"Nothing makes me want to play a brand new game like spending nine hours downloading it from the internets."

Snapping the Serpent's Spine

by Loral on July 16, 2006

Last week, Sony Online Entertainment announced the upcoming release of The Serpent's Spine, Everquest's twelfth expansion. This expansion breaks away from expansions primarily tuned for higher-level players and returns to expansions such as Ruins of Kunark and Shadows of Luclin by including a new race and content beginning at level 1.

Back in April, at the Spring 2006 Fan Faire, SOE had discussed a few of the details of this expansion, though the name was not yet released. The developers described it as a new beginning for Everquest. New players would have a chance to enter Everquest and progress from level 1 to level 75 without ever leaving the expansion. New players would be able to buy this expansion, take it home, and get right into the game as though it were completely new.

More surprising than the announcement of the new Drakkin race - the impact of which I will discuss in a future article - was the announcement that the game would only be available for download only. This method of distribution has not taken place since Legacy of Ykesha. Every other expansion has been a box on a shelf.

The choice to release the Serpent's Spine only as a download contradicts the intent of bringing new players to the game. New players aren't likely to surf around to SOE's website and wait for half a day to download a gigabyte of code and artwork. They are much more likely to buy a new glossy package on the shelf. A retail box is the best way to get new players into EQ.

I cannot begin to understand why anyone would think this is a good idea. Perhaps a boxed version of this expansion, or a new compilation pack including The Serpent's Spine, is due for release during the Christmas season. Perhaps SOE's marketing department knows secrets we can't possibly understand. Perhaps, and pardon me if I slip into paranoia, SOE is purposefully reining back Everquest to improve the sales of Everquest 2. As it appears now, the attempt to draw in new players with the Serpent's Spine seems cut off at the knees.

This is unfortunate since every other attribute of this expansion seems strong. A new player race, new level 1 to 75 content, the new level increase, and a focus on large open zones and numerous quests could all build an excellent new expansion.

SOE should reconsider their plan to release The Serpent's Spine as a download-only expansion and release a full retail package. With a retail package, the Serpent's Spine would be the strongest new way to get Everquest in the hands of new players.

Loral Ciriclight
16 July 2006
loral@loralciriclight.com

Post a new message.

Comment Posted by: Aarkan on July 16, 2006 01:41 PM

They should release Serpent's Spine as a box with all the expansions OR allow new Titanium users to download it. If it's $30 I don't see any reason why it can't include all the previous expansions in a glossy gold box with a drakkin and a big dragon in front of mountains or something on the cover. It needs to be out for the winter holiday season for sure, if that doesn't happen we can safely say that SoE is no longer supporting EQ as a frontrunning game.

Comment Posted by: Cloudkraken on July 16, 2006 01:51 PM

I just hope SOE is going to send out free copies of EtN to everyone and everywhere. And each time the demo loads up, it will download a little piece of SS. So by the time the trial/demo has ended, the players have the option to subscribe to SS and continue their adventure.

Comment Posted by: Retsin on July 16, 2006 02:40 PM

SOE should take TSS as an opportunity to completely relaunch Everquest. They should absolutely put it on store shelves in a shiny gold box that includes ALL past expansions for no more then $50. They should be treating and marketing it as if it were a completely new game that just happens to include SEVEN YEARS of developed content. WoW has brought a staggeringly massive number of people into the MMO market and a lot of those people have multiple maxed out characters and now, before the WoW expansion hits, is a great opportunity to bring them over to EQ where they would not run out of things to do for years and years.

Not having a boxed version of TSS is a major mistake that severely undermines the entire purpose of this expansion. Maybe SOE has a trick up their sleeves. Maybe there is something they aren't telling us. More likely this is the powers that be at SOE being short sighted and trying to save a few bucks in the short term, but it will ultimately cost them what could be scores of new customers in the long run.

Comment Posted by: Skuz Bukit on July 16, 2006 04:40 PM

It might be that we have gotten the way SoE intends to maket this all wrong, maybe they are letting the "in the know" people have first crack at the expansion for a reason, think bugs & testing & fixes etc, before they pump out a mass media onslaught, including boxes on shelves all in time for christmas?

If not, then SoE are showing they are content to supply content to the current (but steadily dwindling) community, but have no major aspirations to push eq to a wider audience which would be very sad, especially as the Devs have said on many occasions there is much that eq offers & can offer in the future.

Comment Posted by: Loral on July 16, 2006 05:21 PM

"It might be that we have gotten the way SoE intends to maket this all wrong, maybe they are letting the "in the know" people have first crack at the expansion for a reason, think bugs & testing & fixes etc, before they pump out a mass media onslaught, including boxes on shelves all in time for christmas?"

That was my thought too, but I am not sure this is the case. Last year SOE brought out the Titanium pack in February, the worst possible sales month of the year, instead of November, the best one.

I hope you are right and a few months will tell us for sure, but right now, I don't have much faith.

Comment Posted by: concerned1 on July 16, 2006 05:29 PM

i keep seeing these little statements pop up about eq "tapping" or "stealing" some of the people away that wow brought to online gaming. well, what is the biggest difference between wow and eq? it is that eq has increasingly catered to the hardcore gamer(uber) while wow was made for the casual type gamer. eq is not suddenly gonna start catering to casual play style. its a very odd situation becuase the largest part of the game market is casual consumers and even on eq the largest part of the subscription base are casual players.the only reason i can imagine that eq still caters to the hardcore crowd is that the very people designing the content are themselves in uber type guilds and thus trying to keep content so they can be elite or uber...whatever you want to call it. on eq when these "devs" consider making changes to the game do you know who they consult? the other devs and people from top guilds. they dont consult the largest percent of the eq playerbase: casual players. whatever the ubers want they just whine loud about it until they get it. its really a strange situation.but the main point is that it dosent "fly" anymore. theres too much competition out there. new games and of course wow. no, eq wont be taking away plaers from wow and i suspect when the new wow expansion comes out that wow will once again take subscribers from eq. i think alot of people just want to have some fun and get stuff accomplished .they dont want to log on eq and set there lfg with nothing to do because they arent "uber" enough. people are tired of that crap and its all played out.

Comment Posted by: Aarkan on July 16, 2006 07:07 PM

Not having Titanium out in November was the worst idea ever. I would have bought 5 or 6 copies of it for all of my friends, instead I bought EQ2 which they can't run and never played. They seriously need to step up and do TSS right.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on July 16, 2006 10:24 PM

I'm one of those WoW players with multiple maxed-out characters, and I'll attest there's a lot of unhappiness. Leveling up in WoW is a casual gamer's paradise, but after you've been level 60 for a while it's "raid or quit." (Blizzard devs insist the expansion will fix everythying--sound familiar?)

Could EQ pick up some of WoW's frustrated players? Maybe, but I'm dubious. First off, WoW is much faster-paced. Just to illustrate the difference: the longest-casting healing spell in WoW was recently decreased from four seconds to three. In WoW's dynamic combats, committing yourself to a four second heal simply wasn't wise and it wasn't being used. Meanwhile, ten-second CH's are just fine in EQ. Then there's the downtime: in WoW people complain if they can't get to full health and mana by eating and drinking once, which takes 30 seconds. An EQ "med break" would come as a major shock to WoW players. And while a new expansion can add new graphics, it can't do too much with the pacing of the game because it has to stay in balance with all the other expansions.

Less substantively but perhaps more importantly, when WoW players express their frustration with the endgame the complaint is usually "Tigole and Furor turned WoW into EQ." I know that's grossly unfair to EQ. The people who say it probably quit EQ sometime after PoP and before OoW, or are just going by EQ's reputation. In reality, EQ now gives non-raiders far more opportunities for endgame advancement than WoW. But it's the perception that matters, and that's going to be hard to change.

So if you're SOE, how do you solve these problems? Well, one possible solution is you forget about EQ and put your marketing resources into Vanguard (not EQ2, which has nearly the same problems). In that case you don't want EQ competing with your new flagship product. I still think it's too early to say whether SOE has decided to go that route. There's plenty of time to announce a new boxed set for the holiday shopping season. But if they don't, I think we'll know why.

Comment Posted by: Armarant on July 16, 2006 10:42 PM

Teremar: in WoW people complain if they can't get to full health and mana by eating and drinking once, which takes 30 seconds. An EQ "med break" would come as a major shock to WoW players.

that part will be ready for the expansion. they are planning a system that will reduce downtime in everquest by alot and it will be tested in beta.

Comment Posted by: Pomaikai Po'okela on July 16, 2006 11:19 PM

With the last two expansions, EQ has gotten into fewer stores, and in the retail locations where you can purchase a boxed EQ expansion, they have purchased fewer boxes to put on the shelves. So what happened with SS? My guess is that Wal-Mart refused to carry it (Only some stores carried the last expansion and none are currently carrying Titanium.), Best Buy and CompUSA either declined to carry it, or only committed to purchasing very small numbers of boxes, and EB Games, GameStop, etc... only wanted to order presell quantities.

I'm guessing retail shut SOE out, and not the other way around. I think SOE was not prepared for that, and are now regrouping with the whole Digital Download only thing, and are trying to accentuate the positives to offset the negatives of zero retail exposure on this one. What it had better do is drastically lower the cost of the expansion, as SOE no longer has to pay for retail box design and artwork, CD/DVD duplication, shipping, the little in-box toy/keychain, and slotting payments to the big stores to ensure good shelf placement.

I'd also doubt that there will be any sort of little bonus item for the new expansion, as those were incentives for boosting the sales of the retail box. No retail box, no need for an in-game incentive.

Comment Posted by: Greif on July 17, 2006 02:55 AM

Teremar wrote:
"So if you're SOE, how do you solve these problems? Well, one possible solution is you forget about EQ and put your marketing resources into Vanguard (not EQ2, which has nearly the same problems). In that case you don't want EQ competing with your new flagship product."

QFT
Aye, its a frightening thought if you're a loyal EQ1 fan but not out of the realm of possibility of SOE's marketing weasels (who hold no allegiance to any particular game). This is why I am suspicious of SOE buying up Vanguard's distribution rights from MSG. It makes no sense to buy into the same genre MMOG with similar "hardcore" credentials unless you intend to replace one (EQ1) with the other (Vanguard).

A truly awesome vote of confidence in EQ1's future would be that SOE invests the $$$$, time and resources for a complete revamp of EQ1's player models. New player models to completely replace Luclin's old, ugly and obsoletel models. Luclin models were ugly, rushed and is now holding the game back.

Comment Posted by: Richard Hinson on July 17, 2006 09:45 AM

Okay, quick fact check. When was the last time SOE announced "subscriber" numbers?

Someone with more time on thier hands than i can go do a little fact checking, but I would be surprised if SOE has released anything in over a year, more likely two.

SOE capped at about 400k "active accounts" with who knows how many of those being bots, or people with two or more accounts. Since then SOE has cut the number of servers to a little less than half, and few people would consider non-peek times on most of the servers to have a "healthy" population.

So let's face facts, we're all being pretty generous to say SOE has 200k active accounts on the books for EQLive. So they are talking a base bank of something less than 3,000,000.00 a month for operating expenses, and staff.

Now let's look at the current subscriber base. They are for the most part legacy players. People that stayed with the game despite the admitted by SOE gaff of Gate of Discord (later market spun by prathun as content released in expectation of the level increase of Omen's of War, despite 1,000's of pages of documentation on hundreds of websites where SOE admitted they gaffed, go go market spin), the launch of World of Warcraft (the hands down winner for North American MMO subscriber count to date, and making srong headway in the Asian markets), not to mention a host of other minor gaffs that SOE has made that has reduced the player base (can anyone say Win98 required, or DX9 required or Boat!, not to mention Absors persistant bashing of the idea of a 'casual' player or the concept of 'immersion' in a MMO).

Simply put the current player base are all people that no matter how badly SOE treats them, they won't stop playing.

Now take a clear unbiased look at those two concepts from a real world business view. Less than 200k people in a legacy program running on code that is still for the most part over 7 years old that the current programmer staff admits they don't fully understand.

What you have is a cash cow that will continue basically no matter what you do so long as you keep feeding it a little.

What you don't have is a product that will attract a new player base or that has shown any ability to increase in subscriber numbers.

No one is questioning if EQLinve is a good no not. Actually the quality of the game it relatively moot from a business point of view.

The raw reality is the EQLive developers have been given a good 2.5 years to pull the game out of a decline. They have not done so. No sane busness manager at the corporate level or in the marketing department is going to do anything but say no to the idea of a large marketing campaign for and expansion to the game. It's frankly amazing that they haven't cut the staff and reduced the number of expansions to one a year or less.

Comment Posted by: Greif on July 17, 2006 12:56 PM

http://www.mmorpgchart.com/

EQ1 peaked at 550K (that particular data point seems suspicious) but we'll just take it at face value atm. It seems to have taken a free-fall mid 2005, probably when all the subs of defectors to WOW ran out.

Aye, I think the hope for a new models revamp is rather moot in the face of hard economic reality (or rather bean counter weasel reality).

Comment Posted by: Tuppet on July 17, 2006 01:21 PM

downloading an expansion wouldn't be so bad if you could stagger the download somehow. for example, download it in the background during your eq sessions. then when expansion day comes you won't have to spend an entire night downloading, you'll just have to download a small portion of the expansion.

a huge download sucks even if you have a fast connection.

Comment Posted by: Armarant on July 17, 2006 03:51 PM

Tuppet wrote:downloading an expansion wouldn't be so bad if you could stagger the download somehow. for example, download it in the background during your eq sessions. then when expansion day comes you won't have to spend an entire night downloading, you'll just have to download a small portion of the expansion.

------

I beleive they are planning on doing this in the future, but they already do staggered downloads before expansion releases so you can get a couple files a day and avoid downloading the entire expansion in one sitting on release day.

Comment Posted by: Draxxina on July 17, 2006 06:07 PM

Here in Australia, we haven't been able to get a boxed expansion since GoD... SOE no longer ships the boxes over here and we are required to download it. As for the new expansion, perhaps it is finally the shot in the arm that EQ needs to revitalize and rejuvenate it. I for one, am looking forward to it, and perhaps starting my first new character in 3 years!

Comment Posted by: Skuz on July 17, 2006 07:11 PM

Comment Posted by: concerned1 on July 16, 2006 05:29 PM

Regarding what you say about casuals....

There are a whole plethora of websites dedicated to everquest, if the casuals were in such huge numbers unhapy they have as much opportunity as anyone else to voice their concerns, I think for the most part they are either happy or labouring under the deluion that saying something wont change anything, if enough say something it will get changed, so if casuals are seriously unhappy with their lot they only have themselves to blame.

Don't ask, don't get!

@Loral & anyone who has the ear of a SoE dev or marketing guy. Please tell them to push it for a boxed Christmas period release, or re-release if thats a better choice of phrase, I (& i'm sure a good few others) would truly love to see Everquest pull in a new crowd.

Comment Posted by: Armarant on July 17, 2006 07:22 PM

Skuz wrote: There are a whole plethora of websites dedicated to everquest, if the casuals were in such huge numbers unhapy they have as much opportunity as anyone else to voice their concerns

---

but they do voice their concerns. only to be shot down by people who think only their way is the right way to play the game.

Comment Posted by: Hemdell on July 17, 2006 09:19 PM

Most casuals don't surf the message boards or post on them. Its mostly the hard core who do. So to say they dont have concerns and if they dont air them its thier fault is stupid. I am a casual and im getting to the point where if i dont raid i dont get upgrades. That is wrong and most people know it. I cant raid due to not knowing when im going to be on, so according to some people it's my fault. The same people who want new blood in the game are some of the same people who are trying to push people out.

Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on July 17, 2006 09:56 PM

Wow. Just looked at the MMORPG site you listed up there. Didn't realize they had updated it in June. I consider myself very positive about EQ in general and really don't have a lot of complaints. But if those numbers are true, they speak volumes. EQ is now almost at EQ2's levels as well as Star Wars Galaxies. It's dropped significantly since the last time I had looked at that chart:(

http://www.mmorpgchart.com/

Check the Subscribers 70,000 to 700,000. I don't think the game will disappear, but sad to see its numbers have shrunk to 200K (EQ2 is 175K). These numbers are the lowest they've been since before the Year 2000 if the chart is correct.

--Wolfkinder

Comment Posted by: Armarant on July 18, 2006 12:01 AM

Wolfkinder wrote: Wow. Just looked at the MMORPG site you listed up there. Didn't realize they had updated it in June. I consider myself very positive about EQ in general and really don't have a lot of complaints. But if those numbers are true, they speak volumes. EQ is now almost at EQ2's levels as well as Star Wars Galaxies. It's dropped significantly since the last time I had looked at that chart:(

------

that website is just guessing, they never have and never will have the hard numbers. the numbers between July 05 and July 06 are them guessing. and perhaps hopefully makeing big fools out of themselves.

Comment Posted by: phrank on July 18, 2006 01:18 AM

Just guessing? ROFLMAO guess you should get some facts straight before you post such inane comments.
Wishing the numbers higher for EQ won't make it true no matter how thick your rose colored glasses are.

Comment Posted by: concerned1 on July 18, 2006 02:02 AM

see heres the thing that eq devs and highend guild types(uber) either dont want to accept or just dont think about(hell, they just may not care): ok,take me for example: right now......in my life i cannot show you one single person i know, from the oldest person to the youngest person, that has any desire to sit in front of a computer for x amount of hours every single day and raid eq. as far as i know besides 2 friends i have no one else i know even knows what eq is or much less cares about it.yet there is a game out there that is the same genre with eq and has a active player base in the MILLIONS. now,why is that? what is the big difference in the two? what it shows is the majority of consumers either dont have the time nor the desire to put in a game such as eq. like i said before what is so odd about eq is that the largest percentage of its playerbase are casual gamers but eq is a game that caters to hardcore gamers. what would be interesting is to make two sets of spell missions. one with difficulty based on casual gear and one based on hardcore gear.(but the reward is the same) but people can do whatever mission they choose. and make it so the choices are recorded as statistics. now,honestly...do you think anyone would do the hardcore gear missions?it seems even silly to pose such a suggestion but just think about it......

Comment Posted by: xsi on July 18, 2006 02:31 AM

"make two sets of spell missions. one with difficulty based on casual gear and one based on hardcore gear.(but the reward is the same) but people can do whatever mission they choose. and make it so the choices are recorded as statistics. now,honestly...do you think anyone would do the hardcore gear missions?"

Absolutely, they would. What you don't seem to understand about the hardcore is that they delight in BEING hardcore. (Now, they'd also piss and moan on the boards until the drops from the 'casual' series were nerfed, of course).

That doesn't mean that hardcore players are the majority... just that you don't understand their mentality. :)

Comment Posted by: Greif on July 18, 2006 04:12 AM

Wolfkinder wrote:
"But if those numbers are true, they speak volumes. EQ is now almost at EQ2's levels as well as Star Wars Galaxies. It's dropped significantly since the last time I had looked at that chart :( "

GoD killed EQ1 more or less IMHO.
If ever there was a need for an expansion to shine in the face of the impending release of WOW and EQ2 - Gates of Discord was it. But instead of zigging, it zagged and its horrible initial release pushed way too many people to other games. IMO, it will be almost impossible to undo the damage GoD did to EQ1's playerbase.

This B5 quote kinda sums up our (the EQ1 players predicament) in the situation:

"The avalance has already started, its too late for the pebbles to vote"

Comment Posted by: Simkine on July 18, 2006 08:33 AM

I think 200k subs is pretty close. It's more in the ballpark then 500k. Actual numbers are also hard because of the station pass. If they add Vanguard to it, it will make it even murkier. So not only are you trying to figure out how many EQ1 subs you have, you need to find out how many people actual are playing the game regularly.

When I came back to play on the Progression server I checked out my old server for a few weeks. Empty zones abound. Perhaps less than a group here or there, most higher levels than the zone farming items or powerleveling. Late at night, the raiders come online and do their instances and log off.

How is TSS going to fix this? It's not. The majority of people playing won't give up their characters to start over. The release will see a flurry of level 1 Drakkin and within a week all but the dedicated powerlevelers will drop it.

EQ doesn't need more zones for 1-60 or a new race especially as it's not being marketed to new players. If it's really a way to revamp the game engine and models, it's pretty sad they need to "trick" the beancounters this way.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on July 18, 2006 09:27 AM

Why bother? Why not just make a button you can push and get the same gear? Then everybody is uber, and you don't have to worry about how long you have to play the game.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on July 18, 2006 09:31 AM

My guess:

They don�t want to confuse the new user with expansions. I bet they will release this on the shelves ONLY as a full package, be that the full titanium + serpent's spine, or just the classic + serpent's spine.

Can you imagine how painful it may be for new players to be told �oh but you must buy these two boxes to play the game!� or being told in the counter �you want this expansion that�s cheaper or you want the full version that�s more expensive?�

To do this effectively though they have to charge full price for the box, not expansion price, and how many players will be happy to be told how they have to pay full product price for the expansion box? So i guess their intention is for the stand alone expansion only to be available trough download, while the retail copy itself may be called something a bit different and appealing for new players (perhaps just EverQuest) and carry the full shebang.

Comment Posted by: Hemdell on July 18, 2006 12:20 PM

Keisa said

"Why bother? Why not just make a button you can push and get the same gear? Then everybody is uber, and you don't have to worry about how long you have to play the game."

Hey I like that idea. Its better than whats been going on.

Ive been 70 for a year now still missing 3 69 spells and all my 70 spells. That is totally wrong. Ive been to the rune camps here and there but dont have the time to spend 10 hours doing it. Its the things like that, that make it frustrating at times. I mean is it unbalancing to be able to accuire my spells easier? I think not.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on July 18, 2006 12:52 PM

It's just this.

Once, when I was playing Heroes of Might and Magic III, I came up against a really hard scenario. No matter what I did, I couldn't seem to break it. The starting position was really disadvantaged, and by the time I dealt with the first opponent, three others were storming in with massive forces.

I used a cheat code and poof, I had 5 black dragons, yay. I played maybe 3-4 more turns before I realized that winning the game through those means meant no challenge and no fun.

If they make it so we can get all the good stuff in the game with zero effort, what is the point of playing anymore?

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Hemdell on July 18, 2006 01:23 PM

And what is the point if your stuck at that same spot forever and a day? You dont play anymore either! There has to be a happy medium is all im saying. Not everybody has 1k+AA's and groups with those 1k+ people.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on July 18, 2006 02:17 PM

You are stuck? Really?!? There is nothing you can do to improve your character? I don't have all my 70 spells, but I am still able to improve my character. I receive an upgrade of some kind almost weekly. Surely there is something you can do to improve your situation.

The game isn't about getting all the top stuff. It's about using the tools you have to enjoy the game and getting more tools that can help you to enjoy the game.

Your problem is that you are focussed on the things you don't have and cannot easily acquire. You should focus instead on the things that you can acquire that will improve your character. Later, when you have better gear, you can get those things you want.

Take smaller steps and you'll be happier.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Hemdell on July 18, 2006 02:58 PM

No use posting when peeps dont get it..

GL all

Comment Posted by: Skuz on July 18, 2006 06:26 PM

"Comment Posted by: Hemdell on July 18, 2006 02:58 PM

No use posting when peeps dont get it..

GL all"

I would say, from your comments that you are the one that doesn't "get it!"

You are a casual, I am a hardcore raider....but I used to be in a casual family guild, so I do know where your coming from, problem is you need to ask yourself why you play Everquest & what you want from it.

....if all you want are easy loots for minimal effort you are playing the wrong game, if you think you are "stuck" & cannot develop your character any further then you are missing something, probably knowledge.

search on items for your character that can drop from the many sources in this game, unless you have each and every item for your class from every mission & groupable quest in the game (which i very much doubt) then you cannot say you are stuck.

Part of the attraction of Everquest for me is the sense of achievement I get when i land an uber piece of gear....but that sense of achievement comes from having played very hard, in terms of my attention, skill, knowledge, teamworking with others, reflexes & judgement...and of course time.

The people in the top guilds did not get there by being given freebies, & hand outs, for the biggest majority they had to & continue to have to play hard.

Casuals can be hardcore players too, i know many.

Comment Posted by: concerned1 on July 18, 2006 06:59 PM

no,these people get it. they know what is going on but they seek to debunk what others say to benefit or validate themselves. but it dosent really matter because here is what cant be debunked and it pisses them off to the very core: eq has lost what seems to be half its subscription base in recent years. the more uber eq gets;the more people seem to quit.wow caters to the casual player and has a active playerbase in the millions! eq caters to the uber raiders. eq is uber candyland for people that seem to have all the time in the world to play a video game. heck when i still played eq i used to see alt toons of uber mains with gear that was years ahead of my mains gear.and i dont mean a boxed toon.....i mean literally alts that hadnt even hit the highest level. eq will not get any new players of significance because all it will take to run most off is when they see links of uber gear and epic 2.0s and they start asking or looking up info on how they can get it and then they see what a timesink it is they will feel overwhelmed and deem it basically hopeless.the main point to all of this is not that a uber player and casual player is at war BUT that when the devs decided to make eq all about uber gear and take it so far out of reach for some people that they went to far. eq the way it stands now just dosent work . if it did then it could have millions of subscribers .

Comment Posted by: Armarant on July 18, 2006 08:30 PM

Phrank wrote:Just guessing? ROFLMAO guess you should get some facts straight before you post such inane comments.
Wishing the numbers higher for EQ won't make it true no matter how thick your rose colored glasses are.

----

they are just guessing, they dont have press release numbers, and even the press release numbers arent exact numbers.

if anything its people like you who get off thinking of EQ failing.

the numbers may not be as high as they thought EQ was. but EQ didnt lose half its players either.

Comment Posted by: Armarant on July 18, 2006 08:34 PM

Simkine wrote: When I came back to play on the Progression server I checked out my old server for a few weeks. Empty zones abound. Perhaps less than a group here or there, most higher levels than the zone farming items or powerleveling. Late at night, the raiders come online and do their instances and log off.

---
while it may be true many of the old zones you went to were empty.. there are alot of instanced zones in everquest now where people hang in. Lavastorm is not as popular as it used to be but its still up there.. then there is the bazaar.. Knowledge.. doesnt seem like alot of people are in the new expansion but I dont hang out there that much just watching numbers.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on July 19, 2006 09:48 AM

Oh, we get all that, Concerned1. Now, I'll tell you what you don't get. I'll start with a story.

When I was a young lad, I had a conversation with my mother. I told her, "We are rich."

She was taken back by the statement, and she asked me why I thought that was true. I told her that, "We have everything we need and most things we want. People who have a lot more money than we do will never be rich, because they will always want much more than they can have."

This is the critical difference between those who will enjoy EQ and those who will not. Some people can never enjoy the game that is there to be played because they covet the "uber gear and epic 2.0s." Well, you know what? When they get that uber gear and epic 2.0, they find out that there is even more uber gear and an epic 2.5. Probably, by the time they have that, there will be even more uber gear and an epic 3.0. The point is, that there is always better gear and always someone who has better than you. In fact, for those of us that actually play the game, that is what makes the game great. No matter what you have, there is always more to go and do and get.

If you take up the attitude that you have to have the best...to win the game, then there is a truly limited crowd you have to be in to win. There are only 14 people (one of each class) that have the best that there is.

The people that enjoy the game are the people that work towards realistic goals in the game, achieve those goals, and enjoy doing that. It really doesn't matter if those goals are uber loot or getting your first rusty dagger or just beating up a rat. It is about overcoming some major event and succeeding where you have failed before.

Yes, I'm in what you would call an uber guild. I am currently in a position to get uber gear and an epic 2.0. Yet none of that will be as great an accomplishment to me as when my group of friends and I were not in an uber guild and beat 68.2, 68.3, and even 70.5, and there's that one fight we won in Cazic Thule that lasted over 30 minutes. Adds streamed in, and we pulled out everything we had to survive it. We didn't win any uber loot, but we had a blast, and when we finally won, we felt we had done something special.

I submit that you quit the game because you are not the kind of person who could find happiness playing the game. You could never find the richness that is the game because you were goggle eyed over something that was outside your grasp. I know people that will likely never have an epic 2.0 and will never have uber gear that get more from this game every single day than you ever did, because they actually play the game. They win at EQ where you were doomed to lose. They are rich where you were and were doomed be poor.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Blakyce on July 19, 2006 01:38 PM

Extremely well said Keisa.

I have been playing around in The Devastation trying to do a little quest and trying to learn how to bow solo in the zone. With all of the travelling packs of mobs and mob pops and random snaring mobs I have killed only slightly more of them than they have of me. No gear, no xp and a heck of a lot of fun.

Comment Posted by: Aarkan on July 19, 2006 02:11 PM

Honestly, what everquest needs is a full overhaul of the death system and new animations. They don't even need to change the SoL models if they don't want to just fix the shitty animations and make it neat.

Death though, always respawn with all gear and with spells memorized already. Tone down the huge exp cuts between 40 and 51 and keep the res system the same, leave a blank corpse that can be ressed for exp and to bring you back to where you died. What would also be nice if they would introduce a system similar to WoW/EQ2 where you can stay on your body and wait for a res, to save time on zoning if you KNOW you're going to be resed anyway. If they're introducing an in combat/out of combat system then they can definatly do something like that.

Comment Posted by: defunct on July 19, 2006 02:34 PM

Yeah, come on casuals. Quit whining if you don't have your rune drops. All you gotta do is spend the next year or so /lfg or making pick-up groups that either last an hour or wipe on the first pull and disband. The timesinks are insane in EQ, but casual players are not, and so move on when they see how bad it will be for them.

Comment Posted by: Hemdell on July 19, 2006 05:36 PM

"I submit that you quit the game because you are not the kind of person who could find happiness playing the game."

LOL what I've been saying!

Let's clear some things up.

I never said I was stuck at anytime. I was refering to Keisa's analogy playing Heroes of Might and Magic III. I am far from STUCK.

I am saying that even from a roleplaying standpoint, not having your spells is not how it is suppose to work. I am not asking for handouts and my comments were a bit tounge-in-cheek. It goes to show you that there is a mentality by SOME in this game. I call it the military mentality. It being " I did it a certain way so everyone that comes after me is to do it the same way." Just because you did things a certain way doesnt make it the right way or the only way.

So continue to look down your noses at the casual players. You will find that when the casuals go so will EQ.

Comment Posted by: Loral on July 19, 2006 06:10 PM

My fiance just left our family guild to join a raiding guild. Within about 6 weeks she has earned more power for her level 70 character than she has in two years before it. The only thing that changed was her guild tag.

When she left her family guild, all new doors opened up to her. She got flagged for Theater of Blood in a week. She got flagged for Anguish in three weeks. She gained six pieces of primary armor with a net gain of about 150 hitpoints and mana per piece. She gained countless augments (really, she doesn't know how many she earned).

Did she put in more effort? Not really. She worked pretty hard before and she got hardly anything for it. She used to raid about as often as she does now but it was taking a multi-guild organization through POP instead of spearheading through to Anguish.

High-end gear has nothing to do with time or energy or skill. The gear one has is completely dependent on your guild tag. That's what bothers me.

Am I jealous of my fiance? Sure but not legitimately. She just plays the game as it is designed. I just have a different vision for it. I want to see a game where as much attention is paid to single-group progression as is paid to high-end raiding. I want smooth lines of equipment progression for level 70 single-group hunters. I want to be able to improve my gear without raiding. I want a game that doesn't force me out of my existing network of friends in order to enjoy the game.

Two weeks ago I earned my flag to Theater of Blood. I didn't do it by banding together with other non-flagged people, I just hung out with my fiance and her new friends and I got flagged because of who I knew, not the skills I have.

Comment Posted by: Skuz on July 19, 2006 06:15 PM

"Comment Posted by: Hemdell on July 17, 2006 09:19 PM

I am a casual and im getting to the point where if i dont raid i dont get upgrades. That is wrong and most people know it. I cant raid due to not knowing when im going to be on, so according to some people it's my fault. The same people who want new blood in the game are some of the same people who are trying to push people out."

Let's just look at what you are saying here, you are saying you have almost aquired all the upgrades in the game that are available to non-raiders.............

So are you saying you want more non-raid content made available to you with more non raided loot in it?

Or are you saying you want raid-level loot without raiding?

I think you should be pleased you have done so well, with the next expansion there WILL be more non-raided upgrades made available to you, SoE puts in content recently that caters to non raiders, for sure it is less powerful than raid gear is, but as a non raider you don't need raid-level gear to beat the stuff you do. Raid gear is what raiders need to beat raid level encounters.

Comment Posted by: Corwyhn on July 19, 2006 09:19 PM

If the goal is to bring in more new players I think the idea that that will put out the digital download only first makes sense. Closer to Christmas they can offer SS + all the other expansions at or close to the price we buy SS for or at the very least make it as sweet a deal as possible for retailers. If they are smart enough to do this good for them. I would be happy to see the new players. Make whatever profit they can from us doing the digital only sales then sell a boxed complete eq version at cost or less to get new players.

SOE wins if they get new players for EQ or any of their other games. People subscribing to eq are that much closer to getting a station pass.

Comment Posted by: Chark on July 20, 2006 01:39 AM

I am a 16k UnBuffed Warrior and I am just not happy anymore. I have raided from Vox to OMM. The guild I am in in just falling apart. We never got past the Queen and thats when things started to fall apart.

I have seen certain Roadblocks kill the game besides all the other problems. Getting the Vex Thal key, PoJ trials, Getting the BoT key, Tipt and Vexed, Upua, and now the Queen.

The game is supose to be fun.

Anyone looking for a Max AA warrior, That knows how to raid. Send me a Email.
.

Comment Posted by: Vamirez on July 20, 2006 03:21 AM

Some thoughts about the right to have all spells of a given level:

It does not exist, especially from a roleplaying perspective: If Miragul invents a new level 70 spell, why should he make it easily available to necromancers all over Norrath? If you want it, go and get it from his spellbook or one of his most powerful servants. Normally, you wouldn't even know it exists. This would basically apply to any spellcaster who creates new spells. Spells are not inherent abilities like track or something. New wizard spells just don't pop up in the heads of all wizards or appear on scrolls in all libraries. They are really more like rare items.

Now, from a gaming perspective: You cannot demand that new spells should be easy to get. This doesn't have anything to do with your playstyle. To have all your level 70 spells in EQ is an achievement (in pen and paper rpgs you can usually never hope to know all spells!). It takes time, it takes luck. If it frustrates you to work on getting them, take a break and do something else. Eventually, you will get one or more of them and you will be very happy. Its just the same as with items for non-spellcasters. And you can still play if you do not have them all. You are not useless. Yes, there is content that will be difficult for you without them, but you are not forced to do it until you are ready for it.

Another example: DoDH introduced a new level 68 spell. Many people demanded it should be easy to get for a group of level 68 people. That's the wrong way of thinking in this case, though, as the missions leading to that spell are not designed for level 68 chars with non-raid gear and little AA. Its rather a new 68 spell for chars who are advanced far enough to beat those missions (I finally beat Drillien at time-equivalent gear and a few hundred AA - I'm no uber char - and it was pure fun; you can very probably do it with less). So if you do beat them, be happy about your new spell (or disc). As long as you cannot beat them yet, don't complain that you deserve to have that spell in your book, because you don't. And that has nothing to do with being elitist or something like that, by the way. Think about it :-)

Comment Posted by: concerned1 on July 20, 2006 03:41 AM

keisa: no you still dont get it. did i want the best gear and weapons in eq? yes i did. who dont? BUT i never ,ever want my world.....my very life to revolve around a cartoon fantasy video game. its not gonna happen. eq will not last forever.one day it will be closed. all those hours you spent in getting uber will be gone.you cant get that back. then what will you do? walk around on the street and tell random people that you used to have a level 80 monk on everquest named superbuttkicka that had 15k hit points unbuffed?

Comment Posted by: Richard Hinson on July 20, 2006 08:56 AM

QFT: Loral said "High-end gear has nothing to do with time or energy or skill. The gear one has is completely dependent on your guild tag. That's what bothers me."

That's spot on the view point of every single person I know raider or not who has left the game and is the single most common reason I'm told by them for why they left the game. It's also appartly the thing that people in those guilds and the developers (Absor for example based on all too many of his posts), just don't get.

That same point can be said for the easy of gaining AA's of doing DoN mission lines, or of getting a full spell book for casters.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on July 20, 2006 10:03 AM

First, to Concerned1:

Good for you. You didn't want to play the game all the time. I think that is great. Your play time does not govern your ability to enjoy the game. What does govern your ability to enjoy the game is your expectation to If you expect to put in little time and have top end gear, you will be frustrated. If you expect to go out, do the things you can, get the items that are within your capabilities, then you'll enjoy the game a lot more.

Now, on to everyone:

Here's a surprise for you. I don't have all my level 70 spells for one reason... because I am a raider. My wolf mask took three extra months to get... because I am a raider. I haven't completed and have not farmed the MPG trials... because I am a raider. I haven't farmed the Eye of Ice... becaues I am a raider. These are personal goals I have, single group goals. This may seem counter intuitive to you, but it is part of the price I have paid to be in a raiding guild.

Those are all things I would like to do, but I just don't have time to do them. I am not saying that I have suffered because I was a raider. I am saying that I have grown in a different way. There are paths for improving my character I would have chosen if I wasn't a raider.

I find it ironic that so many people that complain about not having their 69-70 spells use the excuse that it is so much easier for raiders, but it is the very reason I have not had the time to spend getting my spells. I have a group of friends who hunt together a lot. We (as non-raiders) did almost all of the DOD missions. When we all joined the raiding guild, I was three (out of 23) missions from completing my mask. It took three months to find the time to finish it.

On the flip side, I have Shyra's claws and a Bazu stone in my tunic. I have a lot of new shiny gear that is definitely as nice as the items I didn't get. I'm flagged for TOB, Yxxta, and Anguish, and I see rot loot that is a direct improvement for my gear.

The point to this post isn't that raiding is good or bad. It is a different progression path than grouping. I acquired as much gear grouping as I did raiding, it was just different gear. Furthermore, I'm happy so long as I have a progression path before me. If I quit raiding today, I would have things I could look forward to doing in the game to improve my character (70 spells, DOD loot, MPG trials, and Eye of Ice, to name a few). I hear there is a little dude in Dreadlands that is holding my +shielding ring. Some day, I hope to visit him.

There are progression paths open to group play. You can do it if you are focussed.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Skuz on July 20, 2006 01:06 PM

I think Keisa & I see things similarly, & much of the responses i was going to post to comments made in this thread (somewhat of a derail I'll admit, since some of us are getting into the raiders versus casuals argument) she spoke of in better terms than i was going to use.

What I think is the major problem with the PLAYERS that are complaining or quitting the game, is that they see some uber high end piece of gear & naturally they drool & want it, it's just like in real life, there you are, driving along in your clapped out 25 year old car that you struggle to afford to keep roadworthy, and some git drives by in a car you always dreamed of owning.

What do you feel? E N V Y.

That basic human emotion does not evaporate when you step through the portal of your monitor into the virtual world of Norrath, it follows you in, along with all the rest of your emotions.

But how about this, how about if you were happy with your car the way it was because it was a car you worked hard to buy from your wages from your first ever job outta school? What if you knew the guy in the flash car, & knew he barely saw his wife & kids because he worked so many hours to pay for the flash car?

Now I'll agree with Loral that Raid gear depends on your guild tag, but it also depends on whether you CAN raid, whether you can regularly attend, regularly play at your best, & regularly do as someone else (your Raidleader) asks you to.

So where does that leave the argument?

It leaves casuals needing to make choices & shock horror, maybe shift their perceptions.

If you are not a raider there is a huge amount of content, there is loot & spells to be had, Yes raid-geared players will find the bulk of groupable content easier by virtue of their gear.......when they get time to group that is.

Group game eq is almost a different game to raid game eq, the gear differs, the playstyle differs, the requirements differ, the expectations differ.

A casual has a lot of flexibilty in terms of their online time, a raider does not.

To want the very best Raided gear in Everquest, you need to be a raider, plain & simple, to want that gear whilst retaining the flexibilty a casual has, is anathema, it's like wanting that brand new porsche but only having a salary that can afford a nissan micra because you only want a part time job & work flexible hours to suit you & only speaks to the kind of person you are...

Comment Posted by: Teremar on July 20, 2006 01:16 PM

I think people are overlooking the positive effects EQ's declining subscription numbers will have on the culture of the game.

As it becomes more and more clear that every person who leaves the game means that much less SOE money invested in developing it, every EQ player will have a clear incentive to keep every other EQ player happy. If someone expresses frustration with any aspect of the game, other players will respond respectfully in a sincere attempt to help solve the problem and ease their frustration so they don't quit. Whether someone is a "raider" or a "casual" will be far less important than the fact that they are an "EQ player." Harmony will become the rule as players realize they're all in it together. That improved culture will then become a major draw, reversing the population decline...

...okay, I don't believe that for a minute either. But it's too bad it isn't true. I'm sure the last subscriber will insist the game is just great as-is and anyone who disagrees needs to change something about themselves or how they play.

(Not that EQ will get down to their last subscriber for years to come.)

Comment Posted by: Juror on July 20, 2006 02:43 PM

As Loral's fiance, I usually just lurk and make comments privately. But since I am being talked about directly, I feel like I should reply.

Leaving family guild for raiding guild was a tough decision for me. I love new guild but the change was stressful. I went from being the leader of one of the oldest guilds on server to being a recruit who had to be gimped into certain zones just to get to the raid. I died a lot at first because I didn�t have the hps and resists to survive AEs (and because I made mistakes like standing in wrong place, judging range incorrectly, or reacting too slowly.)

I doubt that I would still be playing EQ if I hadn�t changed though. Constantly LFG, doing the same missions over and over again, and spending most of my time helping others progress while I stayed the same was wearing me out. While I miss hanging out with old friends, making new friends, going different places, slaying challenging mobs and taking their stuff is fun.

Loral is off on his timing a bit. It took three and a half weeks (2 groups a week) for me to get flagged for ToB. It took six weeks for me to get all the MPG trials done and I still need two more sigs for access to Anquish. I won my first armor piece (Qvic gauntlets) two weeks after I joined on a pickup raid. Most of the upgrades came from open raids or guild groups. I raided with guild 3+ times a week for five weeks before I had enough points to buy any phat lewt (arms from Shyra). I bought one other item since then and that was largely a result of getting first kill bonuses. People have been quite generous in helping me with augs (nine� I think� but I already had bunch of crystals saved) and spells but with one exception, I got them outside scheduled raids. I have yet to win a level 70 rune and it�s not for lack of trying.

While it�s true that I have advanced more in the last two months than in the past two years, it was not without some effort. I am online about the same amount of time (I am not counting the nights when raids run over and I get less than six hours of sleep) but I am actually doing a lot more. Before I joined raiding guild, it was not unusual for me to spend hour buffing, hour sitting around talking to folks, and hour trying to organize something then waiting for people to show up. Now I have a list of goals (some guild, some personal) that I work on when not raiding. Sure it�s easier to find groups but that�s because there are more active players in raiding guild, they prefer to group with guildies, and we are all pushing to mark things off our lists. There is a higher level of commitment and shared sense of purpose.

I disagree that skill wasn�t required. It�s just a different kind of skill. Like in a group, people rely on you to be able to play your class and do good job no matter what happens. On a raid, I am expected to know where to go, to get there on my own, to be ready to move on time, to follow instructions promptly, and to work with other shamans to figure out who is casting what spells for each encounter. How well each individual does job and how well we adapt and make adjustments if we encounter problem can make difference between success and failure. Some things I already knew from years of leading Planes raids. The rest I learned by observing others and spending hours offline looking at maps, studying strats, and reading information posted on boards. I was at least an expansion or two behind everyone else and am just beginning to catch up.

Should everyone level 70 have to do what I did? No, there should be other paths available. Folks should be able to enjoy the game from level 1 to level 70/75 no matter how they like to play. Just as I hope raiders don�t belittle non-raiders, I ask non-raiders to respect the choice that raiders make. That choice isn�t as easy as you think and the rewards don�t come without sacrifices.

Comment Posted by: Clok on July 20, 2006 03:03 PM

I'm wondering, how long do you people think EQ will last? Forever? If you enjoy playing EQ, then play, if you dont, then dont. I'm very suprised its lasted as long as it did. Software (entertainment for that matter) goes in cycles. Something comes along that makes you go "NEAT, I want to play that" and you do, seldom for 7+ years, even with addons. Look at D&D, it kick started the Pen and Paper fantasy craze, (there where others before it, but it was KING), even it needed a revamp to AD&D before it got huge. it was KING for awhile, but nowdays, there are hundreds, and its crown has lost almost all its luster. They keep revising, and adding addons, but it will never see its former glory. Then Think Wolf3D, Doom, Quake, it was KING of the online deathmatch, it could do no worng. Then the other guys came along, and started chipping away, and sombody (Counterstrike) came along and id it better, soon ther ewas a NEW KING. Thats the way of life. I know there is alot of time invested (it can be said obout all the others) but its not real, its on a server someplace. The friends and freindships are real, they are what matters. I bet a few of you could actually make new ones (and maybe rekindle some old lost ones) if you moved on, tried something else.

EQ is in the twlight years, there is very little doubt (they can prove me wrong anytime, it was my first love, but its faded). There will not be any foutain of youth, no expasnsion, no box in a store window will change that.

The people who still play will play those that dont, wont. thre will be a trickle of new, and unfortantly there will be a trickle of old leaving. The glory days are over.

Clok

Comment Posted by: Loral on July 20, 2006 04:01 PM

I agree with everything Juror says (I better!). I don't feel the game should have to be that way. She shouldn't have to join a new guild in order to have something to do at night. I am in the same state right now. I log in and I hang around. Sometimes I try to put groups together, sometimes I'm just LFG.

Maybe the problem is systemic with leveling systems - any game where players hit the max level is likely to focus on raiding. We see it in both Everquest and Warcraft. Level 75 will help, perhaps, but what is really needed is a smooth set of content that lends itself to pickup groups. Either that or the high-end game is simply dependent upon high-end guilds. I don't think it has to be that way but the evidence is against me.

Comment Posted by: Horzek on July 20, 2006 04:14 PM

About a year ago I was feeling much like Hemdall here and I was not too happy about having been level 70 for some time and still not able to get my hands on the spells I felt I needed to really play my class, ( Halfing Cleric ). Loral suggested that I take up a raiding guild and after thinking over his advice and deciding that a cleric with 6k of mana was not really able to heal all that well I applied for a slot in one of the higher raiding guilds on my server.

It has been a year now and I have worked my butt off almost and it has proven productive. I have come very close to doubling my mana pool and my hit points and I was there with my guild as we reformed, as we marched across Qvic, Tacvi, the MPG trials, the DoN dragons, Anguish and now as we are knocking on the door to Demi Plane.

What did I gain with all this? I gained a lot of very nice gear. I dont believe that I currently wear even one single piece of my former equipment. I gained the respect of my guild mates as I met and exceeded their expectations and even better I gained a lot of new friends who were willing to work as hard for something as I was. I also gained some sense of accomplishment as I was there for nearly all of those major kills and wins.

This has all made for a productive year for me and one in which my EQ gaming has changed dramatically. In spite of all our success as a raiding guild though we seem to have one problem that will not go away. We keep bleeding away players. Many of them finally just burn out and we may or may not even hear from them again as to why they are suddenly not around much.

I keep hearing about why the game is dieing on the vine and a lot of the complaints come from the casual side but my experience is that a lot of the player loss is from the folks on the uber side who simply fade out.

To my thinking if there is something that this game needs it is a good pathway those casual player types who might like to see the other side of the game so that they could get geared up sufficiently to go out and play with the big dogs.

It seems to me that the progression paths are the greatest hindrance of all. If I were to start this game as a new player and learned what it would take for me to be able to actually go on an Anguish raid for example and there win a piece of loot I dont think I would seriously consider paying the price required.

I have seen some progress over the past two expansions in that those in the casual guilds who want to do DoN, DoDH and even PoR missions and can win them can get some fairly nice gear and it will very adequately serve them in their casual battles. Some of the more serious folks can actually get enough gear going to be considered as applicants in the lower end raiding guilds. The other area that makes it tough for the casuals is those infernal AA points. Many of the raiding guilds wont even talk to you about applying if you dont have at least 250 to 300 aa.

I actually liked the double experience weekends where we could spend a bit of time and pile up a few aa points here and there. Some of the aa skills after all take rediculous numbers of points to gain the skills. I would like to see things like this even more often. The double experience veteran reward for example is very nice and I use it when ever I can.

The answer is not really to attract new players who are only impressed by graphics and bells and whistles, the answer lies much more along the lines of what will it take to be able to actually play the game as it was intended to be played.

Comment Posted by: Lumilla on July 20, 2006 04:36 PM

Oh, we get all that, Concerned1. Now, I'll tell you what you don't get. I'll start with a story.

When I was a young lad, I had a conversation with my mother. I told her, "We are rich."

Keisa

----

Wow! What a great post! You hit the nail on the head with that one!

I am a casual EQ player with 2 accounts, 9 toons, 4 over LVL 68, - I do not raid, and I play roughly 10hrs per week - and I LOVE EQ!

My Cleric (LVL 70 with 200+ days played - my first toon) just got his EPIC 1.0

My LVL 65 BST has her EPIC 1.0 as well. But none of my others toons have any EPICs...

My LVL 70 Necro (Lumilla) as a non-raider has 8K mana - not great, but not bad, spent almost 3 months in RSS to get most of her 69 and 70 spells, did the ALT quest for her cool LICH spell (red skellies rock).

My point is this... there is no way no how I could compete with the UBAR raiders - and that's OK... I can find groups and content to challenge me, and I add an AA here, a new piece of gear there, and I love ALTs ...
/giggle

Comment Posted by: Tuppet on July 20, 2006 04:57 PM

One of EQ's main problem is playability. It's PAINFULLY slow. Perhaps we didn't notice how slow it was because 'back in the day' there weren't a lot of other options? As time goes on, new MMORPG's come out and try to put their own twist on things. Today, EQ is looking like a turtle in a horse race.

Downtime in EQ is excessively long, mana/hp/endurance regen is handcuffed by its original(?) implementation. The devs are indeed working on this and THANKFULLY a new system will be implemented when the expansion, TSS, is launched.

In EQ, after a certain level there's a perception that you NEED to have tank/cleric/slower, in your group. You don't need to have these three but that setup is optimal - and that's what people want: bang for the buck; play time is limited, make the most out of it.

"Making the most of your play time" is composed of many things:
1. death penalty. If it's too severe, dying is avoided at all costs. People won't 'try' to group with strangers if the risk is too high, i.e. every group needs tank/cleric/slower.

(side note, where are the rezzes that give partial hp/mana/end??)

2. how fast can you get back into the groove after death? If this is too slow, again people won't take the risk.
- out of combat hp/mana/regen needs to be quick.
- getting back to where you left off should be generally easy (WITHIN REASON!).

This post evolved as I was typing it so apologies if it doesn't flow. Basically, there needs to be sufficient rewards, up-time, and non-excessive penalties to encourage groups.

(I think the rewards have come a long way in EQ. Now the attention is being turned to down-time.)

Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on July 20, 2006 05:37 PM

Small but extremely hard raids would help I guess. Don�t know because I�m not there, I left for City of Heroes. Tried WoW but same thing ends happening there, worse since its almost impossible to group from 1 to 40 due to ease of soloing, people rather solo steadily than risk bad PUGs, leading to a very lonely experience.

In CoH soloing is an option, but teaming is SO much more rewarding and exiting. I still have to see what they add in the next big update in a few months, supposedly they will add their own "advancement for max level folk" there or in the next update, and we will see if CoH turns to make something interesting that others may be able to adopt, or they just adopt the same grindy system of EQ and WoW.

Comment Posted by: Wiggles on July 20, 2006 07:56 PM

Well said, Juror. Loral's comments were a touch snarky and it looks like you'll need to yank that chain a bit more.

Fact is, there is a ton of stuff for non-raiders to do. However, they rarely do any of it for the same reasons they don't raid. Lack of motivation and/or lack of organization. The rewards aren't the same and up until the last couple expansions, I would argue that was causing too big a divide and making it very hard to play the game. That really has changed. I see non-raiders with gear that comes pretty close to all but the top tier players. That's plenty to get by but it takes time to obtain, perhaps even more than it takes in a raid guild.

Juror's fasttrack upgrades aren't typical though. What happended there was someone skipping ahead. The other people in the guild that played through all the expansions obtained their items very slowly and through well thought out choices. I averaged maybe 1 item every 45-60 days and I raided 6-7 days a week for 3 years (NToV to Anguish). It's not some gravy train with free loots just for having a pulse.

Comment Posted by: Loral on July 20, 2006 08:20 PM

"Juror's fasttrack upgrades aren't typical though."

It happens every time a new player joins an existing raiding guild. It is part of the institution of raiding. It happens all the time.

This isn't about casuals getting access to raiding gear - this is about single-group progression getting as much attention as high-end raids. There is a big equipment gap between DON and Arcstone missions and DODH 69 / 70 spell missions, MPG Trials, and the Theater of Blood quests. That gap needs to be filled.

The armor drops in Arcstone are a close one but they are too random, too low in power, and in too focused an area to fix the problem.

More importantly, there needs to be more focus on building group and small-raid events for pickup groups instead of simple progression based on guild tags.

Ones guild tag alone determines ones ability to have fun in this game.

Comment Posted by: Tuppet on July 20, 2006 09:34 PM

"Ones guild tag alone determines ones ability to have fun in this game."

exactly. there is a virtual "wall". you can only progress so much without raid gear.

camps need to be done away with. people camping/farming one spot in a zone shouldn't be the norm. lots of people need upgrades and need those upgrades to be accessible in many places.

if the new loot for hot zones is going well, why not apply that kind of loot distribution for normal zones? (meaning, good loot off a random mob)

how many piece of gear do the devs think a person (and or group) should get in a play session? say 1 hour? 2 hours?

Comment Posted by: Xaas on July 20, 2006 09:34 PM

You know what's funny, and I never really noticed it the first time I played EQ, as I was so far behind the curve I guess. But really that's exaclty what's wrong with WoW, it just happens much faster.

Can't say I really knew that was the problem at high end EQ also. :) Good to know though, and might make it easier to really move on to vanguard or back to WoW after Burning Crusade. They are claiming in a recent blue post to have some idea on how to fix it.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on July 20, 2006 09:38 PM

I'd be curious what proportion of Juror's guild "played through all the expansions" and what proportion "skipp[ed] ahead" at some point. I'm going to guess the former are relatively rare, and the latter is the norm.

Comment Posted by: Wiggles on July 20, 2006 09:57 PM

Loral, what I meant was, it took over a 100 people years of work get Juror (or the few people who join) the ability to gear up. It's not just a guild tag. Those are real people putting in real effort over many years to reach that point and I was taken aback by your callous attitude "High-end gear has nothing to do with time or energy or skill. The gear one has is completely dependent on your guild tag. That's what bothers me." Very petty. It's not the guild tag, it's the people, their drive, dedication and skill. If you think you just show up with a guild tag and loot falls into your lap, think again. In Juror's case those were upgrades to her but no doubt rot status at their level and probably not fully sufficent in their raids. Once that settles, there will be a lot of effort put in to gain anything else.

As for the gap, I think they're more than close enough. Unless you are actually trying to beat top raids in the latest expansions, you don't need that gear. DoN/MPG Trials/Missions/Tradeskills and augs make very formibable choices. It's pure envy. Get over it.

"Ones guild tag alone determines ones ability to have fun in this game."

Hardly. And if this was the case, who is blame? Why not the guilds that never progress? Stop expecting to get 300hp gear without first getting 125hp. And with the options I listed above, it's more than possible get a huge head start.

My guild progressed on its own through Velious, Luclin, PoP, GoD, OoW, and onward typically at least 1 expansion behind. There are 1000s of players better equipped then us. We don't sit around and moan and cry. We continue on our progression path and have a lot of fun playing, beating content for our first time and helping each other.

Comment Posted by: sunshadow on July 21, 2006 02:26 AM

Wiggles what you are missing, and what Loral is saying is. For a person today with casual gear to leap ahead, all they have to do is join a highend guild. That highend guild may have demands that require 4 to 5 hours 6 days a week but really a lost of casual play that amount as well. So the difference between 2 character playing the same amount of time is "the guild tag".

In the end the old Moto of "it's not what you know, but who you know" that counts. Yes some guild members have played from day one and done all the progression but really how many of the players you raid with have been guilded of more than a year?

Now me, I don't give a flying f@#$ about gear, I just want people to group with. I hope the new expansion has huge zones and the only instances are for high end raids. I don't want any instanced MM's or spell missions or any of that other CR.. stuff that seperates people in their own little worlds. The zones should be well planed with multiple safe spots for camp setup. However the mobs should be roamers so there is not real mob camping. In otherwords if my group is good enough to hold an unsafe spot so be it.

Comment Posted by: Armarant on July 21, 2006 08:08 AM

Sunshadow wrote:In the end the old Moto of "it's not what you know, but who you know" that counts.

that motto can be applied to grouping just as easily as it can be applied to raiding, if you know a high end grouper it then becomes easier to gear yourself up to become a high end grouper, just like becoming a high end raider makes it easier for you to gear upto the point where you can become a high end raider.

EQ is all about knowing the right people, thats what grouping is in a nutshell, the only way to get rid of that aspect is to develop a solo path.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on July 21, 2006 09:46 AM

"Ones guild tag alone determines ones ability to have fun in this game."

I think this is an unfortunate statement, and many believe it to be true. The most fun I had in the game was not in a high en raiding guild, but in a family guild. We had core group that ran DOD missions, MPG trials, and other events on a nightly basis. Each night, we challenged ourselves to do the things we could not do before. We ran some missions 4-5 times before winning, and we all had a blast.

The key point to know is that we did not have to have raid gear to have fun. The key to having fun was having a good group of people you could rely on to group and meet challenges on a regular basis. That's it. We played the game. Nothing more. The loot we got were incentive, but it wasn't what made us happy.

However, if the only thing that will make you happy is the loot, then raiding is the only thing that can make you happy. I just hope that when you get there, you'll find out that it is everything you hoped.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Teremar on July 21, 2006 11:32 AM

Quoting Loral for the benefit of everyone who apparently missed it the first time:

"This isn't about casuals getting access to raiding gear - this is about single-group progression getting as much attention as high-end raids."

I hope Loral will expand on what he means by that. But it's not "I can't get 300hp gear like those uber cool raiders I envy so much!" Please. Any raider who thinks non-raiders sit around envying their gear needs to get over themselves.

Comment Posted by: Skuz on July 21, 2006 11:45 AM

Comment Posted by: Tuppet on July 20, 2006 09:34 PM

"Ones guild tag alone determines ones ability to have fun in this game."

exactly. there is a virtual "wall". you can only progress so much without raid gear."

That "Virtual Wall" exists for raiders to, once they have all the raid items from an expansion their class can use, they cannot progress until........the next expansion.

That "Virtual Wall" exits for everyone at every level, so what excatly are you driving at?

Comment Posted by: concerned1 on July 21, 2006 12:23 PM

to those saying its not about the gear: who are you trying to kid? eq has become all about the gear! you think those uber raiders are raiding becuase they all like each other and are doing it for the memories? thats utter crap. its for the power of the "phat lewt". and everybody wants it. if raids rewarded with the same gear everybody has access to , how many of those people do you think would be raiding just becuase they think its fun? 20 anguished geared toons can take on stuff that 60 potime geared people couldnt hope to beat. you ever seen uber raiders do those dod spell missions? they chew those up and spit them out . many casual types cant even dream to beat those missions.

Comment Posted by: Tuppet on July 21, 2006 12:48 PM

"That "Virtual Wall" exists for raiders to, once they have all the raid items from an expansion their class can use, they cannot progress until........the next expansion.

That "Virtual Wall" exits for everyone at every level, so what excatly are you driving at?"

that at a certain point in the game, you need to gear up. where are those upgrades? raids. a little after you reach level 70, where are you going to get the upgrades with the fancy focus effects?

My point was that if you are at max level, 70, your baz/time-ish gear isn't going to get you very far. level 70 was three expansions ago and now mobs/missions have been mud-flated for those people that have been saturated with experience/gear from those expansions. It's somewhat daunting to catch-up because people tend to flock to the zones where you are under-geared/AA'd.

I agree that you have to work for it - you shouldn't just get free AA/gear. With that said, is it acceptable that people be asked to raid Uqua/ikky 4 (or even the backflag quests for those flags) for gear that is 4 expansions old? that's a big commitment for someone who just wants to play casually, yet competitively. should there be a series of smaller tasks that achieve this same goal?

if you wanted to spend 1-2 hours a night on EQ at level 70, how far would you get? not very far.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on July 21, 2006 01:25 PM

Sure, it's about gear. Just not about raid gear.

Everyone wants to progress. Non-raiders with 150 hp/slot working towards 180 hp/slot while raiders with 300 hp/slot work towards 330 hp/slot is fine, as long as they both have a way to do it. I'm not sure why Loral thinks this is breaking down (I could give you my reasons, but they're out of date) but it's not because he can't just jump from 150 to 300.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on July 21, 2006 02:01 PM

Concerned1,

I have another story for you. I read this in the cover of a chess book. A player related a story to the chess pro, who wrote the book. He was complaining about a game of chess he had. In the game he had managed to promote a pawn and had two queens. He also killed the opponent's queen. During the game, the opponent slipped a rook to the back rank and checkmated him. He was complaining that it was not fair that he lost a game when he had a two queen advantage.

The chess pro responded by saying, "You forgot the objective of the game, and your opponent did not. That is why you lost."

I submit to you that the objective of EQ is *not* to get gear (raid gear or otherwise). Just like queens in chess, gear only enables us to meet the objectives of the game. Like the opponent in the chess game above, who won the game without queens, you can win at EQ without having the best gear in the game.

For me, gear is not the primary goal of the game. Beating events and having fun are the objectives. Gear provides tools that can be used to defeat the event. Sure, the better the tools, the more likely I am to defeat the event, but tools alone are not the objective.

If I cannot defeat the event with the "tools" I have, I don't gripe and complain about how others have better gear than I do can defeat it. Instead, I go other places and improve my gear until I am ready to go back for a rematch. When I do finally beat that event, I take pride in the fact that I finally did something I couldn't do before. That is a win.

So, when you say, "it's about gear," I have to respond, "It is, and it isn't."

Keisa

Comment Posted by: concerned1 on July 21, 2006 03:08 PM

keisa: i dont have the slightest clue why you wrote all that bs up there. if you were not getting uber gear you would not be uber raiding.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on July 21, 2006 03:24 PM

I suspect you would have considered my gear as uber before I joined a raiding guild, you know, when I was a "casual player."

Keisa

Comment Posted by: Aarkan on July 21, 2006 03:37 PM

Being a non-raider, non-uberguild player does NOT mean you are a casual player. There are plenty of people who do not do uber raids and do single group type stuff that are FAR from casual players. The casual player is the player that goes around and works on thier quests from Kunark because getting Greenmist or Swiftwind is cool. A casual player is the type of player who tries to get a bunch of 50+ guys together on a message board for a fear raid in a month. The casual player is the one who, when reading about guys who can get an AA in 15 minutes or less wonders how it's possible to get one in less than 45min to an hour. Even moreso the casual player is one of the thousands that doesn't read or even knows that there are message boards out there about EverQuest. You need to remember that and that the big reason there is a rift between EQ1 and all the newer generation games is because in WoW or CoH or EQ2 you can solo COMFORTABLY as any class from level 1 to level 50, 60 or 70 where it applies. Soloing is the baseline and grouping is the benefit where raiding is a huge benefit, unlike in EQLive where grouping is the baseline and soloing is good or great as some classes but negligable as most and raiding it a benefit for gaining gear and progressing through high end content though most of the stuff is done in an old fashioned Tank, Slower, Healer group.

Now if I were playing still, which I would like to if my PC weren't dead. I'd be a casual player, 57 after 2 some odd active years on my main with what was good gear for my level back before GoD came out trying to get groups for Monster Missions or maybe a PoP zone to level up or get my first AA's.

Comment Posted by: Juror on July 21, 2006 04:42 PM

Actually most of the people in my new guild played through the expansions. It's one of the things that I really respect about them.

Guild was formed in 2003 as a family guild. They began to raid more seriously when they got to PoP. At first they did a lot with multi-guild raiding organization that I helped found but as they grew and did well, they went off on their own more and more. They picked up folks from some of the smaller guilds in the organization that were struggling. They broke into Time then started farming it. They absorbed an entire guild from RZ and recruited a little from outside organization. At this point, they moved into Gates and Omens and progressed past where the rest of organization was. That is when I came along... right before first Tunat, Dragons, and Shyra kills.

Most of the upgrades that I got were from Qvic and ToB. Gear would have gone to alt, another new member (five - two of them returning members - since I came but only two can use the drops), or rotted. I had a mix of LDoN, PoP, DoN, Depths, and PoR single group items + epic 1.5 when I joined. While upgrades are better for me (usually 50 hps/mana), they aren't as good as drops in Tacvi and MPG where guild has been raiding.

I didn't leave for gear but in a way, I left because of gear. There weren't enough people my level in old guild to group on regular basis. I don't mind forming PUG but lately it seemed to take forever. I have a large network of friends but most of them are raiders and either don't have time to group or don't group much outside guild. Convincing people in PUG to do harder stuff was difficult. If you did, you didn't usually succeed. Sometimes it was because someone did something dumb, left group before we were done, or went LD at bad time but usually we just weren't strong or lucky enough. I ran pickup raids but getting enough folks anything beyond Time was near impossible.

I got tired of banging my head against wall. While I wasn't unhappy, I wasn't enjoying the game as much as I once did. I didn't want to start another character. I liked raiding and raiding would give me access to the most content so I switched. One of the biggest changes that I have noticed is that changing guild tags got me more groups and grouping is more fun. Ironic huh... join a raiding guild to group. I wish I had done it sooner.

Comment Posted by: Loral on July 21, 2006 06:32 PM

"Quoting Loral for the benefit of everyone who apparently missed it the first time:

"This isn't about casuals getting access to raiding gear - this is about single-group progression getting as much attention as high-end raids."

To be honest, its hard for me to put my finger on exactly what my problem is but its not just gear.

Back in the LDON days, I could log on when I got home from work, find a group, and go on one to two adventures. I earned some points that would, after a week or so of grouping, lead to some nice equipment. LDON wasn't perfect by any means, but it was the one expansion I can recall where I could always get a group and get going. The same was true with DODH but mostly with monster missions.

With POR, I sit in Arcstone. I sit and every so often I ask the group farming armor runes at the fire demon camp if they need another. They usually don't. I will click my whistle and go to TOB. There may be a group or two there farming for alts but they usually respond to my request with "sorry, guild group". Sometimes I'll get invites to other groups but its usually content I've already done many many times (68 spell missions, MPG non-trial, or DON stuff). There are very few groups to be had in POR.

So I ask why. Why do we have an expansion where very few people group at all? I think the content is almost there but there is no good bridge between level 70 mid-level AAs with DON gear and the group farming Theater of Blood.

In World of Warcraft you can hang around in Ironforge and always hear people working on 5 or 10 person groups in Blackrock Spires - the higher-end hunting zone. You can work on epic armor there. Sure, in WOW you hit the wall at 60 and its "40 person high-end raids or bust" but there are still a lot of groups to be had.

I want to see more pickup friendly content for level 70 non-raiders. I want to see better progression paths for armor and epic 1.25s. I want to see gear go fro the 120 DON / MM stuff to the 200 DODH / MPG Trial / Skylance stuff. I want to see a smooth popular progression path for a non-guilded player from level 1 to level 70 / 1000 AAs / Theater of Blood gear. I want to see pickup groups in Theater of Blood and all of the stages in between.

It's not about gear. Its about a smooth progression path through interesting and entertaining content.

As far as my statement about "paying as much attention to the single-group game as the raids" I mean this:

Both Depths of Darkhollow and Prophecy of Ro included single-group raid-style events for non-high-end level 70s. Arcstone has five unique boss mobs that lead people to the Cloak of the Tracker. Depths of Darkhollow had the Seeker mission. These are very raid-like missions for non-raiders. I want piles of those, not just sprinkles.

There are on the order of 20 to 40 raid events in Prophecy of Ro. There are a few interesting events in POR but they are either too hard, too boring, or too unrewarding for people to bother with.

I want SOE to quit thinking that its wrong to let a group of six kill a dragon. I want epic six-person encounters. I want six-person epic gear. I want quest armor sets that don't involve camping the same spot in Arcstone for two hundred years.

Why is it that every boss mob on the cover of each expansion is a boss or zone I will never see? Omens shows Anguish, Dragons shows dragons, Depths shows Dreadspire (ok, I can see that one), Prophecy shows Mistmoore. SOE needs to tie the expansion to the average player, not just the best one. The best model in an expansion shouldn't only be for the one guild able to see it. How many people who purchased DODH ever saw Mistmoore in game? I bet it's well under 1%. Give boss mob models to single-group adventures. DODH actually did a good job of this with the 70.5 spell mission showing Draygun and Vishimtar, but that was about it.

I want a single-group end-game, not just a bridge to high-end raiding.

I don't know if I made it very clear but here are a few specific things I want:

- Add high-end 180 hp / mana class armor sets doable like the spell mission sets in DODH.

- Add five more sets of Arcstone-spirit style mobs in other zones (why can't we hunt big mobs in revamped zones like Ro? How about a Takish Mummy Lord, a Sand Giant Prince, and a Demilich?)

- Add a series of epic 1.25 weapons doable in a series of single-group events for non-raiders. Perhaps six to twelve missions at single-group non-raid difficulty.

- Add a single storyline and progression path that is completable by a single-group.

I hope thats specific enough.

- Loral

Comment Posted by: Aarkan on July 21, 2006 07:28 PM

Why hasn't SoE hired you?

Comment Posted by: defunct on July 21, 2006 07:53 PM

What I would like to see is a bunch of lore added that explains all the stuff that you previously had to comb spoiler sites for endless hours to find out about. Why don't your guild masters in your home city give hints or even quests that point people in the direction of progression, even a bit? A new player could spend almost as much time looking for good quests online as actually doing progression stuff. I prefer to spend my time playing the game, not clicking quest links and reading posts from those who have gone before. Doubt it will ever happen, but it would be nice if the game gave you a clue on some good stuff to do. I guess they didn't think about the big picture much in the rush to add more and more content.

Comment Posted by: Greif on July 22, 2006 03:14 AM

That has been my experience as well as a 70 enchanter and I am raid geared (not uncommon these days). The thing is, I don't know what SOE can do about. The easy stuff is done to death and people don't want to risk taking on strangers in pickup groups for the harder stuff. The more challenging expeditions are hard to get to and wipes are common on any mistakes - usually total wipes require CS stones). There is no happy medium between the two.

Comment Posted by: Skuz on July 22, 2006 04:07 AM

"it's all about the gear"

I've heard that comment thrown around far too lightly, and always by people who only have a narrow view, by virtue of their playstyle, they don't see both sides.

I have played at every level of this game, all but one of the 16 current classes to the 50's, & 4 to 65+ (all by grouping i might add, i abhor PL'ing) yes gear is a factor, but only gear? No! To say raiders play only for gear is an extremely uninformed opinion.

High end raid encounters are fun, very demanding, exciting, & raid geared players with enough time can still group (usually with other raiders) & one advantage is soloing becomes more viable, though mostly to kill twink gear mobs or gain cash, experience soloing isn't that great (well nec, dru, shm do ok), & I do agree with Loral that there should be a focus on delivering "raid-flavoured" content for groups, with much smoother gear-progression, smooth gear progression is there for raiders, but there are big gaps in group progression gear.

Now the biggest difference between raiders & group players I have found, is the "death mindset", most raiders I have played with shrug off deaths, maybe even laugh about them:- as long as it wasn't because someone did something so utterly stupid they shouldn't be in the group in the first place. However a lot of the non-raider/low-mid end raiders, I have grouped with get rather more irritated at dying, regardless of the cause, I think it might be that while a Raid guild is breaking new content they will die, & die, & die.....and die repeatedly...and then die some more, & partly because they may simply only get a low amount of time to play so any exp loss to them feels like a bigger setback.

I hope the downtime changes, death penalty revisions, & greater experience from quests that the next expansion is promising to deliver lessen a lot of group player frustrations ( I still group with my lower level toons, so It's not like i'm out of touch).

But I also hope that smoother gear progression & raid flavoured group encounters ( when they appear in sufficient numbers ) do something to lessen the "casual vs raider" angst.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on July 22, 2006 11:06 AM

/salute Loral --you ought to just make that your next article.

What Greif and Skuz describe sounds like a great case for modifying death penalties to me, or at least for making CR's quicker in those areas. People have complained that without huge penalties death would be meaningless but, as Skuz describes, making death a little less meaningful makes people more willing to take risks, more willing to try new things, more willing to work with new people--and thus they have more fun.

There's nothing more boring than doing something completely safe--SOE shouldn't make that the most profitable use of players' time.

Comment Posted by: Skuz on July 22, 2006 11:46 AM

I don't think I said I advocated making the death penalty lesser.

I was highlighting how player perceptions can hold them back, players too frightened to risk dying, due to either their fear of experience loss, their groupmates lack of skill or their own has a big impact on how often they will get groups.

A lot of what goes on in Everquest, & indeed in any other MMO is subject to player perceptions.

Now fear, lack of trust, or unwillingness to take risks/meet new people are traits found in all players to one degree or another, those same traits probably affect their real lives too.

Now from what I've read the death penalty system is under review, one thing that has been discussed is the zoning issue, zoning to bind upon death may well be able to be eliminated or made a choice, death zoning used to be needed to reset aggro but the devs have tools that can reset aggro for various conditions & death can easily be one of them.

Then you might see a option box on whether you wish to zone to bind or remain in the zone in "ghost" form, or you stay in zone as a ghost as default with the option to zone to bind.

How do you make tougher group scenarios more appealing to pick up groups? I think that's the question SoE need to look at.

My idea?
Maybe they should have a graveyard? or Inn at the zone in of a zone or instance you have a mission/task/quest in, where you can collect your corpse in ghost form then you keep a meaningful death penalty, insofar as you must start at the beginning of the instance/zone but don't have to cross a ton of zones to perform a CR......however what I would do is put these zones/instances in areas that require meaningful grouping to reach, i.e trash clearing etc through a couple of zones, that way you have a challenge to get there but once you got yourselves in the dungeon door, beaten and bruised from your jouney you don't then have to repeat that but can concentrate on the mission/instance.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on July 23, 2006 05:35 AM

Let me clarify: when I talk about the "death penalty" I don't just or even primarily mean the xp. With a 96% rez that's trivial. I mean all the negative consequences of dying, and by far the biggest component is the time wasted. The kinds of things you you're talking about Skuz are exactly what I had in mind too.

Comment Posted by: sunshadow on July 23, 2006 10:45 PM

Another reason I see a lot of the newer zones going empty is the with every expansion the make the trash mobs harder. So now with POR few casters are willing to take on mobs without a tank that can hold agro good. Most mobs in Arcstone summon and can 1 round a caster so any little mistake which over agros the tank = dead caster. This to me is a huge pain, at least in MPG I can take a round allowing the tank to regain agro but in POR, I'm dead.I see this happen a lot to chanters and there is no way realy avoid it, as rune spells really don't stand up to the amount of damage mobs put out these days.

Comment Posted by: Vamirez on July 24, 2006 03:11 AM

My subjective feeling is that Arcstone is of lower difficulty than northern MPG or TC. Mobs hit in the 700s-800s only. It seems to be designed for chars that do not yet have hundreds of AA points and that is a good thing. So far I have had no problems at all there with basically random group setups (druid healer, add management with ranger offtank or rooting for example etc.). I think the harder hitting mobs can be found in Relic, Elddar, Sverag... Mobs in Devastation are painful to split, but the only real hard hitters are the Bolvirk (ouchie). Basically I agree to the experience that each expansion has so far upped the DPS of its average mob, however. So, Arcstone, Ruins and the NRo Mission Arc, which imho break that rule, are fine exceptions because they add content usable by chars not yet ready for yard trash 1.5k hitters.

Comment Posted by: Keisa on July 24, 2006 11:44 AM

I think that Loral has hit on the key point that has been a big effect in the game. I actually started noticing the it in DOD. Zones I traveled through to get to missions were basically devoid of people. I think that expansions primarily made up of instanced missions have that affect. You can have a lot of people playing in the expansion, yet have an empty feel.

Typically, all of my groups are built in guild hall or POK, then we travel to the instance and enter fairly quickly. I seldom see more than 5-10 people in any zone, unless there is a raid coming through. It leaves the game with a big empty feel.

For people who have ready made groups or a good network for building groups, this isn't an issue, because you can always get one started. However, for the casual player, it may be a game breaking feature. I think it is more devestating to the game than any gear difference between the play styles. If casuals are not able to form groups readily, because the instances have effectively hidden all the active players, then that is a very bad thing. It greatly impacts the ability of some to quickly get into groups and play the game.

I think another impact that instances have is that groups are mission driven and don't last beyond the mission. For open zones where you have named mobs that drop loot, groups form at the camp and stay there for hours. People join the group or leave as required. The group may search for replacements when people leave, or move to another mob when they get what they want. Mission oriented groups tend to form with what people they need to do the mission, stay for the completion of the mission, then break up. There isn't a lot of incentive to holding the group together after completion of the mission. This will significantly impact people who cannot form groups quickly, especially with limited visibility caused by instances.

Instances are compartmentalizing the game. I believe that SOE realizes this and it is part of the reason that the next expansion will have large open zones instead of being filled with instances. I hope that such changes will fill zones with people and allow the game to feel more... full.

Keisa

Comment Posted by: RosesareRed on July 24, 2006 03:12 PM

" I don't want my very life to revolve around a cartoon fantasy video game. its not gonna happen. eq will not last forever.one day it will be closed. all those hours you spent in getting uber will be gone.you cant get that back. then what will you do? walk around on the street and tell random people that you used to have a level 80 monk on everquest named superbuttkicka that had 15k hit points unbuffed? "

EQ is a hobby (for most of us). Like golf or tennis or cycling or reading or building model boats or any other hobby, all you have to show for it in the end is the fun of having done it.

If I were playing my first online game today, it wouldn't be EQ. WoW etc. have more intuitive gameplay, superior mouse controls, better looking UIs, more realistic animations ... etc. and most of the info needed to play is available IN the game, not on third party web sites.

It seems to me EQ would have to be rebuilt entirely to entice a new generation of gamers. SOE keeps making the game more accessible but it's still an overly complicated time sink compared with WOW.

Comment Posted by: Plough on July 24, 2006 04:13 PM

The way that Sony has gone about expantions has been backward imho. I know that the bonus items that come with the box (in store) sets are not always a high selling point...but I think a reasonable number of people look to see if it would be worth it to just preorder or see what comes in the box. From a marketing point of veiw, I would thing you would want to entice the digital download version and want to give them the crackerjack expantion prize:

-Dont have to share proffits with any company that will be shelving your box.
-Dont have to pay for the overhead of the box, CDs, art, other paper in the expantion.
-With digital downloads people will preorder more, recouping your losses from R&D in to the expantion faster.

If they should have been enticing either one I would have said entice those digital downloads and up their own proffits.... leave those who buy the boxes. Maybe my understanding of how Sony and their economics works is askew....then again who knows?

Comment Posted by: dont8casual on July 24, 2006 04:58 PM

For casuals, and for many old time and now elite players, some of the best times drove sales. The game has lost much of the feeling due to a number of issues that could easily be addressed.

For many people pressed for time, it about getting on and knowing you can go to 1-2 zones and finding a group quickly. Think of the old days when there were waiting lists in LGuk, Karnors, Seblis, etc. If you were missing a class, it was only a matter of time before someone logged in and you could roll. The banter, chatting, and upgrading camps was also 'fun' for many people. Better than sitting in PoK for 30 minutes, not finding a group and logging. Can you even find a waiting list anymore?

New content. For the first few expansions, the casuals were maybe an expansion or two behind. AND, casuals wound up beating most of the end fights (Vox, Trak, AoW, Emperor). Now think of the last few expansions, percent of casuals finishing GoD? How about Anguish?

If casuals far too far behind they will stop buying. Also, this makes it harder for larger guilds to recruit and get new people flagged and geared up. Both ends fall apart. Of course, the uber-feeling person is happy because they see more of a spread.

The numbers that should be eye opening are WoW's numbers for an easy game where almost everyone reaches the end game. The other number is Shadowbane's where powergamers got their dream ultra-hard game, and everyone can see those pathetic numbers. The more EQ has listened to this group, the more it's numbers have fallen to SB's.

For EQ to grow, they need to look at opening up the crazy flagging requirements on prior expansions that require massive spoiler sites to figure out. Remove flag and seer hell. If a guild can enter Time, let them enter Time. Same for GoD. Same for Anguish. The original flags where not for waste - ubers are far far far far far ahead on content (think that is 6 expansions).

And for next expansion, make it where we have to destroy castle after castle with intelligent defenders. Throw in missions within the main castle area to handle overflows - IF PEOPLE ARE RELATIVELY CAUGHT UP.

Comment Posted by: sunshadow on July 24, 2006 06:58 PM

Plough the reason Sony offers an incentive for the Boxed edition is so that it sells more. If boxed editions where just for new players then no store would carry them as the number of sales would be small. However by enticing existing players to buy in stores it creates a perception of demand which then means the stores are more likely to carry the next expansion.

If there are no boxes on the shelf then there are going to be few new players. I am actually suprised the Box isn't cheaper to buy than the DD.

Comment Posted by: RosesareRed on July 24, 2006 10:35 PM

"For EQ to grow, they need to look at opening up the crazy flagging requirements on prior expansions that require massive spoiler sites to figure out. Remove flag and seer hell. If a guild can enter Time, let them enter Time. Same for GoD. Same for Anguish. The original flags where not for waste - ubers are far far far far far ahead on content (think that is 6 expansions)"

Completely agree .... the flagging system is WAY too complicated for today's players. All the tiers, factions etc. are a time sink no one will invest in now... it's just not FUN.

In the early days of online gaming, people were willing to invest the time ... it was a novelty, an adventure ... but now, with so many other alternative games ....

New players are just not going to play a game that is antiquated looking and no fun. It's a GAME = fun play time.

Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on July 24, 2006 10:59 PM

The problem with �single group� epic encounters with epic loot is that you cut down �busy time� drastically.

By �busy time� I mean the amount of time a guild spends doing the raids to acquire the loot for every single member of the guild. Adding single group epic encounters with great loot means that players gear up much faster, since its not repeating to gear up a guild but to gear up a group of 6. Keeping players gearing up for 6 months is what has �worked� for SOE so far. And unfortunately it also has worked for World of Warcraft so I doubt SOE will be changing this approach anytime soon.

I am not saying this is what I personally like, but unfortunately it�s a sad truth. Yes, you can make a point based system where people must grind for points to acquire equipment just as they did with LDON, I actually would love to see such a thing, but not sure how SOE feels about the idea. Making the �points� or whatever needed to �buy� a piece of loot only acquirable by defeating the epic encounters, and then again specific points for specific pieces from specific encounters, do may yield similar results. Also as Loral states, its not about giving loot on these encounters that will rival the huge raid loot, but at least something that does gets perceived as an upgrade path.

Comment Posted by: concerned1 on July 27, 2006 04:51 AM

wanted to comment on some things: first i see where some people talk about the trash mobs hitting harder or being tougher in new expansions.as i remember when i played there was a increasing problem with that and what seemed to be causing it has to do with AC. see years ago the classes had AC "caps". points at which no matter if you added more AC or not it did nothing. the problem with that is its usefulness is directly tied to mob attack rating.eq is made of giant code. the devs want to throw new code in there cross their fingers and hope it works out for the best. which is why you see all these broke things and bugs and mobs seem to have unfair advantages and get stronger.some of it is intened but some is not. they dont want to spend the money to fully check it or re-do it.this ties back into the AC situation. when the new expansion is made but there is no new AC cap been made in years guess what that does? it actually has a negative effect on your AC. even if "uber" items raise your ac there still exists a "cap" in which more AC does you no favor , get the picture? the only exception to this i am aware of since i played eq was i read where alot of "uber" raider monks complained and got their AC altered. but i dont know to what extent.

Comment Posted by: Glormane on July 27, 2006 08:01 AM

Firstly I�d like to quantify whats to come by saying I�ve never played WoW or EQ2. I do raid, but don�t see myself as a hardcore raider.

To look at EQ and say it is a game for the Hardcore or Uber is incorrect. Ever since LDON instances we have seen a viable alternative to open grouping and raiding. With the advent of OOW this got much better, and there are now instances to group in and raid in where upgrades can be obtained for Casual players.

I think the problem many have is they will not research (To look up a resource, i.e. rune/gear dropping mob, strat for a mob, spawn time etc.)
or network (To effectively bring people together to form a group and to work through an event, mission, or mob strat).

Hence you have people sitting in POK whining that they cant get groups, or gear or spells etc.

Not all of these are casual folks. Some turn to raiding as a way of advancement, part of the flock or the herd, not the brains part.

Loral said �High-end gear has nothing to do with time or energy or skill. The gear one has is completely dependent on your guild tag. That's what bothers me.� This I think is only the case in the interim, as you join a guild that is better geared than you are. You as a new recruit will probably get the rot loot in encounters the guild must do to progress (i.e. like P1 in Time, or MPG raids for flagging those for COA). Eventually your new recruit is geared in a similar fashion to the guild and will be trying and dying new content. It is then that the person makes or breaks it. They either learn how to learn new content, to pull positive points from a wipe, and try again with the knowledge they gained from the previous event or drop back to a guild doing lower content, a big fish in a smaller pond, but never really giving any insite into how they got their uber gear in the first place.

I remember mid way to the end of GoD, I�d got to know this guy in my guild and he asks me, �Do you want to try this instanced? Its pretty hard but doable and the loot is a Time quality Bracer� The trial was Tipt and I think I was in all LDON gear at the time, my guild was in the early stages of POP progression. I got my girlfriend, who played a Druid, a few friends from the guild and off we went and tried it.

Did we win first time? No we died. Did we wipe and try it again straight away? No we went and did something else we knew to consolidate. Were we there again next weekend the same crew trying again? Wiping to Maternal Cragbeast? Sure were. Did we in time get Bracers for all of us? Yes we did. The moral of this is, make friends, research stuff for you to do, learn stuff. You Don�t need Raid gear to progress.

Comment Posted by: concerned1 on July 27, 2006 01:34 PM

yeah this guys is right: EQ clearly caters to casual style players. that must be why 200k subscribers have quit in the last 14 months or so and why wow has millions of subscribers.

Comment Posted by: Skuz Bukit on July 27, 2006 06:25 PM

200k , you want to share your source for that information, or was it a guess?

Only SoE know the numbers of anything everquest related, anyone else is guessing.

Comment Posted by: concerned1 on July 27, 2006 10:27 PM

sure.got it from mmorpg chart website.i think the link for it is on this post actually. here is a novel idea: why dont you disprove it? contact soe and ask .

Comment Posted by: Glormane on July 28, 2006 05:17 AM

Concerned 1 said "yeah this guys is right: EQ clearly caters to casual style players. that must be why 200k subscribers have quit in the last 14 months or so and why wow has millions of subscribers."

Obviously there are other games out there now, like EQ, that have taken the same ideas from EQ and developed them their own, way, WOW especially seen the demand for solo play and catered to it. Alot of ideas that are in EQ now were borne from WOW, such as Attunable gear, and instances, just as alot of ideas from EQ formed the basis of WoW.

What I am saying in my post is, that EQ more than ever before is catering to those that only have an hour or two play time per session, that do not wish to or have time to raid. Its not perfect, but I imagine no game is without its problems.

If you are unable to spare 10-15 mins searching Alla before you play, or putting 3-6 people together to do something, then maybe EQ is not for you, because switching your LFG sign on and shouting in POK for an hour may not be the way to get all the obviously deserved loot you desire.

Comment Posted by: armarant on July 28, 2006 10:49 AM

Glormane wrote:Obviously there are other games out there now, like EQ, that have taken the same ideas from EQ and developed them their own, way, WOW especially seen the demand for solo play and catered to it. Alot of ideas that are in EQ now were borne from WOW, such as Attunable gear, and instances, just as alot of ideas from EQ formed the basis of WoW.

-------

I cant speak for attuneable items but I know that instances were in everquest before wow was even out you cannot say that EQ copied instancing from wow if any game it copied it from it was anarchy online.

Comment Posted by: Armarant on July 28, 2006 10:53 AM

Concerned1 wrote: sure.got it from mmorpg chart website.i think the link for it is on this post actually. here is a novel idea: why dont you disprove it? contact soe and ask .

---

What happened to the person makeing the accusation having to prove its true? or do you follow the rule of guilty until proven innnocent? you know you cant prove EQ lost 200k subscribers so your just useing the run around.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on July 28, 2006 12:58 PM

Networking is great--IF you have a fairly consistent play schedule.

I remember being flabergasted way back on Orc Hill in GFay the first time someone said "Great group! Are you going to be on tomorrow?" I thought "Well, if my next lecture is done, and my son's actually asleep, and my wife doesn't want to do something together, and there's nothing that needs doing around the house, and if I feel like playing EQ instead of something else....what, you've got '8:00--Play EQ' pencilled into your schedule?" I think I said "I don't know, but I'll look for you if I am." In reality I rarely grouped with anyone twice at that point, while others I got to know later quickly formed regular groups they played with every night right there in GFay. As my son got older and his schedule more regular (and as EQ got its claws deeper into me) I did start playing more regularly and got to know more people, but I never got to the point of being able to say "Yes, I'll be on tomorrow" unless it was for a raid I had cleared in advance with my wife.

That's the great divide in MMORPG's today (even more so in WoW where the raids tend to come in smaller chunks, but you still need to coordinate your schedule with 39 other people). If you are willing and able to plan your schedule around the game, you'll be able to network with other people who have the same schedule and do all sorts of things. If you can't, if you log on at random times and if finding that someone you know and can group with is on at the same time is the exception for you, then you're stuck putting up your LFG flag and/or shouting in PoK.

That doesn't have to be a barrier to play. WoW managed to create a lot of content that people can do on their own terms in pickup groups. Not enough, but they claim the expansion will fix that (we'll see). It's really a question of whether a company wants to put the resources into making such content--so far Blizzard has done the best at it, and their subscription numbers soared as a result. But WoW leaves plenty of room for improvement, and it will be interesting to see what comes next.

Speaking of subscription numbers, yes mmogchart.com says their 200k number for EQ is an estimate, but doesn't the mere fact that SOE shut down half the EQ servers--and yet they're still not overcrowded--suggest that they lost about half their peak subscribers? Loyalty to your game is fine, but accepting reality is good too.

Comment Posted by: bonkers on July 28, 2006 06:49 PM

SOE recently stated at their block party during ComiCon that 85k were online (and that the progression servers were ~2x higher than the next server). They've also stated in the past that 30% of subs are online during peak hours.

So that gives around 285k subs. +/- it as much as you want.

Comment Posted by: Skuz on July 29, 2006 08:19 AM

[[ Removed since the commented upon trolling flaming post was removed ]]

Comment Posted by: Kaelon on July 29, 2006 12:45 PM

Concerned1 is correct -- SOE has acknowledged that there are between 100-150k EQ subscribers presently, and it was confirmed and reported by MMOGChart.com.

I admire Loral's optimism on the way EQ should be played. I really wish this were the game that he wanted it to be, but, it's basically not looking at facts. EverQuest, by and large, is tailored to raiders and all of the end-games in just about every expansion has been raid-based; the top rewards have been derived from raiding, and the gap between a raider and non-raider is incredibly huge and disparate. There are some exceptions and in recent expansions, efforts have been made to narrow the gap between raider and non-raider, but there will never be a scenario where a non-raider will be able to get "comparable" gear to a raider, and this is a shame, because, like Loral, I agree that small group adventures should be a feasible way to gear up your character to the end-game, and some people - myself included - aren't always eager to engage in zerg-like raiding.

This is a shame because EverQuest is an incredibly well-done game, especially for casual gaming; it's just that the disparity of the content between raiders and casuals is so great that casual players are regularly frustrated with the lack of progression and their inability to keep their social networks entact for in-game progression utilization.

The numbers speak for themselves, however. EverQuest's subscriptions have plummetted in response to the lack of a solid, openly accessible end-game available to everyone. SOE appears to be learning lessons from this (implementation of new gameplay styles tailored to casuals is encouraging, but it doesn't really go far enough), but it remains to be seen whether this is enough to stem the rapid decline in subscribers and stabilize the populations before it is too late. EverQuest deserves better.

Comment Posted by: Bonkers on July 29, 2006 01:01 PM

I've got to wonder about the constant "EQ is for raiders only", WoW is casual friendly because it has xxx players. Have any of you played WoW? What happens when you breeze to 60 in a couple weeks. Try playing in Battlegrounds and see if you can cut it. Look at your "casual" gear and compare it to the players raiding every single night, as long or longer than EQ raiders.

Someone in EQ can play up to 70 and have plenty to do far more than a casual in WoW. No, they can't complete top end encounters but neither could you in WoW. WoW simply tapped a whole different demographic and pushed for servers outside America. It's really no different than EQ.

In both games casual players are not going to get equivilant gear. People need to come to terms that you are not entitled to everything the game has without putting some time and effort into the game. That is how they maintain the subscriptions.
There is a carrot dangling in front of everyone it doesn't matter if you're trying to get a MPG trial loot or a Sullon Zek loot.

Comment Posted by: Kaelon on July 29, 2006 01:19 PM

Bonkers, I'm not necessarily indicating that WoW is for casual gamers in ways that EQ isn't; but EQ is extremely inaccessible for the casual gamer. Can you honestly say that you would recommend EQ to a player who hasn't ever played EQ before? It's almost an insult (and I'm not talking about the dated graphics engine, the poorly designed early game, or the confusing and often conflicting early-to-