Should You Become a Raider?
by Loral on July 30, 2006
Since the dawn of Everquest, the adventurers of Norrath became split between those who raid and those who do not. After countless debates and discussions the split between these groups pulses between them, sometimes growing, sometimes shrinking. Yet at some time in the career of every high-level Everquest player, the question is raised:
Should one become a raider?
This article discusses the factors leading to this question and takes a look at how the game changes when one makes the leap to a raiding guild.
To begin, lets look at the advantages of raiding in Everquest:
1. It is a lot easier to get a group.
Since Gates of Discord, it has become time consuming and difficult to find a pickup group. Outside of Monster Missions, pickup groups outside of monster missions have shrunk. When one joins a raiding guild, these problems mostly disappear. Guild groups form quickly and easily. They focus on content that benefits individual members and the group as a whole. They move quickly and easily, their power is very high, and their success ratio is much higher than a pickup group. While most players join a raiding guild to raid, many find that grouping becomes much easier as well.
2. You will initially gain a great deal of power in a short period of time.
Unless you are joining a guild just beginning to raid, you will likely earn a great deal of powerful equipment in a short period of time. This process of gearing up new recruits is a common practice for guilds. It helps both the guild and the individual and with the power gap between raiders and non-raiders at a high point - it is likely that gear far above the power of a non-raid-equipped player will be worthless to most high-end raiders.
Over time, this progress will slow down but initially one can expect a few very powerful items to fall into their hands quickly.
3. You have access to more content, both raid and single-group.
As individual power grows, so does available content. Single group and multi-group events that were too difficult for non-raiders suddenly open up to raiders. Groups of raiders can hunt in Theater of Blood twinking alts with Qvic-level equipment. Groups of raiders can hunt for augments in Anguish. The MPG Trials, the DODH spell missions, the Skylance missions - these all become much easier as equipment power grows.
4. You can solo better.
As power grows, so does ones ability to solo. It seems odd that players who wish to solo would wish to join a raiding guild but at this stage in Everquest, the only players who can effectively solo at high levels are those with the high-powered equipment available to raiders.
If you want to solo well, you should join a raiding guild.
5. You can earn better gear in single groups than you could before.
Raids open up more single-group content including areas such as the Qvic Mshas and the Anguish augments. Groups of six can hunt in these zones and earn gear much higher than any available to non-raid-equipped single group hunters. As power grows, so does future profitability. This has a limit, of course. Eventually, when one earns enough powerful gear on a raid - the likelihood that they find something useful on a single-group hunt is low.
6. The encounters you face will be more interesting than those you faced before joining a raiding guild.
The high-end raid encounters past Gates of Discord are the most interesting events in the game. They are more dynamic, include better stories, and give players the most variety. Of course, they entice players with the most powerful loot in the game and include some of the best looking zones and models - models most of the population of Everquest will never see.
7. You will have more fun.
With better gear, a big jump in power, new and interesting encounters, new and interesting beasts, you are very likely to have more fun playing Everquest in a raiding guild than you are outside of one.
Clearly there are many advantages to becoming a raider. What disadvantages does one face when choosing the path of the raider?
1. You will get less sleep.
Raiding requires a lot of time. It is not uncommon to push back your bed time one or two hours. It is the nature of raids that the most interesting and rewarding content comes at the very end of a raid - the point that will be the latest in the evening. If you join a raiding guild, expect less sleep.
2. You will lose some friends.
As you make the transition from a non-raider to a raider, expect to lose some friends. While you may meet many new friends within your new guild, many of those with whom you hunted in your younger days will drift away from you or you will drift away from them. As the gap between your power and their power grows, so does your ability to hunt with them.
3. You won't have the freedom you had before raiding.
Raiding requires dedication and commitment. Your time is no longer your own. It is not uncommon for raiding guilds to require anywhere from three to five nights a week of raid time. The more powerful the raiding guild, the less free time you will find yourself with. Any hobbies you used to have in or out of game will suffer.
4. You will become less tolerant of less-skilled players.
When you have seen the skills of those in a well coordinated high-end raid guild, you become a lot less tolerant of those outside of your guild. Player skills will seem low and your trust of those you do not know will shrink. Expect to become an isolationist.
5. You can never go back.
Once you have geared up on high-end raid gear and once you have seen the powerful encounters that lay in the far depths of the game, you will never be able to let them go. Anything else will seem mundane and pointless. You are far more likely to quit completely than you are to leave the raiding game and go back to to the LFG channel.
Now that we have outlined the scope of the question it is time to look at it once again. Should you become a raider? Do you have the time? Do you have the desire? Are you tired enough of life as a non-raider? Do you want to see the best encounters, the best zones, and the best equipment in the game? There is only one choice to make.
So why would one not choose it? Let me speak for myself.
/em begins his editorial.
This game was not always so one dimensional as it is today. I was originally drawn to Everquest because of the sheer scope of possible things to do. Every time I logged in I faced a wide array of choices. I could group, I could solo, I could tradeskill, I could do an LDON instance, I could heal and buff new players, I could do some roleplaying, I could seek out lost treasures in ancient forgotten dungeons.
These days, at the highest levels of the game, there is really only one choice. Soloing is not profitable. The most beneficial content at level 70 is not achievable without raid gear. There comes a point where one can no longer progress until one chooses to raid.
I am just about at that point now. I log in and I sit in Arcstone watching people farm for low-powered gear on the demon's hill. I chat with my friends. I debate with other members of the Everquest summit - often with disastrous results. I pontificate and I brood and I dream - but I don't play. There is no gear better than what I have that is worth my time to acquire. I watch the titanic uberguilds roar past on their way to slay beasts in lands I will never see. I listen to the rumors of powerful equipment beyond anything I will see in the next four years.
I sit and I remember the times of LDON, the times where every night I could find a group for two hours and earn a fraction of a new piece of powerful equipment. I miss those days.
I want only three things:
1. I want to have a smooth path of individual power progression. Give me a set of 200 hp and mana primary armor available from sets of missions or quests.
2. I want to be able to quickly find a group and hunt for 90 minutes. Give me instanced or triggered quest encounters that have fixed durations so it won't make me late for work the next day.
3. I want to face fun and interesting encounters. Give me about thirty more of the Arcstone Spirit mob quests, give me thirty more missions like the 70 spell missions in DODH.
With Serpent's Spine on the way, I have hopes that I will have answers to these requests. Serpent's Spine can return us to the days where groups were plentiful and gear progression was possible at every level of play. Many are quick to point out that I had such hopes for Prophecy of Ro and they are right to question me. At this point we can only wait and see. If it does not return us to those days where the world was wide open and we chose our own path - perhaps it is time for Loral Ciriclight to consider the path of the raider.
Loral Ciriclight
29 July 2006
loral@loralciriclight.com
Comment Posted by: phrank on July 30, 2006 09:40 PM
You know Loral your desires are so fulfilled by other games but as so many EQ oldies are want to be you can't see past the lands of Norrath.
So pitiful really that you all limit yourselves to a game designed a decade ago and only driven into the ground ever since.
EQ had so much potential but like has been done to WoW it will turn into a raider niche game designed for the devs with their high level toons and their uber friends.
Real companies would be more interested in the vast majority of their playerbase (according to SoE themselves raiders are < 5% of their population) but for some reason the devs seem to always wrest control away from the "management" (like there is any real management at any of these companies) and design the "uber" end game for their buds back in their home guilds (cough FOH cough for example).
Comment Posted by: Aarkan on July 30, 2006 10:29 PM
Basically what Loral is saying is LDoN needs to be fixed and more LDoN/DoN type stuff needs to be added along with the high end raid type stuff. And more hot dragon girls.
Comment Posted by: sunshadow on July 30, 2006 10:39 PM
Loral, if what you say is only partly true then basically Raiding is killing EQ and SOE need to implement a "No More Raids" policy. I say this because Raiding is basically just sucking players out of the game. Once you raid, there is no incentive to do anything else and after a time players burn out and quit cause no "Non-raid" stuff is any challange.
To get around this SOE need to look at instead progressing the groupable challenges up to the point where the challenges are as hard for 6 as the raid mobs are for 54/72. And if they do this don't stick it behind a heap of Raid only flag requirements. Let groups progress as groups.
Tradeskillers should also have option to make "no-trade" self uber equipment, anyone who thinks the TS is less of a timesink than Raiding is kidding themselves so there should be appropriate rewards for that.
Comment Posted by: Aazzn on July 30, 2006 11:42 PM
The best gear shouldn't just come from a timesink, but some measure of skill and coordination as well, there is no human skill involved in tradeskilling unless its in amassing the mass quantities of platinum required to skill up or the patience to farm for an eternity. I would have to say a much greater percentage than 5pct of the population raid, at least in some form. maybe a total of 5pct of the characters, but people don't put all 8 of their character slots in a raiding guild.
Comment Posted by: Skuz on July 31, 2006 02:53 AM
Nicely written article Loral, you highlight the pro's & con's very well, though they aren't as set in stone as they might seem.
On rare occasions raiders do go back to the casual life, well aware they wont get a gear upgrade for possibly years, & I get plenty of sleep, you just need to be able to manage your offline time effectively.
I think everyone wants to see the group game improved, personally i'd like to see 3 tiers of group content, with appropriate challenge, & quested armour spanning several missions, I think the DoDH "mask" quest was a very good way to earn what was a powerful item, some will argue that it was too great a timesink, but I think that many casuals might be happier working towards a great item like that via a quest.
Group gear progression does need to be there & it does need to be powerful enough to not only be able to allow group players to feel rewarded for their time, progressed gear wise in a fair comparison to raiders, but also the loot to act as a big enough "draw" to get people grouping for it.
LDoN had a huge amount of unrealised potential, the copy-paste dungeons whilst limited in looks were good fun, some of the lore that went ith it was very good, but I think the points system it used was too much work for too little reward, I think SoE should re-visit that concept, revised much in the way DoN was, & balance it out better, but offer really good items for those willing to earn them, that are not as "expansion only" as LDoN was, & are customisable via augments not just from in the expansion but out of it too.
Comment Posted by: Simkine on July 31, 2006 09:00 AM
From your list, the only downside to raiding I can see is #1, and #3. The single biggest reason I stopped was #1. I simply could no longer play until midnight-1am during the week and get up at 6am for work. I'm east coast based but it seemed 90% of the guilds were PST raid based and the ones that were EST didn't start until 8 or 9pm anyway. If I could of found a compatible guild with my playtime I'd probably still be raiding.
Just before PoP came out I made the decision to step down as the leader of my guild and join an established raiding guild. I did this solely so that I could parts of the game I knew I never would otherwise. One thing casuals are, is casual. It was nearly impossible to organize anything and move beyond simple grouping. Most simply didn't care to think beyond themselves and couldn't see how helping others would help them move forward faster.
Getting "uber" gear was never the reason I raided. It was for the fun, challenge and seeing the zones. Granted there were people in my guild that were loot hungry too it just wasn't why I played. I went on to see NoTV, SSra, VT, PoTime, Tacvi, and Anguish and the like. My best memories of EQ were from beating raids such as Rallos, Xegony, TRC, and Trial of Corruption. I really think that if the casuals had the opportunity to see this side of EQ they'd understand. Raiding really is very fun and challenging and far different from single group offerings could.
Unfortunately, EQ expansions have rolled through too fast, made 75% of the previous content appear irrelevant to today's game. Should people who buy Titanium+PoR immediately expect to be raiding Sullon Zek and/or getting equivilant loot. Honestly, I don't know what the answer is. I would like to see people actually progress through the game instead of jumping in at the end and complaining they can't swim.
I'd like to see them do the things I did to gear up and not simply buy some crystals after a half dozen runs and get the best gear out there. I will concede the line where they would start is murky though.
I think it's important to note that there are plenty of guilds raiding Time/GoD/OoW/DoN even now, more so than the ones in the end game zone of the latest expansion. This is actually something that should be looked at. DoDh/PoR raid progression is brutally tough and time consuming. It makes people yearn for the days of PoP flagging. So not only are non-raiders not finishing the expansions, either are most of the raiders. Then 6 months later, the bar is raised again.
It's not a matter of raider= farming Sullon Zek/ Ayonae Ro. It's more like raider = seeing the rest of the game, even it means you're 18months behind the curve. If people can accept that, then they can enjoy the game.
Seems like more and more people do not want to do this. The scoff at the gear they'd get from Time and compare it to Mayong and say it's not worth it. They've done neither but given the pie in the sky dreaming obviously want the best. They need to realize that by doing the first, they're on their way to the second.
That is why I said 75% of the content appears irrelevant. Casuals sit on the side and compare their item A to end game item z and cry foul. Raiders compare end game item z to theirs and proceed to get items b,c,d,e,f, etc until they reach it even if it means doing "obsolete" expansions.
Comment Posted by: Richard Hinson on July 31, 2006 09:48 AM
Loral,
I for one hope you don't become a "raider", as if you do, then you'll cease to be a voice for the 80% of the player base that you are becoming a voice for.
That said, I seriously doubt that the next expansion will make things any better. The simple fact that they are increasing the number of AA's, adding more spells, and more levels, makes it doubtful.
It's been almost two years since SOE admitted they needed to re-vamp LDoN time vs. risk vs. reward. They haven't done it, even though I'm sure there are EQ fans that would be willing to do 99% of the number crunching for them for no cost.
SOE simply hasn't shown any interest in going back to make things better. And no, I don't call the new freeport, nek forrest, or the upcomming re-do if high pass "better". It's just different, not better.
I hate to push on this, but nothing less than a full scale uprising such as what was pushed by gucomics.com at the outset of Gate of Discord is going to get SOE to revamp thier ways. And the uprising needs to be a full blown insurgency, not some one time invite the press down, say some fluffy words, talk about "re-envisionment" and then blow smoke up peoples bums till and wave shiney toys infront of the raiders to make them shush.
Seriously, they aren't going to stop ganking the casual player until someone like yourself, or the lads over at castersrealm, or stratics calls for an all out bouycot of all SOE products and makes it happen.
Comment Posted by: aethn on July 31, 2006 11:27 AM
Although I do agree with your article as a whole, why is it that every article you write for the past 2 years boils down to "I want more LDON's in the game to save this game"?
That is a serious question Loral, not a flame. Why do you think adding more 6 man instanced content, removing even more ppl from the world nightly, is good and healthy for a game that relies on interaction to remain viable? I honestly want to hear that answer.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on July 31, 2006 12:45 PM
Let me take a crack at this one:
Because instanced, single-group, relatively short-duration dungeons are ideal for people who can't or don't want to plan their lives around the game.
Because it's instanced, you can start one any time you've got a group together. Adventure on demand with no worries about the spot you want being camped.
Because it's single group, it's relatively easy to put together enough people to do it even if you don't have a major social network to draw on.
Because it's relatively short-duration, you can say "I've got a couple hours, I'll do a dungeon" without fear of getting stuck. Yes, groups in fixed locations where people come and go at will work fairly well for this too, but they tend to turn into boring grinds. Instanced dungeons can easily be given an objective, even a story.
As for people being taken out of the world, maybe I'm just a misanthrope but once I was in a group I was pretty focused on my group. I'd chat with my guild when I could, but I paid little attention to zone chat. And if I saw other people in the area we were hunting my main reaction was frustration. It always ruined my feeling of immersion that my immediate reaction to seeing powerful allies slaying my enemies was "Darn it, they're taking our mobs!" Thus I'm perfectly happy having my "world" be "my trusted companions in this adventure" when I'm deep in a dungeon.
Comment Posted by: bleh on July 31, 2006 12:51 PM
You forgot disadvantages #6+ even though its hinted at in you picture caption...
You will die.
Alot.
A whole lot.
And wait, alot.
And deal with trash that is deadlier than anguish mini's.
And rediculously poor pathing.
And unresistable ae's making all that resist aa and stats worthless.
And zone wide ae's which snare and debuff and drain your hp, mana and endurance. AND which now take up 2 buff slots.
Just to name a few.
Comment Posted by: Loral on July 31, 2006 02:11 PM
Actually, I'm not so sure that instanced six-person content is the answer. It wasn't with DON, DODH, or POR. SOE is taking a different appoarch to Serpent's Spine by focusing on non-instanced large zones with a focus on community hunts instead of isolated instances. I don't know if this will give us the 90 minute fixed duration sessions that I thought were a big success in LDON, but it may help people find groups if life goes back to the Dreadlands North Wall groups or the Wall of Slaughter south wall groups. Only time will tell.
I don't think that simply adding more LDON-like content is the answer. They did it with DON and DODH and it didn't have the same appeal that LDON did. Maybe it was the differences between LDON and the other two or maybe it was a shift in how we play but I don't blame SOE for trying new ways to get groups together. I just want to get a group and play for a couple of hours - I don't care if it's LDON or not.
As far as other games providing this, I'm not so sure. Both Everquest 2 and World of Warcraft seem to focus exclusivly on new high-end content and expect lower level or players who play for less time to just stick to the original content. Everquest 2's first expansion started at level 45 and World of Warcraft hasn't released a new dungeon below level 50. They write huge storylines and have massive world-wide events that simply lead to uber 40 person raiding zones that most people can't see. All the popular MMOGs seem to focus on high-end raiding eventually. It's a damn shame and an untapped market if you ask me.
Comment Posted by: Elkar on July 31, 2006 02:55 PM
There is another kind of guild, which you fail to mention. It is surely much more rare in the game than the raiding guild, but they do exist. I belong to one.
We've been called "a family guild that raids" among other things, but that most aptly describes my guild.
We raid 3-4 nights a week. We don't demand any attendance. Progress is our pillar. But so are XP nights, as well as a quest/epic night.
We're usually a year or so behind the ubers, because we don't put in the same amount of time that others do. We have the benefit of the uber's knowledge, however, so we usually don't bang our heads against the wall as much either.
It keeps one comfortably above the casuals, but not quite top end either. That's ok by us, we have tons of fun, make great progress, and for the most part are currently earning all 300/300 range gear (Tacvi/Anguish/DoN/DoD). We now have 4 epic 2.0's, with a couple orbs waiting for fights.
I'm not sure if you server has such a guild, but I find it a great mix for people with other obligations.
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on July 31, 2006 03:05 PM
General thoughts:
1. I have always felt that level cap raising creates new content for casuals. There will be a lot of older content that a group of 75s can do that 70s could not. Now, whether the items they can pick up will be worth it, I don't know. But the level cap raise should make it possible to see older zones that before were inaccessible to groups of 70s.
2. I have always wondered why Sony has such a hodgepodge way of doing everything. It would be nice if they had continued the DoDH system. A lot of people seemed pleased with that in terms of grouping missions, although the generic gear handouts were done badly. A streamlined system of getting better gear for less-than-raiders should be a priority to Sony. Every expansion should have a complex mission arc designed for groups that is based off of the last expansion's mission arc with gear and spells designed as upgrades based on that.
3. I have always thought Sony should focus on 12-people missions or small raid forces. Why do we have to flip from 6 to 40 or 50 people? A lot of smaller guilds could flourish with a system of small raids designed to drop decent gear. It could even be similar to the larger raids in the sense that only a few items off of each kill so the events/kills would need to be repeated. Going from 6-group to full raid is killing small guilds. 9-man or 12-man raid content could revitalize smaller guilds and would be a viable alternative to the huge jump from 6-man group to 40-and-above raid forces.
Again, just some thoughts.....
--Wolfkinder
Comment Posted by: concerned1 on July 31, 2006 03:23 PM
loral: why are you joking around about it? beating around the bush ? you are on the path to become a uber raider just like your wife did. its gonna happen. all you people are so funny trying to use phrases such as " i cant progress anymore" or " i cant find a good group". blah,blah,blah...the power of the "phat lewtz" compells you! admit it and be done with it! when i played eq and i saw links to 2.0 and gear with 300 hit points... you damn right i wanted it. im not ashamed of it . BUT..some of us are forced to live in reality and have more obligations in life then a video game. i dont care what a single one of you claim; if super powered gear was not the reward for raiding you would not do it. its as simple as that. and eq is all about raiding. if you cant handle that then you need to get out and try something else.which is what i did and i do not regret it one bit. you know how i came to post on this site? this site came up from cross referenced info i was looking for another game. well what got me was i read several posts from uber raiders lashing out about casual this and casual whiners that. the truth of the matter is that if every single casual player quit eq it would tank faster then you can spell tank. it pisses me off when i see ubers claim that eq is good for casuals when i know it isnt. and i think of someone wasting money to buy eq only to be disappointed when they find the truth.what alot of you dont see is the message that is sent out: casual people see uber gear linked and know that only the top guild people have it. you dont realize that what this does is take away hope from people becuase they know they dont have the time or determination or whatever it maybe to obtain these things. well, what happens when hope is taken away from people or there is no hope at all ? their interest dies. and they quit.
Comment Posted by: Faelin Crimsoncloud on July 31, 2006 03:52 PM
The disadvantages one faces when choosing the path of the Brew Master raider, by Faelin Crimsoncloud.
1. You will get less sleep.
Depends on your time zone. Our raids rarely run late unless it's a friday - there's no requirement to stay though.
2. You will lose some friends.
Raiding isn't a requirement of membership around our guildhall. Play the toon you like, with who you like.
3. You won't have the freedom you had before raiding.
Maybe. How often do you play? We only raid for progression 2 nights a week with Epic / Quest night being a 3rd night.
4. You will become less tolerant of less-skilled players.
This is entirely up to you.
5. You can never go back.
I honestly don't know, I've been in this guild all but the first 10 months of my EQ experience.
I'm not posting here as a means to recruit you or anyone else, Loral. I'm definitely posting here to say that the raiding-game of EverQuest does not require the black & white view you posted here. Thats why I posted my version, lol.
Raiding shouldn't be a membership requirement of a guild.
Raiding shouldn't be a 30+ hour a week commitment.
Raiding shouldn't be the only thing you have left in the game, once you begin doing so.
We've raided for progression 2 or 3 nights a week, had no raiding membership requirement, constructed our own unique, fair and incredibly lenient points based loot system with amazing success. We're a step away from Tacvi (Yes, raiding only 2 nights a week means you move kinda slow - who cares?).
You'll find right here on your server, Loral. We're older than the server is so I'm reasonably certian it's working too!
www.brewmasters.org
Comment Posted by: Varner Rapscallion on July 31, 2006 04:29 PM
----
When you have seen the skills of those in a well coordinated high-end raid guild, you become a lot less tolerant of those outside of your guild. Player skills will seem low and your trust of those you do not know will shrink. Expect to become an isolationist.
----
This statement is just entirely untrue, out of line and plainly wrong. I've been on both sides of the fence First as Casual, then a Raider, then taken a three year break, came back as a Casual, and moved on to Raiding again.
The "skill" level of raiders vs. casuals is exactly the same. Some players suck and some don't. The major difference is, a raider who sucks can make up the difference with gear in alot of situations. I've seen casual druids CC 5 mobs with roots/snares and totally handle terrible pull situations. Meanwhile I've seen raiding enchanters who couldn't handle a three pull without getting dead. The exact opposite is also true.
Leave the skill out of it. Many raiders are pure zerg fiends. Many casuals have had to learn to overcome less than ideal group compositions. Alot of raiders have learned to overcome extremely bad situations forced on the player by raid scripts.
I think we put too much stock in the raiders are better players than casuals argument.
Comment Posted by: menleniel on July 31, 2006 07:24 PM
You can be a top guild and only raid three days a week. We do and I fully expect SZ to die this week.
Even when I was a casual player I was never tolerant of clueless incompetents. I also don't expect everyone I group with to be perfect either.
Give raiding a shot. Even if you decide its not for you you'll have seen some new scenery.
Comment Posted by: High End Raider on July 31, 2006 07:38 PM
Very nice post Loral but I have to disagree. Raiding in a high end guild does not ruin the rest of the game. If anything, I believe it enhances it.
I am a member of a high end guild on your server that is one mob away from Deathknell and two mobs from finishing Demiplane. We have raids 5 nights a week, but my guild, like Faelin's guild does not have a minimum raid attendance requirement. What you do when you are online is up to you. The only requirement we have is that when you do raid, you give 100%.
The majority of our members are working stiffs and college students and many log early so that they can get up for work/school. There is no reason why you can't be part of a raiding guild and have a life as well.
As far as loot from groups is concerned, I have several pieces of loot from quests and one groupable content, including DoDH missions. Not all high end raiders have loot that is unattainable by non-raiders. There are many pieces of loot that can be obtained through quests, tradeskills and missions that are as nice as many of the higher end pieces that only drop in keyed/flagged zones. Granted, you cannot obtain endgame level loot, but you can get really nice stuff.
I also have to disagree with your comment...
"When you have seen the skills of those in a well coordinated high-end raid guild, you become a lot less tolerant of those outside of your guild. Player skills will seem low and your trust of those you do not know will shrink. Expect to become an isolationist."
I don't find that I am less tolerant of players outside my guild and I am not an isolationist. Skill levels vary among all players and this is not dependent on whether or not you are in a raiding guild. The only real difference I have seen between raiders and non-raiders is gear, and as Varner Rapscallion said "Some players suck and some don't. The major difference is, a raider who sucks can make up the difference with gear in alot of situations."
As far as trust is concerned, you will always trust players more that you group with on a regular basis than those you don't. The reason here is because you become familar with the individual play style of those players and that allows for a comfort zone. I don't believe that this is limited to guild relationships. It is true of any groups that you may encounter.
Just my 2cp.
Comment Posted by: Loral on July 31, 2006 07:58 PM
Higher levels and new AAs do help non-raiders grow into higher end content but only to a point. We're a long way from a group of players in non-raid gear getting through GOD raids.
However, it is my hope that once non-raiders hit level 75 and get some new and powerful AAs that they can actually get to Theater of Blood and one or two-group the mobs there for some decent armor.
I also hope that the gear gap closes a bit with the gear coming out in Serpent's Spine but we'll have to see about that too.
It's been a long time since our last level increase so its hard to say how it will help, but it has the potential to help a lot.
Level increases and new AAs help non-raiders gain a good bit of power and access to higher-end gear. This is good.
On family raiding guilds: that is exactly what Juror belongs to (I secretly interviewed her for a lot of this article's content but don't tell her I said so). Her guild raids three nights a week, they're through GOD and are just getting into Anguish. They could, with some prodding, earn a lot of progression in DODH and POR. I still consider it a raiding guild but it is a lot less strict than the guilds that force raiding seven days a week.
Again, I'm not writing this article completely tongue in cheek - raiding guilds have a solid and important place in EQ's life, but it shouldn't be the only option at the high end and right now it is.
Comment Posted by: Hassan al-Nasir on July 31, 2006 08:29 PM
Loral, I am a player who has been with EQ since Beta and who right up to 2005 was a hardcore CASUAL player. I wanted to experience the raid game, and I joined an incredible guild of folks in September last year and have now gone up to Anguish.
And I agree with you 100% on what needs to happen for the casual game. EQ caters FAR to much to raiders in terms of gear when casual players expend as much time and effort for less reward in their own form of play. The EQ Devs have failed completely to recognize that there should be multiple paths to equivalent gear, raiding being one method. It would even make the game meaningful for those who quit the raid game, as they would continue to have an advancement path in their incarnation as a more casual player.
Hopefully they will recognize this, and soon.
Comment Posted by: Utziel on July 31, 2006 08:49 PM
Its shocking to see raiders defending raiding.
Let's start with the "you dont have to raid all the time in a raiding guild". If you dont go to the raids do you get new gear from the raids?
UMM NO. Do you earn DKP for not going to the raid? Umm NO. Do you keep up with the raid progression of the guild? Umm NO. If ya dont raid you dont get the gear. I am not going to join a Raiding guild and wait months to get enough DKP to get 1 piece of gear. In groups I am going to roll on a piece of armor or aug every time one drops that I can use. No waiting and no doing raids night after night with no reward. And no I dont view seeing new places a reward.
Comment Posted by: Juror on July 31, 2006 09:02 PM
Hey! So that's why you were asking so many questions.
/bonk Loral
It's true that I don't get as much sleep but that's really my own fault. I could go to bed earlier but then I would miss the boss fight at the end of the raid. I could have picked a EST guild but I wanted to be with friends.
I did lose touch with a few non-raiding friends but I still consider them friends and hopefully once wedding and moving is over, I will have time to do things with them again. It's not like I erased my friends list when I changed guilds.
As far as tolerance goes, that's really a personal thing. Some folks are patient, open-minded, friendly towards strangers, and willing to help anyone while others get frustrated easily and only associate with those that they know well and trust. Raiders aren't more skilled but they do have more experience in certain zones and with certain mobs. Death is a powerful teacher and gear can cover lack of skill to some degree.
I disagree that raiders can't go back. Just because I can't name anyone who has, doesn't mean that nobody has.
Raiding is not just about gear. Is gear a factor? Sure it is. Gear is a tool and a key as well as an award / reward. It's not the only reason to play though. Life in Norrath would be pretty boring if it was.
Should you become a raider? That depends mostly on you. Are you having fun in EQ? If not, what would make you happier? Consider the advantages and disadvantages (the grey version as well as the B&W version) then decide. Wait until the new expansion if you aren't sure. The level increases will help. Fewer instances might help. Keep poking SoE to add more options for non-raiders. Maybe they will listen.
Comment Posted by: belgrath on July 31, 2006 09:44 PM
EQ should stop trying to cater everything to all people and just embrace the fact that its a game for hardcore players and just concentrate on the raiding aspect. Low level game should a grind to weed out the undedicated and those not willing to sacrifice to become guild worthy and a unit in a well oiled raiding machine (guild). 400+ days /played (10,000+ hours) shows the dedication longtime raiders in uberguilds have. EQ should be like the 'Navy Seals' of MMRPG's and leave the casual family guild bs to WoW. If gear and power is done quick and easy you dont really earn it or appreciate it.
Comment Posted by: concerned1 on July 31, 2006 10:19 PM
well....lets see....soe itself estimated that less than 10% of eq subscribers are actually hard core raiders. so if soe decided to focus its development efforts on catering to those people then people would most likely quit by the thousands. oh wait a minute....thats what is actually happening already. you know in the "discussion" in the post before this when subscriber numbers were mentioned i didnt even think to consider that some of the supposed 250k(a number that "leaked" out of soe a few months back) subscribers that soe claimed for eq were station passes.......
Comment Posted by: Armarant on July 31, 2006 10:49 PM
Juror wrote: I disagree that raiders can't go back. Just because I can't name anyone who has, doesn't mean that nobody has.
...
ooh ooh ooh! *jumps up and down*..
I went back to being casual from being a raider.. started some new characters on a new server as well. and am now waiting on the expansion so I can start all over again as a drakkin and enjoy the new low end content.
Comment Posted by: Gaerith on August 1, 2006 12:27 AM
I really have to disagree that you have maxxed out your character until I see some proof, like magelo. I am in a family raiding guild that is currently clearing tacvi/CoA (all except OMM), and working on DP/PoR stuff, and I group almost nightly to get stuff that is still an upgrade to not only myself, but other people in the guild. And I am ranked 20th on my entire server for ac, so it's not like my gear exactly sucks.
I still do not have all the augs that I want, and I have been working very hard for a long, long time at them. It is possible to 'max' a character out through casual content, but looking at the magelo's on my server, I don't see a single person who actually has...
So, let's say a person actually has maxxed their character out through casual content alone (I'd really like to see that, anyone). I don't see anything to complain about really - you will be VERY powerful and be able to handle just about anything thrown at you within reason. A well geared/aa'd casual will be within a reasonable power level compared to a raider. The nice thing about Everquest (and all MMO's) is that you still have options left at this point - you can raid (hardcore as you want or don't want), or you could start an alt. Even not having all the gear I want, it's still nice to have an alt to work on once and a while, when I'm getting burnt out.
I don't see anything wrong with raiders/raiding and I certainly don't see anything wrong with casuals, except when the few that seem to expect hand-outs. EQ has more options for upgrading now than it ever has, and casuals can be very powerful. They just have to work for it, like everyone else.
Comment Posted by: Naladini on August 1, 2006 01:04 AM
Great writeup Loral.
What I miss, more than anything else within EQ, is the freedom and ability to wander to just about any zone and find something to do and someone to do it with. The size of the gameworld and the power differences within it have spread the population too thin.
As was noted at the summit/FF, the biggest draw for many in an MMO is the vibrant community within the game. Having lively zones is what many of us remember as our fondest moments within the game, and as was mentioned, the goal behind Progression Servers and TSS is to help foster that environment.
Before NPCs started their overly dramatic upward climb in power (thanks in no small part to rampant single-pulling), it was possible to wander into a fairly populated zone and perhaps kill off a few mobs solo while you were waiting for a group to open up, if no groups open up, oh well, you got some xp while waiting. Nowadays, that kind of feat is a lot tougher to accomplish, and given the size of the gameworld, BYOG (/shudder) has become the norm.
Collapsing the gear disparity between raiders and non-raiders is a necessary change to bring more parity, freedom, and community potential to the game. Fresh expansion content, designed with a "Bazaar-Geared" warrior tank should be the norm, not only the intro zone. (note this means they need to make the bazaar geared warrior better, more tradeable weapons, more tradeable spells, not make the content less powerful).
The old time-investment formulae need to be strongly reconsidered. While group based gear can provide a catch-up mechanism, the time investment requirements tend to be pretty steep (much higher than time spent raiding). And what about people who play 10 or less hours per week? Those with Short play sessions?
As I've noted before, I really don't think non-raiders would care about raid gear being better than their own in and of itself. The problem is, group content is designed around folks with raid level gear, and the bazaar geared tank who decides to lead a pick up group into that content to check out the new expansion quickly discovers that much of the content won't be suited for them until the level cap goes up a few expansions later. Soloing tends to be an unsupported afterthought, so naturally, if you want to solo well, you can raid for really good gear or buy a second account to make it viable.
In other words, non-raiders want better gear because it allows them to do the things they used to be able to do in the original game. It will allow them to group, it allow them to solo, it will allows them to experience content in the zones that they just shelled out $30 to see, even though they weren't anywhere near finished with the last 4 expansions.
_______
Its a slightly different perspective (a designer viewpoint, not a player viewpoint), but Lum wrote about some of these issues early this year:
http://www.brokentoys.org/2006/01/30/casual-friday/
Notably, this comment:
"They absolutely do not want different stuff. They want stuff like they liked. If they wanted that other stuff, they’d have not quit that other MMO they tried for a month. They want more stuff like the old stuff.
And… they ran out of stuff. And Blizzard can’t make enough stuff. And most of the stuff they are making… uh… it’s not that stuff. It’s the other stuff. The high-level raiding stuff that, to keep a tradition in every other MMO alive, wasn’t included with the original game, but was PatchedInLater."
____________________
It was the PatchedInLater comment that rings so true. No MMO needs high end raid content at release, they all have to walk before they can run. Once they decide to run, its difficult to come up with content that pleases everyone, and the people who thought they were getting a "casual friendly" game become quickly disappointed at the direction the game takes as more and more raid content that fewer and fewer players will ever see becomes the centerpiece of the game. (To be fair, said content is never really the centerpiece of the game, the centerpiece of the game is whereever you want it to be, the catch is, most forums and blog sites are going to be chatting about whatever is new and freshly discovered/conquered above anything else).
The catch is, there isn't an easy way to design around this problem using the traditional MMO thought process. The more the game grows, and the more avenues of advancement are created, the greater the disparity will be within the community, because not everyone has the same amount of time to invest.
The hope for the mid-tier player is the fact that the endgame won't support a full development effort on its own, and the raid game isn't self-sufficient in terms of playerbase, it needs new blood every so often just like every other facet of the game.
Dramatically lowering the powergap between raiders and non-raiders is a step that should be taken.
Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on August 1, 2006 07:58 AM
I was reading yesterday this amazing post by some one on "casual raiding". The post can be found here:
http://relmstein.blogspot.com/2006/07/making-wow-raids-casual-affair.html
It is World of Warcraft based but I think it can very easily be applied to EverQuest. I personaly think it makes perfect sense and there is a slight posibility that WoW itself will be heading this direction with a big chunk of it's expancion raiding content.
Comment Posted by: RosesareRed on August 1, 2006 11:53 AM
Someone mentioned earlier that casuals should take the time to research the flags and quests before they go LFG ... and that's the problem. It shouldn't be necessary to spend half your play time on a third party site before you can play! I've wasted entire sessions running between seers and POT trying to figure out what to do next too.
If I were a new player making a choice between this complicated system in EQ and a clear quest progression that says .... "take this message to so-and-so in xxxx and bring me a reply" (as in WOW) ..... I wouldn't have trouble deciding. Even in the old days of Orc Hill, for instance, the belts and pads quest for exp was explained by other players or Alla and not by an NPC in LFay. Not good.
EQ is not friendly to new players. A quick tutorial that dumps a player into POK before they have a chance to learn their class skills, explore and group in a home city with compatible level chars that will be added to friends list is too overwhelming.
Comment Posted by: Keisa on August 1, 2006 12:14 PM
So, Rosesarered,
What you want is a game that holds your hand while you play. On the other hand, I quit playing WOW, because I felt like I was on a treadmill. Go there... do that... bring me a bottle... kill 20 Whatzums... collect 35 tufts of grass... take this message to Sgt. Guardsmith... take this message back to Councelor Troy... take another message to Master Yar... Wait, you need to ride a griffin for another 20 minutes... Soon, I realized I wasn't enjoying it anymore.
Every system has it's failures. Some people like well structured goals and a roadmap drawn out for them. Others like to explore and discover. The quest system in WOW may be well suited for some, but it destroyed an symblance of emersion for me.
Keisa
Keisa
Comment Posted by: RosesareRed on August 1, 2006 01:18 PM
Yes Keisa .... beginners need their hands held until they learn the game, level a bit, make a few friend, join a guild, etc.
As a previous poster said, unless you have high level friends to protect and PL you or some other strong support system .. it's almost impossible for a first time player to get started in EQ. There are almost no people in the old, fun low level zones where we learned from each other, and the current set up doesn't encourage newbies to do anything but grind.
Of course, high level players don't need a crutch, but I am talking about how to get new players into the game.
Comment Posted by: RosesareRed on August 1, 2006 01:26 PM
Since we can't edit posts I want to add for the benefit of Keisa that I don't find anything immersive about looking stuff up on Alla or Casters. I'd rather spend my time finding the information I need to play IN the game.
Comment Posted by: Keisa on August 1, 2006 02:25 PM
"Since we can't edit posts I want to add for the benefit of Keisa that I don't find anything immersive about looking stuff up on Alla or Casters. I'd rather spend my time finding the information I need to play IN the game."
You know, I find that comment very interesting for two reasons. Just like WOW, you can actually go around and talk to the NPCs. The particular NPC you mentioned will let you know that he wants the belts and will pay you for them. There's nothing magical about getting that quest, other than the fact that there is no quest window to remind you that you have it.
The second reason is that Alakhazam and Caster's Realm provide the exact same service for WOW, and in fact many other games as they do for EQ. You can look up quests, rewards, NPC locations on those sites for WOW just as easily as you can for EQ.
So, enlighten me. What distinction were you trying to make between the two games?
Keisa
Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on August 1, 2006 03:16 PM
Example of EQ-style quest:
I remember having a nice stein once but i lost it.
(you figure out the rest, after hours and hours you find out he would give you some spare change that would make a beggar angry upset)
Example of a WoW-style quest:
I remember having a nice stein once but I Lost it around this specific forest, near a cavern north of the Blackfish Lake. If you go there and get it for me, I will repay you with this copper, not much but it’s all I can afford. Are you interested?
So, in the WoW one you will be given enough information as to actually know where to head (no markers in the map other than people in town to talk to, just enough information to know what to do.) In EQ, you are often told next to nothing and expected to stumble across the item he needs some day. You are actually forced to go look for information offline to know what to do next.
The sites you mention are often used in WoW to know where X or Y item tends to drop and for people to hunt down a quest based on the reward they are interested in, rather than just to know how to solve the darn thing.
Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on August 1, 2006 03:18 PM
There should be an edit button here...
Anyways, not only you get enough information to figure out the quest, but you also are told from the get go if the reward is something that will be worth your while. EQ2 also does this, although the quest descriptions still tend to be a bit on the vague side.
Comment Posted by: Brumms on August 1, 2006 05:04 PM
Interesting posts.
I wonder how much of the disparity can be attributed to the phasing in of more and more no drop loot. There is not a lot of 'trickle-down' these days.
The gap between group obtainable and raid obtainable equipment is very wide and gives a disincentive for both raiders and non-raiders alike to play with new people or try the more difficult zones respectively.
Itemisation in particular, has been exceptionally poor since GoD, in so far as loots have largely (with a few exceptions) just been a case of Luclin or PoP loot +1. Not much in the way of imagination for a couple of years. The inflation effect does kill the game for the have-nots, and limits it for the haves.
To really grow the game might need a step back, and a wholesale review of older content. This is so much rich content, that jst isn't appreciated because past mistakes in design have not been addressed.
Comment Posted by: Feif of Quellious / Email on the boards. on August 1, 2006 05:35 PM
People enjoy different things about EQ. Some enjoy raids and others like casual groups. Some have more time, and others have less. I would probably make a good raid bard; however, real life keeps me from playing too much. Overall "not" being able to play has kept me playing. It's true that some guilds are able to maintain a good balance; however, there will always be some things they will be intolerant about.
Raiders can take a step back into casual play, but as long as they're having fun and it's not affecting their real life - why should they? They are at a point in the game they've worked towards since they purchased the game. I do feel a lot of the content is top heavy, but there are still some things many of us can do to 'grind' our way to the top.
I could quit and join another game; however, I prefer to keep my moderate playstyle. I will work towards a set of goals, and check them off my list. It may take me a while to complete them all, but I will eventually get them done and hopefully SoE will develop something else for me to work towards. The downside is that I may never get them checked off while the content is still popular with the majority of players. The gear may be subpar to what others have already, but who cares? The next expansion they'll be something popular that should replace some of what I am looking for, and I may find myself in the right group at the right time. Most of the spells are usually replacements for lower level spells and may be easier to obtain, or the power from the new expansion will make earlier content easier to do and pursue with friends.
Raiding vs casual is more about "when" you can access content, who you are willing to socialize with (how they treat others, and who you're willing to take under your wing), and how much time do you want to put into something that will be outdated in six months when the next expansion releases. Those who get their the fastest are in the highest levels of raiding. Casuals just have to have the patience to wait a few more expansions for the power curve to weight into their favor.
Today's raid content is tomorrow's casual content. If it's not then something is out of balance. TSS should offer something for both. If it doesn't they've got another six months to work on more content. Maybe one of these years SoE will create official "Alliances" where guilds can merge without forcing everyone into a single super guild.
Comment Posted by: bleh on August 1, 2006 05:54 PM
between chat channels and the raid window, what more would be reasonably useful for an 'alliance' that isn't already possible in some manner ?
Comment Posted by: sunshadow on August 1, 2006 07:01 PM
"Today's raid content is tomorrow's casual content." What a load of bollocks, Name raid mobs that are single groupable by casual players today and you won't find many past Velious Era. If you think OMM is going to be single groupable any time in the next 5 years you need your head read, and he is already 3 years old.
If casuals were able to tackle Raids Mob within 2 expansions of when they were released, I don't think we would have all the winging and bitching we see now, but as it is casual guilds are still struggleing with POP, let alone GOD and OoW. Real paths need to be opened up to allow guild to be able to find ways to get these area's done or get them bypassed.
Comment Posted by: RosesareRed on August 1, 2006 07:42 PM
AMEN .... Ogulbuk and Sunshadow.
Comment Posted by: Glormane on August 2, 2006 06:46 AM
I live in the UK and I play on a US server. Friends of mine enticed me over, to join the guild they were in and promptly quit the game. Four years later I am an Officer in that guild, which is a non-compulsory Family style raiding guild. They raid 3 week nights, Saturdays and every other Sunday. As the week night raids start at midnight GMT, I cant attend. I attend all the Saturday/Sunday raids.
When GOD came out, my girlfriend and I got together with a few guys in our guild and started working the GOD sewers and tipt/vxed for access to KT. None of us were time flagged then, and it was tough, but we plugged away at it.
OOW came out and again we tried out the MPG trials and not only beat them all, but we farmed each one for upgrading gear. We all eventually beat tipt and all got a bracer. I hope I haven’t sugar coated that too much, our first Fear trial, the easiest of the MPG trials, last about 30 seconds. The GOD trials took months to beat, but each week (no sleep lost) we went back, beat an MPG trial, lost a GOD trial, or vice versa.
Over the years some of the personnel has changed, but because of my LdoN days, I’d learned how to put together a group,and those who stopped playing or moved on we replaced, with people like us who wanted to upgrade, but didn’t want to depend on raids alone.
While we were doing this we were raiding, some Luclin bosses, some POP flags, and I did get some upgrades, Seru’s 2 hander, Elemental Gloves to name a few, but most of my gear was starting to be obtained through groups.
Just before DoN came out, we beat the Ikkinz group trials, and more upgrades abounded. We started in on the quests that would eventually enable our guild to do the Ikk raid trials.
My frustrations with the lack of Warriors in my guild getting Bane weapons for Seru led to me, a Paladin, doing the skilling and questing to get a bane weapon. Along with my Guildleader, an SK, we tanked Seru.
When DoN came out, we worked as a group the progression up until the raid level and then got our Guild on board to do the Emoush raid and obtained my lvl 69 Disc. We worked on Cultural Armour and threw away the last pieces of LDON armour.
But DoD, DoD was the expansion that brought a load of group upgrades. We beat 68.3 and 68.5 when Qvic equipped people were complaining they were too hard, you asked for a set of 200hp/mana/end armour pieces, well they are all there in DoD, because we got them all as well.
Now PoR is here and I have my TOB key, but we are gearing up in QVIC so we have no need for the armour in TOB.
The point is, you can progress without being a Hard-Core raider. You just have to put a bit of thought into things, plan where you are heading, form some firmer friendships than a one-pick-up-group stand.
I fear that this article has come about because, Loral has seen his fiancé, go from casual player (or non raider, I mean neither term in a derogatory manner) to raider. The change in gear will have been huge. As I said previously in Lorals last article, this is an interim stage, the upgrades in gear will start to thin out as she joins the level of her fellow guildies. But you don’t have to be hardcore to see these things.
Comment Posted by: Bonkers on August 2, 2006 07:32 AM
Glormane, you've pretty much summed up why people show little sympathy for casuals who complain about not getting what the "ubers" have.
There are plenty like you who play this game and know there is a progression to it. That no matter what they might wish, it takes more than soloing improve. And it takes time no matter your playstyle to see this improvements.
If you don't have a network of friends to call upon, join a guild and make some. More importantly join a guild that raids even if it is once a month.
If you don't want to join a guild, don't want to raid, don't want to make friends, don't want to do content older than Theatre of Blood, don't want to play more than a couple hours a week, don't want research or ask what options they have, and aren't happy with the status quo...well, why are you still playing EQ? There must be something that keeps you coming back and it must not be the 300hp/mana bracer you can't get solo.
Comment Posted by: Keisa on August 2, 2006 10:12 AM
"Example of EQ-style quest:
I remember having a nice stein once but i lost it.
(you figure out the rest, after hours and hours you find out he would give you some spare change that would make a beggar angry upset)"
I think it would be worth looking at a quest in EQ to see if this statement is true. For our test subject, why don't we take the quest we've been discussing in this thread, the Crushbone belt quest?
You say, 'Hail, Canloe Nusback'
Canloe Nusback says 'Step forward and speak up, young ______! Kaladim can always use another warrior. Are you [ready to serve Kaladim] or has a yellow streak appeared down your back?'
You say, 'I am ready to serve Kaladim.'
Canloe Nusback says 'Then serve you shall. Let your training begin on the battlefields of Faydwer. Seek out and destroy all [Crushbone orcs]. Return their belts to me. I shall also reward you for every two orc legionnaire shoulder pads returned. A warrior great enough to slay one legionnaire shall surely have no problem with another. Go, and let the cleansing of Faydwer begin.'
You say, 'What Crushbone orcs?'
Canloe Nusback says 'The army of the Crushbone orcs is deadly indeed. They are great military strategists. It was a legion of them that brought down the great [Trondle Ogrebane]. Speak with Furtog Ogrebane about the Crushbones. He has need of warriors such as you.'
I didn't continue with the text from this NPC, because it is related to another quest. In short, he tells you what he wants and where to find information about the task at hand. I seem to remember similar quests when I was playing WOW... Bring me a rock. Talk to xyz about where to find them. This quest provides the same level of detail as those quests I did in WOW. The only differences I can remember are that you don't have a list of 30 or so quests and you cannot repeat most WOW quests over and over like you can this one. Newer quests in EQ do have a quest tracking system similar to WOWs, but I am not sure they've gone back and added all the old quests to it.
Most of the newbie quests are like this. You'll pretty much get a task and general directions on where to go to complete it, much like the newbie quests in WOW. I see next to no differences.
There are quests in EQ where you were supposed to have to work to solve them, epic quests come to mind. The developers intentionally muddied the waters, often giving vague clues. These are tailored for people that like exploring and figuring things out. I doubt that newbies are likely to be doing many of them, so saying that the quests are confusing to newbies isn't applicable when worrying about these. Besides, much as you may hate going online to get a guide, you may have to do that in order to get your epic unless you are the type of person that likes solving these kinds of puzzles.
Granted, there are also poorly implemented quest or downright broken quests in EQ. I never let those give me heartburn. There were always fun things for me to do in the game without fretting over what didn't work.
The new quests that have been developed for newbies are all straight forward, tell you exactly where to go and what is expected, and use the quest system. That makes them very similar to WOW quests.
When it comes down to it, the major difference I recognize between WOW and EQ quests was the magnitude of *easy peazy* quests available in WOW. There were literally hundreds of FedEx quests, bring me a rock quests, slay 20 globules quest, etc. Every zone was chock full of quests that could mostly be soloed in a very short time. However, there are plenty of quests available for low level characters in EQ.
Keisa
Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on August 2, 2006 10:13 AM
Bonkers, the desire to improve your character in groups or solo do not equal wanting to get uber raider's phat lewt.
A person that can’t do all you listed should not be locked into snail progression, they should in one way or another be able to experience tangible goals, fun and varied encounters, and upgrades.
Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on August 2, 2006 11:13 AM
I agree there are a quiet a few descriptive low-level quests in EQ, but truth is they fade after your early teens. By your 20s you are lost in a grind and the quests you find will be as vague as I described.
I do hope the next expansion’s content to be different.
Additionally WoW has both type of quests, the kill count, FedEx type, and the quiet lore filled ones. Even so, every single kill count quest I seen in WoW has a lore justification to it, and the most mundane of reasons still have significant albeit short flavor text. (in other words, entertaining but to the point), more than I can say for the EQ equivalent (the task system) that tends to just tell me to “kill this”.
Comment Posted by: Keisa on August 2, 2006 12:17 PM
"Bonkers, the desire to improve your character in groups or solo do not equal wanting to get uber raider's phat lewt."
I partially agree with your statement. I think that is true for some people, but not for others. I think there are lots of people that will never be happy unless they get the "phat lewt," and they are not particularly happy with the requirements/constraints that are required in order to obtain it.
"A person that can’t do all you listed should not be locked into snail progression, they should in one way or another be able to experience tangible goals, fun and varied encounters, and upgrades."
I think that what Bonkers was saying is that there is plenty of ways for solo and group players to "be able to experience tangible goals, fun and varied encounters, and upgrades." I think those features are available at all levels of play. It is all a matter of expectation. The problem part of it is in the definition of those things.
Tangible Goals: I have tons of goals that are mainly single groupable. From the day I started playing the game until today, I generally had 5-20 tasks I wanted to complete, what with prayer shawls, epics, trials, keys and flags, and equipment I wanted, there is an endless list of things to work on. The day that list runs out will probably be the day I am no longer interested in playing the game.
Fun and Varied Encounters: How is it that people are having so much fun on the progression servers today in content that has a ceiling of level 60? The popularity of those servers is amazing, far more than I ever would have expected. Yet, so many people claim that the game doesn't start until 60 or even 70. The truth is that there are fun events at all levels. When I look back on what I found most fun in my day, it was...
- breaking Fear when it was really, really hard
- surviving a 30 minute fight in Cazic Thule
- doing LDON missions (available at level 20)
- working my way through Keasora (sp?), Guk, etc.
- doing DODh missions
Only Fear was in a raid situation, and now that can be soloed. Fun is where you find it. Variety is out there.
Upgrades: Some people aren't happy with improving what they have incrementally. If they have 50 hp gear, they aren't happy with an increase that yields 100 hp gear when they can see that others have 400 hp gear. I consider that an unreasonable expectation. Most raiders don't just magically get to 400 hp gear. they started with 50, went to 75, then to 100, then to 150 and so on. As a raider, I'm happy any time I can improve a single piece of gear by 50 or so hp. Many casuals would not be happy with such an improvement in their gear. That is a telling difference, and I think it is a major source of discontent.
I think you hit on what is the road to happiness. If you can accomplish the things above, then you will enjoy the game. The trouble is that people have unrealistic expectations, and they aren't happy just to improve what they have, but must be competitive with what others have. When they don't have time to compete, but want to be competitive, then they are doomed to feeling second best.
There is always better stuff out there, even for raiders.
Keisa
Comment Posted by: bleh on August 2, 2006 01:12 PM
"I think you hit on what is the road to happiness. If you can accomplish the things above, then you will enjoy the game. The trouble is that people have unrealistic expectations, and they aren't happy just to improve what they have, but must be competitive with what others have. When they don't have time to compete, but want to be competitive, then they are doomed to feeling second best."
Wow, so very nicely stated.
Comment Posted by: Juror on August 2, 2006 01:32 PM
The upgrades have started to slow down, Glormane. I am glad. I feel like I am contributing more. Even though my new guildies would fuss at me for even thinking it, I do feel a sense of debt and the need to somehow repay their generosity.
Loral saw me struggle with decision and make a choice. Now he is asking himself the same questions. That’s natural.
Both of us are pretty competitive. We play a fair amount. We read and research game a lot. We have explored many zones and talked to many folks. We have both run raids and led guilds or organizations on server. We know where to get X and about how many people it takes to do Y (or can look up that information.) We have seen what content is accessible to raiders but not non-raiders. Perhaps that is part of the problem. Even though we haven’t maxxed out our characters, we have experienced first-hand some of the limitations that non-raiders face in the game. We set goals for ourselves that we thought were reasonable but weren't able to achieve them.
Could I have remained in non-raiding guild and done what I wanted to do? Maybe. I tried and gave up because I couldn’t find enough people willing / able to do pickups. With more time, effort, and luck, I probably would have succeeded. I do believe that the game itself is set up so as to encourage folks to raid at higher levels though. What people consider to be the best rewards are only available via raids.
There is a sense that "raiders" are haves and "casuals" are have nots. Players to a certain degree create the division between the two. There isn’t a line in the sand that once you cross over makes you a “raider.” There is no “raider” tattoo that can never be removed. You can be a casual raider / raid casually. When I went from “casual” to “raider,” all I did was change guilds and begin raiding regularly. I am the same person that I was before. To close the "gap" and find more satisfaction in game, we may need to get rid of some of the stereotypes and misperceptions of "casuals" and "raiders."
Comment Posted by: Juror on August 2, 2006 02:28 PM
In WoW, it's possible to get from level 1 to 60 just by doing quests. Sure many are easy or repetitive but at least there is a variety of them. The lore is a little cheesy at times but I paid attention to what NPC said because it was short and gave me clues to follow. If I didn't finish quest before I went to bed, log of what I had done and still needed to do was sitting there waiting for me when I came back. I didn't have to take notes myself.
For a game called Everquest, there really should be more quests at all levels. I loved doing quests when I first started playing. They were fun and took you all over the place. You didn't need lots of people to help you with them. You could solo or duo several quests. Sometimes you even saw cool things or got upgrades as result. I printed out lists and did every one that I could find (that wasn't broken.)
Not sure why but I don't feel the same way at quests at higher levels. They are few and far between and seem to involve more research / work. I would like to see more progressive quests and quests that didn't require hundreds of combines, days of camping, or begging a bunch of people for assistance.
I guess you could argue that missions are quests. I do enjoy them. If you can find good group, they aren't a grind.
Comment Posted by: Feif of Quellious / Email on the Boards on August 2, 2006 03:05 PM
My main conception or misconception between the two.
- Raiding requires more time and devotion
That thought alone has kept me as a casual grouper. When I've got the time to play I do not want to spend 30min looking for a group. I would rather say, "/guild Anyone got an opening, if not let's go do xyz." That was one reason I liked the MM's when they were so popular. Getting a group was fast and an efficient use of my time.
I've never really cared about getting the best gear, though I've always enjoyed helping others who did care about it. Being able to go do something on the spur of the moment with your friends is always the best route (with how I play) and the main reason I would stickup for any of them. I have never been one to encourage one way to play, nor have I been one who has felt you have to put classes/people into cookie cutter roles.
- How others are treated (in groups or on raids)
When it comes to learning how to play, the big question is should it be done in groups or on a raid and how do you deal with it. My biggest pet peeve is when people make an issue out of a players lack of skill. Learn to deal with it. Part of playing a multi-player game is learning how to work with others. There is a difference between being rude and giving friendly advice. If you play with others long enough, you learn how they play and can also learn to compensate or learn how to make friendly suggestions.
Whether or not it's the truth, the following are just pure rude. It's not that all raiders have these type of personalities, it's that they are stereotyped to be such.
/tell Soandso, "You suck!"
/group "Soandso is a newb. Make me leader so I can disband him."
I do not put up with attitudes like that and I highly doubt Juror will ever degress to becoming that type of player. She may or may not have to learn to deal with those attitudes. I hope she does not run into them, and that she enjoys her time raiding.
I may have it all wrong. I may in fact BE wrong in my attitude, but that's what makes EQ so great. You choose how you want to play and who you want to play with.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on August 2, 2006 07:20 PM
Juror wrote: In WoW, it's possible to get from level 1 to 60 just by doing quests. Sure many are easy or repetitive but at least there is a variety of them. The lore is a little cheesy at times but I paid attention to what NPC said because it was short and gave me clues to follow. If I didn't finish quest before I went to bed, log of what I had done and still needed to do was sitting there waiting for me when I came back. I didn't have to take notes myself.
-----
I started a Troll Shaman myself when I got a free 10 day pass to WoW from a friend. I have been able to solo all the quests from level 1 to 18 except for a instanced dungeon that I got help with from someone I met while in wow.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on August 3, 2006 01:55 AM
Yes, the outdoor quests in WoW are the solo content, and yes, you can level up to 60 doing that solo content. People who like to group run instances. (There are quests for instances, but they can usually be done in one trip. People who like to group will come back to an instance many times for xp and dropped loot.)
You'd think EQ veterans would be proactive about choosing their playstyle in WoW, but in my experience they seem to be to be absolutely religious about picking up every quest they find and completing all of them--even the boring ones. Then they complain that WoW is all about soloing, when in reality they're the ones who chose to focus on the solo content. For whatever reason they seem to treat their quest log as a to-do list. I'll leave speculating about the cause of that as an exercise for the reader.
Comment Posted by: Phrank on August 3, 2006 06:14 PM
"you can level all the way to 60 in WoW doing quests"
Nice to see another poster with no clue about what they are saying. This is patently untrue and any actual player know this.
You can solo to 60 (have done it with my hunter) but you will never make 60 only doing quests.
Just more urban legend.
As to raiding, whatever floats your boat, but even SoE says it is a very small percentage but for some strange reason they still cater to them to the exclusion of all others. Just boggles my mind as to what ignorant management they really must have over there.
Comment Posted by: Wiggles on August 3, 2006 07:03 PM
Can you imagine if the next expansion they had 1 group missions that gave loot as good as Anguish gear(since that expansion is so old now). Does anyone think that's right? If they did that they may as well delete every other zone in the game except for TSS ones because they would be meaningless.
SOE puts the raid content in every expansion because it's good for people waiting on for the next challenge, it's good for the up and coming guilds that know they have more to do (or skip what they are doing if they can) and it's good for the people who don't raid to know that there is something else, something more challenging to this game. You're free to try it or not.
I don't think it's the majority of the content but it is the most difficult, more rewarding and therefore most talked about. Posting such and such beat 69.3 isn't nearly as newsworthy as someone beating Sullon Zek.
I find people who refuse to join guilds once they're max level and complain there is nothing to do or that their gear is inferior to such-and-such's really have little to base their arguement on except cold jealously.
There are plenty of people in my guild that play once or twice a week, sometimes less. However, when they do log in, there is always something going on for them to join in on. When it comes to loot, they usually get the less contested items or they have saved up for a particular item and get it even if it took longer than a steady player.
To me, becoming a raider means willing to work as a team to accomplish set goals even if they do not (immediately) benefit yourself. Your commitment to this goal will determine just what you can raid - some guilds simply expect more of your time than others but you can still raid. However you can before a raider, do things you never thought you'd see in EQ, improve your character, and have a ball doing it all without sacrificing your RL priorities.
The casual players, or the disenchanter ones at least, should spend a little bit of time and decide just what it is they want to accomplish in EQ and set out to do it. The days of logging in and going lfg in one of the 2-3 zones to grind exp for a few hours are long gone. People are spead out over a dozen+ zones and instances, doing numerous quests, missions, raids, farming, even a little exp'ing if you're lucky. These people have goals and they are trying to complete them. What are doing besides sitting in PoK, alone, expecting someone to hand you your phat lewt?
Comment Posted by: Loral on August 3, 2006 09:01 PM
"Can you imagine if the next expansion they had 1 group missions that gave loot as good as Anguish gear(since that expansion is so old now). Does anyone think that's right? If they did that they may as well delete every other zone in the game except for TSS ones because they would be meaningless."
How far back should they go before they release single-group gear that is on-par with raid gear? POP? GoD?
I don't see why a group of people can't progress to Anguish level gear given enough time and enough of a challenge.
Three expansions back seems about right to me. Especially when the level range goes up by 5.
You don't have to delete old zones, but high-end raid content will eventually fade away as Velious, Luclin, and much of POP has already done. This is the way things progress.
Comment Posted by: sunshadow on August 3, 2006 10:20 PM
In TSS the lvl70+ based group content should at a minumum be droping CoA equivilent stuff. The reason casuals gripe is because the gear difference between raiding and grouping is so different. If you now say casual groupers can't have equipment equal to 3 year old raid gear then how does that help fix the problem????????
SOE really need to define things so that there is only a 12-18 month difference between when gear moves from Raid level to group level. If that happens most of the whingers will shut up. They will be able to see, if I want uber loot A1 then I will be able to get it without raiding in a reasonable amount of time.
Comment Posted by: Glormane on August 4, 2006 04:13 AM
Ogulbuk said “A person that can’t do all you listed should not be locked into snail progression, they should in one way or another be able to experience tangible goals, fun and varied encounters, and upgrades.”
Is it cant or wont? Cant raid 7 nights a week? I think that’s fair enough, it’s extreme. But cant check the web for upgrades, quests, paths to tread to get upgrades? Whats wrong don’t they have computers?
Cant form friendships or groups? Cant or wont? If you cant raid at high level you have to look for alternatives, and SOE have provided them, but rather than give you them easily (you’d quit, if you got everything you ever wanted, you would quit) you have to do some work for them.
Soloing is possible, but SOE have said time and again the design of the game is for groups, so yes a person that cant do all that’s listed SHOULD be locked into snail progression because they have chosen to shun any and every possible method of helping themselves.
Juror said “For a game called Everquest, there really should be more quests at all levels.”
I’d agree. In the last few expansions there haven’t been many quest lines. I am not counting spell missions. I’d like a few more quests like BIC and some individual quests.
"Can you imagine if the next expansion they had 1 group missions that gave loot as good as Anguish gear(since that expansion is so old now). Does anyone think that's right? If they did that they may as well delete every other zone in the game except for TSS ones because they would be meaningless."
Its been done. DoD missions, the easy ones, 68.1 etc had better rewards than P1 in time. The POR cloak quest pretty much negated any cloak from GOD and previous expansions ,including raid drops.
Comment Posted by: Wiggles on August 4, 2006 07:36 AM
No, I'm talking about Anguish level gear which as you can see the lazy, sorry, casual players, want to have handed to them. So what if it's 3 epansions old, what have you been doing all this time then? Go do it now, just like the dozens of other guilds in Time/Gates/OoW, etc. If might come as a shock to you but there are more players raiding 2-3 year old content than there are doing PoR end zones. Yet, you want to skip all that, make their efforts meaningless and just get 1 group events to get the same rewards.
The 1 or 2 slots given free loots are simply "buy this expansion" teasers.
I'm sure the typical "casual" player who spends more time in game and trolling eq forums then their so-called uber rivals truly believes they deserve to do nothing more than log in be given CoA drops that other people spent years trying to gain and are still at it.
Loral, why don't you organize a revolt like Woody did during GoD. Get every non-raider to cancel their accounts in protest (The crack babies can relax and still play until their billing time ends). The shear numbers should make SOE sit up and take notice, right? The GoD-era fiasco was enough for SOE to re-evaluate the situation. Think you can drum up enough solidarity to pull it off? If people can't stand up and speak with their wallets, nothing will change.
Comment Posted by: Juror on August 4, 2006 08:40 AM
I have leveled hunter and pally to level 60, Phrank. I did it mostly through quests. I did many quests solo but I also had lots of help from my guild. Bet I could get my druid to 60 only with quests. Course I would probably be so tired of morrowgrain and such that I would go mad, head to the Plaguelands, and kill everything in sight. It would take considerably more time which is why nobody does it. Instead people grab as many quests as they can for a particular zone and work on them while hunting regularly. Too bad you can't do something similar in EQ.
Comment Posted by: concerned1 on August 4, 2006 09:58 AM
wiggles: why do you hate casual players? in truth; you should love them. do you realize that less then 10% of the eq playerbase is "uber raiders"?(soe claimed that number to be like 2%) so guess who is keeping eq open so you can get more uber? ding,ding,ding,ding.....you guessed it....casual players.basically this means all the ubers could quit eq and it would only feel a little pinch. but....if the casuals quit.....oh my.i would also like to point this out to some of you: eq is just a video game; i dont care how much you think you are getting "immersed" it is only a fake virtual world. it is not real.
Comment Posted by: Krylax on August 4, 2006 10:03 AM
Wiggles said "why don't you organize a revolt" Now usually I don't care for Wiggles's posts, they tend to be full of intolerence and immature sarcasim. However, even I have to admit that he (or she) has hit the nail right on the head. Nothing short of a full scale boycott is gonna resolve this. That is why my account was cancelled, but a few people cancelling their accounts won't do it. It will take solidarity. If you keep giving SOE your money every month you have noone to blame for your unhappiness but yourself.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on August 4, 2006 10:27 AM
And when you do go postal in EPL, Juror, you'll end up with a nice pile of scourgestones. Which, of course, you'll turn in to complete Argent Dawn quests. You could go from 51 to 60 doing nothing but killing undead for scourgestones if you really wanted to (not that I recommend it). I suspect Phrank forgot about repeatable quests entirely.
Comment Posted by: Juror on August 4, 2006 02:10 PM
Exactly my point. Technically you could be hunting in WoW in any zone/instance for drops for faction quests and be gaining experience from that quest. Even the BGs have quests.
As far as a boycott goes, if game is making you that angry/upset (be you "raider" or "casual") then by all means, cancel your account. You are paying to have fun. Are you having fun? If not, do something about it. Life is short and there are many other things that you could do with your time on Earth. If enough people feel the same way then number of subscribers (whatever number that is) will drop to the point where Sony will either change EQ or let it die. If you are still enjoying game but want to see specific improvements (like Qvic or Anquish level gear attainable via series of single group hunts) that would make it more fun to play then ask Sony directly for what you want or bonk Loral until he sends them another ebil agenda.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on August 4, 2006 02:33 PM
teremar wrote: You'd think EQ veterans would be proactive about choosing their playstyle in WoW, but in my experience they seem to be to be absolutely religious about picking up every quest they find and completing all of them--even the boring ones. Then they complain that WoW is all about soloing.
-=---
I love doing all the solo quests in wow myself. for a couple of them I even grouped with a friend. and no I didnt make 18 doing only quests there have been stints where I just killed mobs to kill mobs since they were in the way of herbs for my herbalism skill or because I was hopeing for a rare drop.
Comment Posted by: Loral on August 5, 2006 01:14 PM
The great irony of the non-raider is that, if they could be so well organized as to lead a revolt, they could likely go raid and get the gear that they want.
I will lead no revolt. As Juror said, if it bothers anyone that much, there are better ways to spend ones time and money.
It's a problem in the game and one that doesn't look like its going away any time soon. I think a big part of it is that the past two expansions didn't have a lot of content for non-raid-equipped high-level players and that set us back a bit. Omens had a lot more and Dragons had a lot but the focus was wrong. Time will tell with Serpent's Spine.
On Monday I will post my preview article of the Serpent's Spine. I am betting this topic will be discussed there as well.
Comment Posted by: MENLENIEL on August 5, 2006 04:29 PM
Unfortunately, soloing was all that was good about WOW. I was in the top raid guild on my server, found that to be way inferior to eq raiding.
Comment Posted by: Sunshadow on August 6, 2006 07:52 PM
After a frustrating weekend, SOE really need to come up with a way to make forming and maintaining groups easier. In todays game the fluid group dynamic is gone and it needs to be brought back. Whether it be zones that cater for all play styles allowing for replacements to be close at hand or ways to pull people from any zone to where the group is.
Being a necro, I can solo effectively. However I always whack up LFG and solo in NC as I still need some runes so being in NC I am more likely to be asked for any WoS or MPG groups. This weekend I got a tell for a MPG group, I run over we kill for 10 minutes then tank has to go. We look for another tank , the only one interested is 20mins away so group falls apart.
This is so common nowdays. A group forms in PoK, goes somewhere but as soon as one of the 3 needed classes leaves it take to long to replace them and the groups fall apart.
I know some people say it is now a lot easier to move around the game, so stop whinging. While this is true it is no longer the case that the group replacements are in the same zone as you. The time it take to replace group members really needs to be addressed.
While TSS is stated as having large open zones I hope they don't make the same mistake they made with Arcstone which is to make all the mobs summon and give them some sort of trashy ability. In the old days a lot of groups formed by 1 person soloing the being joined by a friend and so forth and building up a group from there. In PoR this is not possible so it really kills the expansion as you have to pre-form the group before going there. I mean the fact that every mob summons even precludes kiting groups from forming (yes there is a group type that does not need tank/healer/slower). Looking just in Arcstone the fire mobs and mistwalkers would be good kite mobs if they didn't summon. The fact they spawn an add would make it interesting but not impossible, they could I suppose still be solo'd then but again keeping 2 mobs snared is a challange and would be a fair amount of risk.
Note: the above refers to the average player. Yes I have seen ubers solo Arcstone named.
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License. Email Mike at mike@mikeshea.net for more questions or comments.