you said progression was a stupid idea and it would never work. It gave everquest its most profitable months in years. Thank you for playing please try again? I got the kill shot on the first Lord Yelinak on the server after my guild unlocked Velious on the Sleeper by completing the SK epic. I cant WAIT to try Classic-through-Velious again.

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on December 3, 2007 01:59 AM

First, as was pointed out frequently by people who wanted a 'classic server', the Progression server was not a classic server. It did well, I doubt anyone is arguing that, but a big part(the biggest?) that it was a success was because of the progression aspect, not the classic aspect. The Classic Server types showed up, got annoyed, and mostly left, which some of us predicted. I do also wonder...how is the population on that server(single server now I believe) is compared to other servers.

I stand by what I said earlier, I do not think there will be a classic server. There might be another Progression type server, or another alternate ruleset server...in fact, I would count on it. I would also bet it won't be quite as successfull this time around, unless SoE has some new neat trick to make it interesting, like they did by taking the clamor for a Classic Server, and made something that actually worked instead.

Comment Posted by: Ghost of Zek on December 3, 2007 09:02 PM

Merry Grinchmas!,

Well looks like some alternate rules are in place. At least it looks like PvP is live and well on the Blog.

As alternate rules is a hot topic, and as "classic" EQ holds both fond memories and dark nightmares for a lot of us, it looks like a good time to derail the derailment and go off in a new tangent.

That said; If there was a new "alternate rules / classic" server released next week, what if any features would you want to see in it? Feel free to go sky's the limit, just for the sake of sanity and to try to keep some of the intermural PvP to a limit, let's not include "new content hopes", but stick to stuff already "in game" in one fashion of another.

+

Hmmm, me first...

I'd want to see a PvP'ish Teams server based on started on the first trilogy and then progressing.

This is what I'd hope for:

1) Limit grouping/communication/bazaar transactions to same side light vs. dark, good vs. evil. i.e. If your a dark elf, don't expect to being selling any merch to that high elf with the heavy coin sack.

2) Add in religion to the mix. Not sure how, but have it also effect which faction your on.

3) Add in the ideal of controled vs. contested lands. Make some zones "safe" for factions based, and some contested where PvP is just a fact of life.

4) Have progression; But keep the time scale such that at least 8 months have to pass between expansions.

5) Do some due diligance; Flag quests, NPC's, recipies so that they unlock/appear only after expansions are unlocked. One of the reasons that the first progression servers got a lot of flack from "classic" players was the huge influx of later expansion gear.

6) One the progression path, require ALL progress steps be completed, don't allow alternate unlock paths.

Lastly, let me add in the 64 million dollar question, if SOE implemented a "alternate rules / classic" server next week that was everything your personal wish list wanted, and your no longer playing EQ, would you re-up your account? After all, that's really the only question SOE is gonna really want answered ;)

Comment Posted by: sunshadow on December 3, 2007 10:56 PM

Zek, sounds like you want to play WOW. A classic server for me would be.

1) Transport = Boats / run / Druids /Wizards

2) Only gear released in first 3 expansions being available.

3) No further progress cause Luclin killed the game from an imersion point of view.
(Side thought wonder what a classic + DoN + DoDH + TSS server would be like)

4) I like some of the new game mechanics like "call for help" but the rewards would need to be scaled back to match the original equipment for the zones.

For me I doubt I will go back to EQ no matter what they release.

Comment Posted by: Maeven on December 4, 2007 03:03 PM

Hasn't been a new Mobhunter article in a while, nor do I recall seeing Loral around on the forums or teh Quellious server. You retiring Loral? hehehe...

Comment Posted by: Faydwer on December 5, 2007 03:17 AM

If you don't hear WoW players asking for a classic server, it's because the current game is so good.

Comment Posted by: sunshadow on December 5, 2007 05:36 PM

Nah, Wow only has 1 expansion and it caters to the upper levels only so it hasn't reached the point of needing a classic server. Also in todays market I doubt WoW customers would feel nostalgic enoought to ask of one, they would just move on to another game. However with EQ because if was one of the first and there were few at the time, it managed to get right under peoples skin.

Comment Posted by: Aenor on December 6, 2007 05:41 AM

Ghost of Zek, I two boxed on the last progression server and I intend to 4 box on the next one. I'm in the early stages of recruiting among guild mates from Sleeper, Vallon Zek and Vanguard (Sartok) for what I predict will be Progression 2.0.

As for my dream ruleset, using just the existing content, it goes all the way back to 1999 and the website eqrp.com. I'm a hardcore roleplayer and PvPer. eqrp.com was a website where we discussed the ultimate ruleset for roleplayers, and most agreed that it would have to be a pvp server.

What we came up with came to be known as the "City-State" server. Instead of teams set up like race war or sullon zek, each starting city would become its own team. Surefall Glade would be the city of the half elves. Freeport would become the home of evil humans, and Qeynos the home of good humans. You could still cross team (which many teams, such as half elves, would have to do because of class availability).

That would be the ultimate for me. But I still have grave doubts there will ever be another EQ PvP server because of the way the Discord server exposed hacking in EQ. However, the guild Ebonlore was recently disbanded by SOE on Vanguard's Sartok server for 3rd party programs, duping and botting. So there may actually be hope for PvP in SOE's games.

What would have to happen to make PvP viable in EQ again is that movement detection would have to be instituted such that warp hackers would be automatically banned. The ability to warp all over a zone is a game breaker, especially for PvP.

Comment Posted by: Loral on December 6, 2007 06:46 AM

No, I haven't quit or retired. November was National Novel Writing Month and I hand wrote a novel called Seven Swords. That took up an extra two to three hours of my day every day for the month.

Now, in December, I've been going through old games that I haven't finished yet like Metroid Prime Corruption and Zelda Phantom Hourglass. Hopefully Santa is bringing me Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, Orange Box, Call of Duty 4, and Mario Galaxy so that will mean more console time.

On top of that I've been back into D&D and D&D Miniatures in a big way.

I haven't retired, I've just been busy.

Comment Posted by: Redhenna on December 7, 2007 08:43 AM

Ghost of Zek: sorry, can't really play the game this time. While I think that the progression servers made money, at least in the short run, I do think that the costs of making alternative ruleset servers would best be spent elsewhere. I don't think, and have seen no evidence, that an alternate ruleset server is going to be a long term success. I think we all know what happens when populations fall off to a certain level(the LFG problem among others), and this seems to be a recurring themse of special ruleset servers.

I would counter though with a question of my own for folks: It gets brought up alot, the LFG problem. It's not fun sitting LFG for hours. What can be done to make the LFG situation better? I note that this does not mean neccessarily that this is a huge issue with EQ, nor that alot of the problem may not be with the people LFG(I used to laugh when I would look for some one using LFG tool, and see a couple tanks, couple healers, couple slowers, and a bunch of DPS all LFG), but any improvements to LFG, increasing the ease of people to find groups, would be good for everyone.

Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on December 7, 2007 02:58 PM

Reducing the number of zones would help the LFG problem. When there were fewer zones pre POP, it was always possible to go into a level appropriate zone ... broadcast LFG .. and be invited very quickly. The Hot Zones prove that this still works.

Comment Posted by: Ghost of Zek on December 7, 2007 08:42 PM

Redhenna,

No worries. Not all questions right as essentially valid to all people. If they did we'd live in a world of careful contemplation, and ot a world where people look for a "decider". ;) That said, I do agree with you. An alternate rule set server is at this point really smoke and mirrors to hide the realy tangible issues facing EQ, the most prevalant issue being a huge list of outstanding problems/bugs/imbalances.

Now, on to your questions;

I'd say the answer to the LFG question needs to be addressed in a three prong tactic.

1) Content Guide: SOE needs to publish a list of advised level/AA requirements per zone: i.e. Frost Crypt is designed for players level X and above with at least Y AA's. Note they really need to dial in that AA number as using 500 point blocks is just not productive when talking to a player base where some players only gain 1 AA in a week. Try to keep AA ranges to plus or minus 50.

2) Zone Redesign: SOE needs to look for ways to reduce the number of sub-prime zones through consolidation. SOE should also look into re-designing the way "instances" are used and or allocated, potentially un-instancing some zones, and or limiting the number of any one instance that can be in play at a time.

3) Mergers: SOE needs to merge servers until population desinsity reaches a point where there are honest arguments to say that the servers are "crowded".

Anyway, the above is just my 2cp to a 3cp question :D

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