Notes from the Spring 2006 Summit and Fan Faire
by Loral on April 06, 2006
This article will act as my living journal of the Everquest Spring 2006 Community Summit and Fan Faire. Continue to watch this article throughout the event for recent updates and news. I will also post new pictures of the event to a Flickr set called Everquest Spring 2006 Summit and Fan Faire Pictures. I will note when I have taken more picture.
Thursday, 6 April 2006, 7:25am:
It was a long day yesterday. Many of the Summit attendees arrived at 4pm to the Atlanta airport including a handfull of developers. There were a lot of familiar faces and conversations immediately fell to Everquest. The Summit is for both Everquest and Everquest 2 so we had some interesting discussions on the differences between the two games at this particular slice in time. I have let my EQ2 subscription lapse for nearly a year now. There simply isn't time enough for more than two games.
I had a chance to chat with Grumbuk on the shuttle about Everquest and Prophecy of Ro. Grumbuk is the mind behind many of the analytical tools that help catch cheaters including many Macroquest players. Gemdiver mentioned that a pile of characters on Fennin Ro were recently simultaneously banned due to macroquesting. Grumbuk's eventual goal is to have a system in place that can actively monitor the population for such cheats and act upon these data but at the moment he worries that even a system with 99% accuracy might still ban legitimate characters due to strange bugs so he simply compiles the data and gives it to CS to act upon it.
The Marriott is a beautiful hotel, a 40 story concrete monster with a hollow center. From the 27th floor, I can look down through the inside of the building but doing so makes me a bit dizzy. The internet runs a steep $13 a day but I'd pay anything for my dear readers.
After checking in I injected myself into a planned dinner with some of the developers. I had about five minutes from check in until I had to be back down in the lobby. A nerd might have run up and had his or her laptop set up within that five minutes, skipping other unnecessary behaviors like brushing teeth or putting on some fresh deodorant. Only a true renaissance nerd, however, has to load his fountain pen full of ink from a bottle. Fountain pens don't fly well, you see, so a small canister of black Noodler's permanent fountain pen ink always travels with me along with my three favorite fountain pens: a Pilot Vanishing Point, a Lamy 2000, and the pen of the gods, a massive Pelikan M-1000. I'll likely only use the Vanishing point but I like having the other two handy.
We spent most of dinner chatting on a variety of topics. Oblivion came up often throughout the night. Many of the developers including Rashere and Zajeer are playing Oblivion on Xbox 360. I have the PC version but the framerate drops so low that it is an exercise in frustration every time I play. The conversations once again reinforced that the development team are gamers first and foremost. Designing games pays their bills but they also do it because they love it.
I didn't recognize Chris Lena, the Everquest producer, until I heard him speak. I had met him once before but he radically changed his appearance from his Neil Gaimanesque look to something like the main character in Jarhead. I haven't had a chance yet to sit and pick his brain, but the visit is still young.
I had a great conversation in what I hope is a string of conversations with Kwill of EQ Vault on what it means to be an Everquest journalist. We shared a few emails and in-game chats about a recent rash of articles bashing professional game journalism as strictly fluff pieces with inflated ratings. Having been often accused of the same thing, it brings up many questions on our roles and responsibilities as non-professional game journalists (a snobby term, indeed). I could write a whole article about it but I don't know that there is much interest so I will save it for now.
Breakfast is at 9am with a full day of discussions planned including "Session 1: Growing the Game - Making EverQuest attractive to new players and still remain appealing to current players" in the morning and "Session 2: Prophecy of Ro - A look at the last expansion; what went right, what went wrong, and what we can learn from it.". I have a lot of material to discuss at both meetings. The Evil Agenda should fit nicely into the first discussion and my recent Successes and Failures of Prophecy of Ro article on Caster's Realm should fit the latter.
I will take copious notes and pictures and will post throughout the day.
Thursday, 6 April 2006, 5:15pm:
New Expansion Details, New "Progression" server opening.
Wow, do I have some interesting news. I droned on a lot this morning so I'll cut into some of the more interesting stuff right away.
There will soon be a "not a classic server" server. This server will begin with only the original game unlocked at first. As groups or guilds defeat certain triggered encounters, new expansions will become unlocked. It will be a no-transfer server so everyone is starting off at the beginning of the game. All the new non-expansion features will be there like chat channels, LFG, and new UIs, but features such as Plane of Knowledge won't be active until that expansion is unlocked. All of those who have screamed on the forums for months about a "classic server" will now get their chance to put their money where their mouth is. It sounds pretty interesting and SOE is expecting it to be popular. With some core features removed that we take for granted these days like the Guild Lobby, Nexus, Knowledge, Bazaar, and LDON Magi, it will be interesting to see how much old-world people are willing to take.
Second, SOE threw out some hints at the next expansion. The expansion will be a full level-range expansion from level 1 to 70. They intend to build a new focused set of content for players of all levels and plan to sell the expansion as a stand-alone game as well as an expansion for us old-time players. There is no word on a price, but I expect it to remain at $30. There will be content of all types including solo content, small group content, six-person group content, instances, quests, and other things that we expect at the high-end. There will not likely be low level raids since balancing such things and making them worth the effort is hard when gaining five levels will reap much better benefits. There will be overarching quest lines that will go through a series of levels and even at least one that will go all the way from level 1 to 70. The intent is to make content at those levels that is fun enough that people aren't worried as much about leveling and gearing up to 70 as fast as they can (although I expect we will either see a level increase or a large jump in AAs - likely both).
Rashere mentioned two big areas they will be working on over the next few months: death and downtime. Various ideas for a new death system were discussed (as they were at the last summit) including choices to respawn with gear, a flat 90% res at all levels rather than lower resses at lower levels which doesn't properly scale since life should be harder at the higher levels than it is at the lower. There was no mention of any sort of death effect but the development team is still interested in making death matter.
Downtime will lead to some sort of combat state system so that the EQ system knows players are out of combat and will up the reneration to compensate. This poses problems when players can leave combat, regen, and enter it again when they weren't intended. It's a complicated issue but SOE plans to focus their attention on it.
There will be a new Nektulos revamp that is much more traditional and less Hollywood-set-like. This one has real trees and a real forest. It is much more like the desert of Ro revamp in that the layout is much the same as the original layout. We were able to zoom around it a bit and it looked good.
You learn something every day and today I learned that there is a fellow in the Plane of Knowledge that describes the location for every monster mission. He is apparently available on "find".
With Rytan's recent departure and Rashere no longer working on AAs, two existing developers will now be handling those topics. In strange irony, Prathun will now be the new spell guy. Prathun is very well liked as a high-end raid developer, not to mention being a very easy guy to talk to even though his Street Fighter 2 skills are slightly lacking, so it will be interesting to see how people work with him. Typically spell issues were always hotly debated leading to strong feelings towards the developer in charge. Oshran, the designer of my favorite static zone in POR, Arcstone, will be taking over on AAs. There is no new announcement on a new item guy to take over for Zajeer who is also moving off of items to focus on other content.
Our second session covered Prophecy of Ro, though it quickly fell into other general topics as well. The discussions started around destructible items and how this, traps, and auras lead to a new way to interact with the environment. Many ideas were thrown around including missions, events, raids, and encounters based on destroying or defending various destructible structures. The development team seems continually interested in focusing on features that work well in future expansions as well as the one introduced such as the mission system, monster missions, and now auras, traps, and destructible items. While destructible items was mainly focused in Devastation, the developers plan to use it elsewhere.
The problems with Elddar were known and the programming team is looking for a way to fix the lag in this zone.
That's the word for now. I will post again later tonight or early tomorrow. I added a whole new pile of pictures to the Everquest Spring 2006 Summit Flickr set. I will label a few of these as I remember the names.
Thursday, 6 April 2006, 9:58pm:
We just got back from dinner. I spent much of it grilling a very responsive and patient Chris Lena on all things from the raid / single-group equipment gap to a word-by-word analysis of his quotes on the dev chat a few weeks ago. I did glean a few pieces of info, however.
The new yet-unnamed expansion will likely continue the same release schedule so I expect to hear more official details in a month. The release itself will likely be September.
Feedback on POR has been quiet. Based on the discussions today, there aren't any glaring overall problems like there were with Gates or Depths of Darkhollow. There isn't a big content-changing patch expected anytime soon. I would argue that the problems brought up in my Prophecy report still needed to be addressed but as players grow in power, more of that content previously locked by difficulties will become more available. There's nothing like a level increase to increase overall player power.
SOE currently has no plans to rebuild a Plane of Knowledge and other than a secretly whispered special project of which SOE cannot comment, there are no plans for new player models. SOE did create a new terrain editor that helps with the rebuilding of old zones which was used for the new desert of Ro and the upcoming Nektulos 3.0.
I was corrected on my terminology for the new non-classic classic server which is known, officially, as a "Progression" server. SOE doesn't have exact details on what will open up new expansions, but the mechanics of the unlocking will basically be like unlocking the expansions as if you paid for them. If you are a player who only owns the original game, much of the newer content is cut off. The Progression Server simply treats every player as though they didn't play. Certain free features like POK will still have to be shut off manually.
The exact methods to unlock new expansions is not yet known, but the intention is for more than a single group or guild to do it. The mind quickly falls back to Nagafen raids with individual buffs and camping to chat. For players who do not desire such challenges, expansions will unlock as groups unlock them just as though a new expansion was released. There is a lot of interesting potential, though whether players can really live through the old style again remains to be seen.
More news tomorrow, I'm off to bed.
Friday, 7 April 2006, 8:27am:
My friend Boanerges over at EQClerics posted his notes from yesterday's Summit meetings. He had a lot of good info. Also, my other friend Nanyea posted some additional information from the Summit meetings on the EQLive boards.
Some vanity news: there's a great post about the Everquest Raiding Game on the EQLive forums that used my Caster's Realm article on the topic as a base.
There's also an interesting thread about the difficulty of Theater of Blood. Every time I ask about the intention of this zone, I get a different answer. Personally I think it could have been designed for more players by having less flagging requirements and lowering the DPS and overall damage output a little, but having not hunted there invalidates much of my opinion. Right now I think the value of this zone for a non-raider is to bottomfeed off of the drops that high-end raiders don't want when they tear a line to a huge ubermob. I think it could be more than this.
7 April 2006, 2:40pm
I posted more pictures to the Spring 2006 Summit flickr site.
Baelish gave a very interesting presentation on many of the upcoming changes to EQ Players. Much of it was qualified under a great cloak of secrecy (why you would tell a bunch of press geeks that they can't talk about something, I'll never understand) but much of it sounds interesting. A few things we CAN talk about includes a fully CSS implementation of player profiles that other websites can skin. Your guild's website can post character profiles with any look or layout that they wish.
Guild rosters can be pulled directly from EQ Players in XML, letting guilds reformat, sort, and display rosters any way they wish.
Other whispers and rumors include an in-game tournament system, an in-game tie to Comic Book Creator, dream profiles with gear you WISH you had, automatic paperdoll uploading, automatic screenshot uploading, an automated DKP system, and an in-game browser to tie to many of these services. A lot of these features are still under discussion and planning so we'll have to see what happens.
More Breaking Future Expansion News: "Likely" Level Increase to Level 75, New Starting City
I got a "most likely" confirmation on a level increase to level 75 in the upcoming unnamed fall expansion. That should help a lot of players increase their power enough to handle content previously out of reach such as the MPG Trials and the harder DODH missions.
There will "probably" be raid content above Deathknell as well so it sounds like players of all levels have a good reason to head into this one.
The goal of the expansion is for players to be able to go from level 1 to level 75 and all the way through the post-Deathknell raid content in this single expansion alone. It will likely be far more efficient for players to go back to previous expansions at various points in their growth, but the intent is for the expansion is to be a new starting point for new Everquest players including a new starting city.
Friday 7 April 2006, 11:09pm
While most of the Fan Faire attendees and developers headed over for karoke and live music, I spent some time sitting with the bard correspondent, the lead programmer, and senior programmer for Everquest. We had a great conversation surrounding everything we heard so far including the Progression server, the new look at the death penalty, the low level game, atlas changes, improvements in the hotzone system, further use for environmental effects such as breakable items, and a lot of other things. It is always great to see how much these guys love their game and love talking to players about it.
Here are a few more notes from the panel.
There was discussion surrounding the Atlas and additional information one might be able to see. Coloring certain zones to represent current population was the best suggestion I heard so that players can see where current popular zones are located and find groups a little easier.
I spoke more to Grumbuk and Jamey Ryan about how pathing works and asked the pathing bug questions that came up in the comments earlier. The 20k fall off of the horse while using an aura has been fixed on test. Much of the pathing information requires more information on the specific zones, mobs, and any other data. They are working on pathing issues and discussed the difference between the pathing meshes used in old world zones to their new "Path Volume System" that lets them mark out possible paths with wide geometric boxes instead of simple lines. They talked about the pathing problems with Arcstone and pulling mobs above a certain Z axis and hope to have a fix soon.
This afternoon was the tradeskill and lore discussions. I don't follow tradeskills much so I cannot comment on much of it. Vahlar mentioned that they are planning to compile the lore behind the previous eleven expansions and post it so players can get a feeling for what has happened over the years.
I also forgot to mention something that Boanerges mentioned in his report: new AA sets are likely to cost a lot more AAs than previous sets. This caused a big stir back in Gates of Discord, but AAs are much easier to get now both in the higher experience rewards in zones and with the fact that AAs get easier to earn once you reach higher levels. The AA for a level 50 costs exactly the same experience that an AA costs at level 70 but level 70s get much more experience per kill. The answer to the age old question of "should I level or should I get AAs" should always slant towards level.
Tomorrow will be the meat of the EQ panels so expect more notes tomorrow afternoon. I also posted more pictures to the Spring 2006 Summit and Fan Faire Flickr Page
Saturday, 8 April 2006, 8:32am
Kwill has two excellent fan faire reports posted including the EQ Vault Community Summit Report and Pakse's Community Summmit Report.
A brief Discussion of Alternate Advancement
Yesterday I briefly mentioned some of the discussions surrounding Alternate Abilities without going too far in depth. Here is a bit more discussion.
The level increase to 75 in the next expansion will likely include a new set of AAs to upgrade basic class-specific AA skills such as durability, healing improvement, magic damage improvement, lightning reflexes, and other class-defining abilities. These skills will require base AA improvements just as spells require improvements when a class goes from level 70 to 75. Like the level increase, these AA increases will improve the baseline power of high-end characters in Everquest regardless of whether they raid or hunt in single-groups.
At higher levels, AAs are much easier to acquire than they are at lower levels. For older players, AAs are much easier to acquire now than they were back in the days of Luclin and Planes of Power. As levels increase, so do the experience point rewards of defeated creatures. Yet the cost for a single AA remains the same - roughly the same cost as going from level 50 to level 51. This means that AAs designed for levels 71 through 75 should cost much more than baseline level 50 AAs and likely will. For example, there may be a new set of Healing Adapt AAs that go from 1% to 10% but cost 10 AAs per percent or 100 AAs for the whole set. That may seem daunting at lower levels but at level 70, one can earn an AA per hour doing monster missions alone. This rate is much higher in certain high-experience-reward areas such as the Nest and Hive missions.
Players of Everquest above level 50 are of two minds when it comes to AAs. Older players who hunt often and earn vast quantities of AAs rather quickly constantly require new AAs in order to have a reason to hunt. Raiders especially rarely earn any equipment in single-group hunts that they desire. Their only reason to hunt in single groups is to earn experience, but if they are maxed out on AAs, they don't even have that.
The other type of player, newer players attempting to reach higher levels and higher-end content, see that 400 AAs might be required to earn all of their baseline abilities expected from a high end player and fall into despair. It may take them two hours to earn a single AA at level 55 or above. Earning 400 such AAs would take far longer than most players have the time to spend.
SOE discussed various ways this might be approached. Some mentioned baseline quests that would reward players with a set of AAs on a given line. Complete a set of four missions and earn the entire bank of Healing Adapt 1, 2, and 3 AAs for example. Complete another set and earn all of the Healing Gift line. This would speed up the progression of a newer character through lines of their baseline AAs.
Whether we see such quests in the future is unknown. However, it is clear that earning AAs today is much easier than earning AAs in the past. Every expansion opens up newer high-experience areas where players can quickly earn new skills.
As a new player grows, they should seek out new levels before worrying about new AAs. While some baseline AAs, perhaps 24 or so, should be spent on critical effects, divine arbitration for example, most AAs should not be worried about until a class hits the highest levels and earns the most experience per kill that they can.
Saturday, 8 April 2006, 6:26pm
Possible Level Increase to Level 80?? Madness!
At one of the four EQ sessions today, Rashere said they were tossing around the idea of a level increase to 75 or 80. A level increase to 80 is unlikely given that SOE has never done it in the past and that the extra levels would require tons of extra content, spells, disciplines, and equipment. A level increase to 80 would also radically alter the difficulty of old-world content. Still, it is fun to lean back and imagine what would happen with a level increase to 80.
There were four EQ related sessions today including Items and Spells, The Future of Everquest, Prophecy of Ro, and Class Balance. Most of the discussions focused around very specific things including particular items or spells or the way auras work in POR. There was little general news beyond the red herring level 80 drop.
I had a chance to meet my old friend Ben, the editor of Mobhunter's articles, and introduce him to all the developers.
We spent some time talking to Larry Elmore (pic), the artist who does all of the covers for Everquest's expansions. He's a great no BS guy who will tell you stories about the fantasy industry back for thirty years. Every old cover of Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms that dragged you into the world of fantasy role playing was likely done by him. He's a wealth of information and a very personable guy. If you ever get to a Fan Faire or you happen to be at this one, visit his booth and say hello. You won't regret it.
Sunday, 9 April 2006, 5:24pm
I return home after three days of madness and excitement. I learned little else of major note, but no doubt a few details will return to me.
I did learn that when the crystal form of experience arrived in monster missions that the pirate monster mission will offer up more experience for each crystal recovered beyond the base 20. This is one of my favorite fun monster missions so I can't wait to try it out further. I also heard more about the many progression and story lines that will follow new players from level 1 to "max level" in the new expansion. Progressive storylines will follow players along as they progress through the lore. Also, characters will be able to submit lore books to a central library where others can come learn about the lore of the lands in this new expansion.
I had a clarification on some of the EQ Players functions mentioned a few days ago. After talking to some of the EQ Live developers, it was clear that little discussion between the EQ Live developers and the platform developers has occurred. I wouldn't expect many of the features mentioned in the EQ Players presentation to go live anytime soon for EQ1.
I will write up a full summary of the weekend's activities in a few days.
Thank you for reading!
Loral Ciriclight
9 April 2006
loral@loralciriclight.com
Comment Posted by: Bim on April 6, 2006 01:26 PM
It would be good if you could discuss the fact that the recent horrible itemization has ruined otherwise worthy content. Fabled 2006: A total bust because all the loot sucks, unlike in prior years. DoDH: Required a complete retune after release. Numerous recent high end zones having loot so poor they remain empty like Nest, Dreadspire, and pretty much every DoDH uninstanced zone. The generally dislike Demiplane loot. Etc etc ad nauseum.
Comment Posted by: Tanker on April 6, 2006 02:26 PM
Umm, the guy you talked to about the hacker-catching tools sounds like Grumbuk.
I'm Tanker, and I'm not at Fan Faire this year. I left the EQ team earlier this year for an "unannounced project".
Comment Posted by: Elfauna Eaglewing on April 6, 2006 03:26 PM
Have a good trip, write good, eat your vegetables!
Love,
Mom
Comment Posted by: bleh on April 6, 2006 03:43 PM
Sony super hero online or star trek?
8-)
Comment Posted by: Loral on April 6, 2006 05:13 PM
You're right Tanker - I always got your names mixed up =\ Sorry. Fixing it.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on April 6, 2006 11:01 PM
Loral Wrote: The new yet-unnamed expansion will likely continue the same release schedule so I expect to hear more official details in a month. The release itself will likely be September.
this would seem pretty tough for them to pull off. especially if they are selling the expansion as a stand alone game deal. unless they hired more people I dont see how they will get a expansion this amibitious done in 6 months.
Comment Posted by: Pomaikai Po'okela on April 6, 2006 11:12 PM
Not a lot of comments about PoR? Ok, the content isn't too bad, other than itemization isues and a few other things, but what about the bugs? I mean PoR unleased a hellstorm of bugs that are still disrupting the game from basic movement issues, to grouping problems, and raid problems. The Z-Axis has been well and truly buggered, pathing is a joke, and the person who let the mount/aura collision bug out of Beta should be castrated and his balls made into castinets! Pet pathing, mob pathing, mob warping, etc... When are we going to see this crap fixed? After the next expansion is released?
Comment Posted by: Simkine on April 7, 2006 08:16 AM
The new Progression server sounds interesting. I wonder how long it will take to open expansions. I wouldn't want it too fast but there's what 11 of them not to mention the ones that will be released by while this is going on. Well, at least you won't have to buy them for a while.
I can hardly wait for the Kunark expansion to open and every cleric gunning for his epic. Good times!
Comment Posted by: Loral on April 7, 2006 08:16 AM
"I mean PoR unleased a hellstorm of bugs that are still disrupting the game from basic movement issues, to grouping problems, and raid problems. The Z-Axis has been well and truly buggered, pathing is a joke, and the person who let the mount/aura collision bug out of Beta should be castrated and his balls made into castinets! Pet pathing, mob pathing, mob warping, etc... "
If you can give me more specific details on where this is occurring, I can ask them about it. None of this came up from any of the 20 other Summit represenatives and I personally haven't witnessed it.
Comment Posted by: Pomaikai Po'okela on April 7, 2006 08:40 AM
Loral, I could swear I see you posting on the EQLive forums...
Go hop on your mount, cast your new PoR Aura, and go running around the Karana's until you collide with your own Aura on a totally flat plain and fall for 20k damage and die. That's a freaking hoot!
Mob and Pet pathing are totally screwed atm. Pet's just never make it to their intended mob as they are spending their entire time doing the chicken dance while the mob eats the caster for lunch. They mobs have a tendancy to never actually come when you pull them. Heck there are places you can stand around and DoT mobs to death without a snare or root because they never quite manage to figure out how to get to you!
Mobs are warping left and right in most zones. You pull them, they meander around and maybe join your pet in the chicken dance, and then suddenly warp on top of you. This is both in grouping and raid encounters.
Line of sight issues are just pathetic at the momement. Being levi'd usually renders the Find feature, either the zone one or the leader aa ones, inoperable. The evil Mysterious Forces BS message. This happens in the Bazaar as well! I was in Doogles small bank in PoK yesterday with a levi on, and riding my Drogmore. I was giving some items to a friend and chit chatting in /tell's for a bit, and then tried to leave. I had managed to get stuck in the ceiling while bobbing up and down! /rewind didn't work, and the only way out was to drop my Drogmore. Yeah, not a problem there, but what about that happening in a room full of nasty mobs while invis?
These problems have been discussed on the EQlive Veterans forum, which I know you visit, ad nauseum. Look through the posts there and ask about these game breaking bugs! I am not looking forward to these taking as long as the AH/GoM bug took to "fix". Six months to disable the aa causing all the problems was ridiculous, especially knowing all along how easy it was to just disable AH and let the rest of us Clerics get on with our healing...
Comment Posted by: ChelequaRom on April 7, 2006 09:09 AM
There are also post PoR problems with archery. In a raid or group setting, arrows rarely find their mark. Reportedy on the zek server these lost arrows are damaging raid and group members.
The mob pathing problem i have seen first hand. One of the crustaceans in Natimbi that previously pulled with a single arrow shot will now ping-pong under water while you shoot it. You have to get all the way back to the wall past the sitting dwarf before it will climb out or warp to you in a timely fashion.
Comment Posted by: Loral on April 7, 2006 09:10 AM
I tend to avoid a lot of the "omg bug" posts on the forums and focus instead on content related things.
I wrote down a list of the things you mentioned and I will check in with the SOE guys here, either programmers or designers, to see what the issues are and whether they will be fixed.
Comment Posted by: Bim on April 7, 2006 09:37 AM
Loral: "I wrote down a list of the things you mentioned and I will check in with the SOE guys here, either programmers or designers, to see what the issues are and whether they will be fixed."
I sure hope you meant to say "when" they will be fixed, not "whether", given the fact that we are talking about basic game functionality.
Comment Posted by: Richard Hinson on April 7, 2006 09:39 AM
Loral,
I have to pipe in here and second what Pomaikai Po'okela said. It's not like SOE is unaware of the issues. They just aren't addressing them. It's much the same as pathing bugs in previous expansion, or any other problem from previous expansions. Once SOE changes focus to the "next big thing" they ignore everything that is already broken.
The real shame here is that you, Ny, and the rest of the "press" not longer scream bloody murder over this.
Comment Posted by: Samanna on April 7, 2006 10:25 AM
Where's the pix?
Comment Posted by: Samanna on April 7, 2006 10:26 AM
Oops, found them.
Comment Posted by: Arnach on April 7, 2006 12:39 PM
The release of PoR also horribly bugged PoTime, phases 1-3. My guild is not yet sure if they have fixed the bugs, so we are stuck doing phases 1-3 w/ members complaining about not being able to use auras or traps. If an aura or trap is active during phase 1, 2, or 3 in PoTime, the phase never successfully completes. We can clear a phase with 30+ extra minutes and not be able to move on, because for some reason auras/traps make the game think we haven't completed the phase. It's not too bad clearing phases 1-3 without auras or traps, but it'd be nice to atleast be able to use features that we paid for.
Comment Posted by: Pomaikai Po'okela on April 7, 2006 01:53 PM
Aura's and traps are actually LDoN Invisible Man NPC's around level 52. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the script in Time P1-3 is seeing those mobs (your aura's and traps) as unkilled mobs, and thereby not triggering the next phase of the script. As far as the instance is concerned, you still have mobs left to kill...
Comment Posted by: Tuppet on April 7, 2006 02:09 PM
time can be completed. just have a raid rule that no traps/auras can be allowed in time, the script will run just fine. stay with that until we know for certain that it's fixed.
Comment Posted by: Dorboln on April 7, 2006 04:02 PM
You can use auras, just need to port everyone out at the end of each phase you get stuck on, then zone back in once all are out.
Comment Posted by: bleh on April 7, 2006 04:29 PM
tell them to add a freaking guildhall portal to arcstone
Comment Posted by: Aarkan on April 7, 2006 06:00 PM
YES! PROGRESSION SERVER!
I cannot wait.... Kunark... Velious... Luclin... KUNARK! Say it with me Kuuuuuuuu-nark!
Comment Posted by: Richard Hinson on April 7, 2006 07:25 PM
Aarkan, soon as the server launches you can count on the fact you'll have lots of company on it, myself included.
Comment Posted by: Patience on April 7, 2006 07:33 PM
I think it's fair to say that many EQ fans would like to see all, or at least many, of the bugs fixed BEFORE a new expansion hits the shelves. A new expansion every 6 months is a bit ridiculous anyway. Sony needs to give it a rest and fix serious issues within the game that are upsetting their constituency, before those people decide to vote for a new game and leave EQ. I know many people who have left already simply because they were fed up with new expansions being released without current bugs being resolved first.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on April 7, 2006 08:22 PM
patience wrote:I think it's fair to say that many EQ fans would like to see all, or at least many, of the bugs fixed BEFORE a new expansion hits the shelves.
---------------------
just the vocal minority (the rest of the people are happy playing the game)..
and I always notice how very vague people are when complaining about bugs before expansions are announced. they say.. we want the bugs fixed!.. but when asked.. what bugs do you what fixed? alot of people are very vague or are very rude.
I personally have not noticed any game breaking bugs since the long string of patches a while ago, people have still been able to form groups and get experience/win instances without noticeing the "bugs".
Comment Posted by: Kharza-kzad on April 7, 2006 09:57 PM
I'd love to see the "trigger" for the opening of kunark to be the slaying of the eye of veeshan.
Sky was truly a challenge before kunark, and some of the best times I had in EQ. I literally lived in sky in the months before kunark was released.
Kharza-kzad
Comment Posted by: Loral on April 7, 2006 11:07 PM
"I'd love to see the "trigger" for the opening of kunark to be the slaying of the eye of veeshan."
There's no way a raid of level 50s can defeat the eye of veeshan. I'm guessing the triggers would likely be Naggy or Vox or both.
Comment Posted by: Aarkan on April 8, 2006 12:34 AM
So Sky wasn't beaten before Kunark was released? Somehow I find that hard to belive.
Comment Posted by: dawhite on April 8, 2006 12:39 AM
I and many others would love to see more character customization. this would make the game more appealing to some others.
My friend was disapointed when i told her that there are no ear/ring , cloak graphics... Lots of the weapons look the same..
some people do judge books by the cover =\
Comment Posted by: simkine on April 8, 2006 07:12 AM
I think it's disappointing that the best SOE can come up with is yet another level increase and more AA's. Same, tired, thing.
Look, the game is going on 8 years old. Let's shake it up some. Adding levels and AA's has the intended affect of making previous content from easier to trivial the farther back you go.
Instead, I really like the suggestions someone made about multi-classing. Put some limitations around it like maybe the second class can only be 50-66% your primaries max level or what classes can multi into. Every new expansion, bump it a bit more. Max 50, max 55, max 60, etc...
Imagine a warrior/cleric. How would that help? Groups easier to make, solo more of a possibility. During raids, it's not like your warriors can stop tanking while they cast 10 sec cheals on themselves (if they were 50% of level 70 they wouldn't even have cheal).
Yeah, not going to happen, but it would shake up the MMO landscape and make EQ stand out.
Comment Posted by: Loral on April 8, 2006 08:15 AM
"So Sky wasn't beaten before Kunark was released? Somehow I find that hard to belive."
I'm pretty sure it wasn't fully defeated until well into Kunark.
Comment Posted by: Vamcill on April 8, 2006 11:27 AM
So do we know when this classic server will go live?
Or even a link to more information on it?
I have been waiting for this for a long time and will come back forsure.
Comment Posted by: Aarkan on April 8, 2006 12:15 PM
I was just thinking about something.. On the progression server when it starts out with just classic the revamped zones are going to be reverted to how they originally were? Like original CT and all that? Also are there going to be melee combat arts and stuff like that at first or are we going to have to unlock that with Gates? What about all the little quality of life improvements that have been made over time? Heck, if they do improve death then it should be implimented with this also...
Hmm.. hell, I don't care, it's gonna be fun!
Comment Posted by: Loral on April 8, 2006 06:22 PM
"On the progression server when it starts out with just classic the revamped zones are going to be reverted to how they originally were? Like original CT and all that? Also are there going to be melee combat arts and stuff like that at first or are we going to have to unlock that with Gates? What about all the little quality of life improvements that have been made over time?"
All features currently existing in old world zones will still be active. UI changes, class changes, revamped zones, all of this will act as it acts now. Newly revamped older zones will be the way they are now. This is the key difference between a "classic" server and this upcoming "progression" server. Much of this has to do with the cost of trying to set up a whole set of older code when all of the new code already works. They couldn't do it.
The easiest way to think about the "progression" server is to think of how your account would play if you hadn't enabled those expansions.
Comment Posted by: Decimous on April 9, 2006 12:16 AM
http://eq1.eqsummoners.com/viewtopic.php?t=25686
Some more detailed information from today's panel discussions for those of you who are interested.
Comment Posted by: xsi on April 9, 2006 05:50 AM
"A level increase to 80 is unlikely given that SOE has never done it in the past..."
Not sure what you are saying here, Loral. Never increased the level limit to 80? That's pretty obvious? Never increased the level limit by 10? Not true... /points to Kunark). Never increased the level limit by 10 since beginning the 6-month release schedule for expansions? True enough...
:)
Comment Posted by: Loral on April 9, 2006 08:03 AM
I certainly would not say that they will never go to level 80, but I think it is unlikely that they will do it in the next expansion. A jump in 10 levels is a really big jump when five would probably accomplish all they want to accomplish.
Comment Posted by: Aarkan on April 9, 2006 09:58 AM
What I would do for old CT.. sigh...
Still looking forward to this though, gonna be fun.
Comment Posted by: newbie on April 9, 2006 10:14 AM
On new players and the duantless task of getting AA'ed up. SoE really shouldn't put to much time and effort into this.
Thier will be no new players to this game. Well none that will stick around long enough to worry about getting AA'ed and geared up.
They should just stick with developing/improving the game for the people that have been thier for the last 7 years.
Comment Posted by: xsi on April 9, 2006 03:16 PM
"On new players and the duantless task of getting AA'ed up. SoE really shouldn't put to much time and effort into this.
Thier will be no new players to this game. Well none that will stick around long enough to worry about getting AA'ed and geared up.
They should just stick with developing/improving the game for the people that have been thier for the last 7 years."
To stop trying to bring in new players would be to admit that EQ is dying, and to, in fact, hasten its demise. Attrition of the existing playerbase is simply a fact of MMO life, and it therefore becomes important to continually try to bring in new players, (or bring back those who quit long ago). Doing otherwise would simply mean that EQ's playerbase would continue to shrink at a far greater rate.
Comment Posted by: uhhuh on April 9, 2006 04:10 PM
"A level increase to 80 is unlikely given that SOE has never done it in the past and that the extra levels would require tons of extra content, spells, disciplines, and equipment"
-----------------------------------------------
Except, they did it the VERY FIRST EXPANSION--- KUNARK...
Comment Posted by: anon on April 9, 2006 04:37 PM
Yes, they did it with Kunark but unless this next expansion is huge I don't think they'd do it. A level increase to 80 would basically obsolete everything before it and therefore would need lots and lots of content in order to gear up everyone. Level 80 gear for all slots, level 80 focus for all slots (10 levels is too much a drain on % focus).
They way they are going, the next expansion after this is going to have 1,000hp gear. Crazy.
Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on April 9, 2006 05:32 PM
Level increase and content trivialization:
Almost everybody likes new level caps, but level caps bring a huge issue, the one of trivialization of old content. At the same time, you also can make content that is impossibly hard off the bat, as it expects you to have a level of power that simply never existed, a level of power that goes beyond pure equipment.
Having played a lot of MMOs, I think the fix for this would be a nice merger of FFXI level caped boss fights and EQ2 master system.
In FFXI, they designed boss fights around a max level. You enter such a fight, and you automatically get lowered in level to the designed level. This makes sure you are weaker and don’t have the huge level advantage, however you also must be sure you equip proper level gear as equipment that is higher level than your effective combat level will be unequipped.
The mentor system in EQ2 is the one high level players use to group with low level friends. Basically you become the same level as your friend. Unlike FFXI, here you do not unequip high level equipment; instead this equipment acts as something appropriate to the level. For example, a legendary item at level 40 will act as a legendary item of level 20 if you went down to that level. Spells and skills are retained despite the level you originally got them at, but they all get curved down to act “as if” they existed at that lower level. So you do become more very more powerful than another level 20, but you are not able to trivialize the content of that level range by such a huge margin. Additionally, XP is earned on this level as if you were killing what you killed. If a level 10 enemy yields 100 points of experience, they will yield 100 points to the level 40 character that has become a master to a level 10. However he gets a penalty, the penalty is bigger the larger the difference between you and your target level is. I don’t know the exact difference but think the maximum penalty is of -90%.
If EverQuest set a max level cap for raid zones, and specific encounter instances, people can automatically lower in effectiveness to the appropriate level, this makes sure they can’t trivialize the content. They still will get xp there albeit a way smaller amount than they would normally. This would free the company to increase level caps on every expansion, making the new zones not over flooding of content for an already existent level range, but a new frontier for everyone.
If the mentor system was implemented in EQ it would also provide a much better system for friends of different level to play together than the current monster mission provides. Honestly, if I'm a bard wood elf, I don’t want to become a beastie so I can group with my friends.
Comment Posted by: Voidus on April 10, 2006 08:39 AM
For the most glaring example of pathing problems in PoR, go to Sverag. After you zone in, turn either right and go to the corner. Look down the long hallway, and pull a mob from the hallway to your position in the corner. The mob will walk straight towards you down the hallway, then at one point will "disappear" from your line of sight and suddenly reappar to your left, approaching you from the zone in area.
This is utterly ridiculous pathing, and it occurs several places in PoR. The Sverag description is just one of many examples. If you pull a mob down a hallway with zero obstructions, the mob should follow that straight line to you. That is fundamental, and it is very irritating that basic pathing issues like this exist in the game.
Fabled 2006 is a joke, the items are completely unbalanced (a 285 hp neck with 8 ac for example). And greater itemization issues, like drops from Theatre of Blood being equivalent to Qvic drops, not being usable by anyone capable of killing the mobs.
Bugs aside, I remember reading not to long ago that the intent was to "add more depth to existing content instead of adding new content". What has happened to that line of thinking?
And a "Progression" server... way to go, dilute the existing server populations even more, making it even harder to find a group. Are they trying to encourage folks to "multi-box" to play the game? Because that seems to be the intent... the content is dependant on the "holy trinity" of tank-slow-heal, yet it is nearly impossible to find that "balanced" group to handle it.
Don't get me wrong, I am an SoE fan, and love this game... but seeing the focus on "power increase" and "new content" vs. "existing issues" makes me very very sad.
Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on April 10, 2006 09:15 AM
The only way to add more depth to existing content is trough:
a) New play mechanics that make the content different yet not easier nor more rewarding
b) New rewards for unpopular content that are equivalent to those somewhere else, to make the place a viable alternative.
None of those two things will ever sell expansions though.
As for the progression server, I think it would had been smarter if they did gave access from the get go to all the currently free zones, zones like the Bazaar and features like the guild halls, should be left available.
The idea behind a progress server should be to allow people to progress trough content, not to be crippled under annoyance.
Comment Posted by: Seamy on April 10, 2006 09:25 AM
Hi Loral,
First let me say thank you for the time you have taken to write all this up and post pics etc! Though I traveled from meeting to meeting I certainly did not pick up the entire mass info you did. Nice job!
One thing I have to agree with other posters regarding is bugs in PoR. It is a shame SOE seems to not care about bugs. My biggest complaint in the game is I am not a beta tester and certainly am not paying them to be one. The week before PoR was released on the final mob in a spell mission in DoDh we encountered a bug, a bad bug, where the named became lodged in the terrain and could not be killed. We lost the mission of course, after much time invested. Several group memebers /petitioned /bug etc etc. Our reply from Sony...."we have had no other complaints regarding this happening....". Funny to me, Allakazam has post after post of this same bug happening. Next along comes PoR, which for what seemed like weeks was a royal pain to even be in the bazaar using 'find' for a vendor, leadership aa find PC was worthless in most zones, and lag has been a nightmare.
My point and like I said my biggest complaint is that they do not have the bugs from the previous expansion fixed after six months and now we have a new expansion with more bugs than ever. I am beginning to think Beta testers are imaginary and we are all being suckered into doing the testing!!
Ok off my soapbox, all in all Fan Faire was a blast, like all things some good, some ehhh could have been better...but still a fun time! My first, and hopefully not my last.
Seamy
Comment Posted by: Seamy on April 10, 2006 09:38 AM
One last thing, Ogulbuk is exactly right. At the developer's brunch, we talked with Chris Leno, game producer, and the topic of improving and adding to the old zones, more content and new things. He told us that while he agreed it would be great, sadly it would not sell and that was the bottom line.
Seamy
Comment Posted by: Loral on April 10, 2006 01:04 PM
I spent a long time with Grumbuk talking about general pathing issues. SOE is definitely aware of the pathing problems recently and has a fix underway. Pathing issues is Grumbuk's main priority right now.
Comment Posted by: sunshadow on April 10, 2006 06:29 PM
Improving older content may not sell expansions but it would help them keep their subsriber base. Always remember there are 2 Sales in everquest, expansion and subscription.
Comment Posted by: Bunion on April 10, 2006 09:00 PM
If their goal is to sell the next expansion as a stand alone game, they really need to redo the character models if they want it to succeed. Sure it is going to cost a ton of money to redo them, but I don't see any other option if they realy want to draw new players in. Of course I think SOE's main problem is they have 2 games directly competing with each other, EQ and EQ2. Sure for people that have played both the game play is significantly different, but for a person who has never played either I think they will go for EQ2 over EQ1.5.
Sure original EQ has more content than you can shake a stick at, but most every game out there has more than enough content for casual or average gamers. So I am not sure what the selling point would be marking it as a stand alone game.
Maybe I am just cynical, I am sure it will sell better than most expansions, but I can't see a huge new influx of players.
Comment Posted by: erz on April 10, 2006 11:31 PM
One thing on the bug-fest that is PoR. Having done several beta tests I'll upfront say a big problem is the testing population on beta - it's mostly fanbois and people with vested interests in being friends with the developers, so instead of deeply testing and or looking for bugs, they look at the content in ways they can praise the developers for their brilliant vision. It's a joke of a gimp community based on EQ's self-proclaimed elite.
Bash the content for bugs, exploits, or deviations from the developer's vision and expect to be told you're playing the wrong game. Fortunately, there are private ways to contact the developers without having to be attacked by the rabid class coorespondants and fanbois. Regardless, much in the same way test center is incompetent, beta outside of raid tuning is a joke.
Comment Posted by: naladini on April 11, 2006 02:47 AM
Loral,
Great to see you again at another FF and Summit.
More pictures to be found @ www.stormhammer.org/fanfaire06
Comment Posted by: Horzek on April 11, 2006 03:57 AM
Level 80? Okay, count me out of the expansion and the game. Fortunately, Vanguard should be out soon. Goodbye forever EQ!
Comment Posted by: Richard Hinson on April 11, 2006 04:22 AM
Loral,
You mention above; "I spent a long time with Grumbuk talking about general pathing issues. SOE is definitely aware of the pathing problems recently and has a fix underway. Pathing issues is Grumbuk's main priority right now."
My question is, did SOE commit to fixing all the pathing issues including those in prior content, or are they again going to act as if the latest expansion is the only content and ignore the past 7 years worth of bugs?
Comment Posted by: wormy on April 11, 2006 06:59 AM
The usual PR stunt - no date on bug fixes and a new, half assed and bug ridden expansion coming soon.
Seems like SOE is fast running out of paying customers, so they need to milk the remaining ones faster.
Game over!
Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on April 11, 2006 07:27 AM
Sunshadow, call it personal opinion if you will, but I don’t think more players would leave due to not-updated old content than they would leave because they are bored of the same old content regardless of facelifts.
Most people actually want something completely new and fresh.
Not to say SOE is not doing this though, look at the last expansions. They have been slowly adding global updates with each. First they started small with simple mob model changes of things like bats and spiders, then they redid Lavastorm as part of an expansion, and now Freeport and Ro, next will be Nektulus (and hopefully also Neriak). They DO want to freshen up the old world, but they cant justify dedicating time to it, so they are calling the small bit of changes part of a big expansion, this way they justify the change to upper management and we get to see a slowly newer and fresher game.
I personally don’t plan to return to the game until I see new models though, and for god's sake, not the EQ2 models (unless they go for the SOGA ones).
Comment Posted by: wiggle on April 11, 2006 09:19 AM
I can understand the reasoning behind not updating every old world zone or city. They simply aren't even used.
What they will most likely do instead is make a new "starting city" in the next expansion where all classes will begin. Factions are long gone in this game. Perhaps, a zone or two every expansion will be redone but no massive overhall.
However, it is long past due to update the models. They always say it will cost money. Well, with a game that is still probably pulling in $50 million a year, they can afford it. Seriously, if you're that committed to improving EQ why wouldn't you fix the one thing that everyone looks at every day they play.
Instead of re-investing into the game, they are simply squeezing maximum profit from minimum expeditures. While this makes good sense to on paper, you have to realize that in a competitve market, people can and will move on from dated material.
I wrote a shareware program about 8 years ago for a niche educational market (ie. always new potential customers). It sold quite well over the years, always very consistant every month. After 5 years though, other products appeared that had improved features, looked better, and where priced similar or cheaper. I had to make the choice to leave as is or spend time and money updating my program.
I chose not to do so and less than 2 years later my sales had dropped to 0. In the end I made the choice because I did want it to die off.
Comment Posted by: Mr F on April 11, 2006 09:51 AM
I would like a guarrantee that we'll get at least a month of each expansion without the next one being unlocked. That would win me over.
Each expansion trivialized much of previous one, I really don't want to see this in fast-foward mode because some guild of self/unemployed slobs plays 18 hours a day.
That is all.
Comment Posted by: barky on April 11, 2006 10:19 AM
A month? I'd like at least 3! Since the progression will be one time only, having everything unlocked fast really would defeat the purpose.
Comment Posted by: concerned1 on April 11, 2006 11:45 AM
everytime i see some thing about attracting new players to eq i think of this : ok say a honest to goodness new customer sees eq1 on the shelf at walmart and decides to buy it instead of new games that offer faster paths to success. that customer thinks(after reading lore and websites) i want to be the best sk in all of eq and have the sk 2.5! well he dosent know a soul on the game and is starting totally fresh.he has 15-20 hours to play a week. what kind of time frame is he looking at to accomplish this? two years? three years? more? and just say eq manages to last 3 more years will 2.5 be worth anything? will 4.5 be out? and what will the level cap be? 100?
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on April 11, 2006 12:36 PM
Some thoughts:
Expansion:
It's either mentioned here or on another site, but this is supposed to be a PoP or Kunark sized expansion. It's also, per another site, not going to be released in the standard time frame but will be released later (standard being 6-month time cycle). I believe I saw this on info from Nanyea at Caster's Realm. So, big expansion, starting city, raised levels, larger time frame release, content both SOLO, GROUP, and RAID for levels 1 to ??. I like it myself, being only a little over a year into EQ myself.
New Player Models:
I want this only for the lag. Personally, I don't think the player models are bad at all. And I'll tell you, my personal opinion is they're not going to change them any time soon. Why? Honestly, do you know how many people on these sites would scream bloody murder because you changed their "avatar" in some way they don't like. People still complain about the Luclin model changes years later. I've seen the older models. They were ugly, but obviously a lot of people liked them. Now you want the developers to change all the race looks, all the class looks, invest a lot of money, and grab up all the flak for it? Ain't going to happen until the models are truly outdated or they find a way of being able to keep ALL sets of models in the game.
Progression server:
I doubt they'll get past Luclin for awhile. Really depends on the makeup of the people who join, but I think the real raiders aren't going to invest a lot of time into old content when they can compete in a bigger world. The casual raider (which I think I'm slowly fitting into that category) isn't going to be rushing through the content at nearly the same pace as everyone thinks. Also, I've read somewhere that this is something they're looking at making more than one of, depending on the popularity. If a lot of people really want to do this, I think they plan on rolling out a few of these, prolly spaced out so that once one gets to Luclin or PoP, they'll put another one up. You have to realize, once they've done it the first time, rolling out a second is just repetition. Again, this will be based on popularity I'm sure.
--Wolfkinder
I reserve the right to be wrong on everything I possibly can be. I reserve the right to be human.....
Comment Posted by: Loral on April 11, 2006 12:37 PM
I'm betting a brand new player could be level 70 with lots of AAs and an epic 2.5 in a year to a year and a half depending on how they play. A lot of it has to do with a player getting to level 70 and getting enough AAs to join the top raiding guild on a given server. Once that is done, they have to do the raids and gear up from that. There can only ever be one best SK so that may be impossible, but one can be a high-end raid-geared SK in probably under a year if they play right.
There won't be a level 80 in the next expansion. It was a red herring and I labeled it as such. Level 75 is likely.
No software company would ever commit to fixing every existing bug in a 7 year old codebase. If you think Vanguard will be completely bug free, good luck to you. I don't know the details of Grumbuk's effort and how it will relate to old zones. I know that old zones use a totally different pathing mechanism than newer ones and that the older ones are unlikely to get fixed anytime soon.
Expansion progression on the Progression server will depend on how fast players open up new content. SOE won't guarentee that some hardcore group of folks will clear out the first trigger mobs, but its unlikely it will happen that fast. The players will determine the speed.
Comment Posted by: Loral on April 11, 2006 12:44 PM
"It's either mentioned here or on another site, but this is supposed to be a PoP or Kunark sized expansion. It's also, per another site, not going to be released in the standard time frame but will be released later (standard being 6-month time cycle). I believe I saw this on info from Nanyea at Caster's Realm."
This is not my understanding. From what I heard and didn't hear, this new expansion WILL be released in the normal time frame (probably September) and while it will have content for levels 1 through 75 and may have more overall open zones, there won't be as many as there were in Kunark. Instead, zones will support a larger range of levels so you might have a level 1 to 20 newbie zone, a level 20 to 40 mid-level zone, a 40 to 60 zone, and a 60 to 75 high end zone. There will be fewer instances in this upcoming expansion. SOE wants to get more people playing together. We'll have to see how well it works.
Comment Posted by: Vamirez on April 11, 2006 12:50 PM
"...what kind of time frame is he looking at to accomplish this? two years? three years? more? and just say eq manages to last 3 more years will 2.5 be worth anything? will 4.5 be out? and what will the level cap be? 100?"
Actually that is not a problem except in the mind of the guy. While I play, new content is added to the top. The endgame moves farther away, but I don't mind. I keep progressing at the pace I can do and like and am satisfied to know that there will be enough to do and experience for me for years to come.
People who want to "complete" the game in a year didn't really get the idea behind MMORPGs, in my opinion. So much work to reach max level! There being more of the game does not equal work, it equals more content and more fun. If you think its hard work you are doing, annoying work you have to be doing to get to the top quickly, better stop playing.
By the way, leveling from 1 to 70 is much quicker nowadays even for newbies than it used to be. I started with Luclin and it took me 18 months to reach 65. I have some complete newbies in my guild who are in their 50s already after only 3-4 months. Another 2-3 months and they're 70. A new hardcore gamer can reach 70 and some AA even quicker. That should be taken into account, too.
Comment Posted by: Vamirez on April 11, 2006 12:51 PM
Wow, tons of posts appeared while I was writing the above ;-)
Comment Posted by: Loral on April 11, 2006 01:48 PM
I just got some further clarification on the size of the expansion - it will likely be bigger than the standard 6 to 7 static zones but will contain fewer instances than older expansions. The expansion will help focus groups of players, especially at the low-end, in the same areas to make grouping a little easier. The expansion will also be built around quests with better rewards for better effort.
No word on the date but I know better than to discount anything written by Nanyea. We'll have to see.
Comment Posted by: CONCERNED1 on April 11, 2006 07:02 PM
so you are trying to tell me that someone who never played eq and has no one to help them out AND has casual time to play is going to have anguish gear and 2.5 in under a year?i know people that have played eq for 3 years and got in a anguish guild a year ago and still dont have 2.5. the point im trying to get you to see is that real new players on limited time arent not gonna take to eq. and that just happens to be the part of the market that is booming. its not even so much that a person dosent "fit" with eq anymore;its that eq dosent "fit" the market.
Comment Posted by: Naladini on April 11, 2006 07:32 PM
Actually, the way I understood the talk about the expansion, part of the goal behind all of this new content is to revitalize the lower level game, bringing with it many of the features that we've seen added only at the highest end of the game. This will provide a more enjoyable play experience for new people, and should be much more "casual" friendly.
The real question isn't about charging into the end game, that ability has existed for a while for those with the proper time to spend. The real question focuses more on actually delivering an enjoyable experience for people, allowing them to solo or group, while providing a bit more direction through the levelling process. Most people who like MMO's seem to like being around others (keep in mind, this doesn't necessarily mean grouping), to see other groups while adventuring, to see zone chatter, these are the things that many of us grew up with that are largely absent from the current low level game. Offering the directed focus with the new expansion should provide a bit more of that for new players.
Secondly, allowing people to do more with less time, so they can do more fun things when they happen to have a larger block of playtime available is a big part of the equation for a game that will draw in players.
If that means a new hard core gamer can grind out to level 70 in 10 days instead of 14, or whatever the math happens to be, so be it. The focus has to be on the experience that the non-hardcore gamer will go through.
It sure sounded at the summit like that is what the team is looking at.
Comment Posted by: Cognac on April 11, 2006 08:29 PM
Thoughts on new players.
Everquest has the best spell array I've seen in any game I've played so far. I simply love the class variations and spell types in this game.
I find myself starting up my EQ account yet again for the umpteenth time. Simply for the Necro, Mage, Enchanter classes. It's a breath of fresh air to play a fully fleshed out real class.
The jaw breaking problem EQ faces I think is the graphics. If they could redo the old world zones, and heavily advertise the game for its fleshed out classes and spells, they could generate new players to the game. There is a lot in EQ which is still better than new games comming out. It's the graphic look that hurts the most.
Comment Posted by: Damiyon on April 12, 2006 08:55 AM
I agree with Cognac, and I think Vanguard will be the nail on the coffin. That game is so beautiful and they're gearing it specifically for EQ players (former eq dev's working on it). I really do wish the oldworld zones would just get touched up. I can live with the character models, even tho everyone pretty much looks the same. I'm not even talking about graphics as good as, say Oblivian (which are unreal). Just make original zones, kunrak, and velious esp look more like North Ro.
Comment Posted by: Faladarea on April 12, 2006 09:24 AM
Well they made Castle Mistmoor a level 60+ zone and then reverted it back to 25+ with no issues.
I think that Paw and CT at their current levels would be rediculous for level 50 players in old world gear and no AAs. No way anyone would go to these zones.
Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on April 12, 2006 09:44 AM
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so you are trying to tell me that someone who never played eq and has no one to help them out AND has casual time to play is going to have anguish gear and 2.5 in under a year?
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If he has not made friends in the first 30 days he should really forget about it, but you got to be a very anti-social person not to make friends in that time frame.
So off course he will need help along the way, but the help will come from the friends he will make. If he wishes to go the solitary anti social way and label that casual, then its unlikely he will get far in ANY mmo out there. Yea he may level cap in some games, but get the epics and stuff of those games? Highly unlikely without the help that comes from making friends.
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i know people that have played eq for 3 years and got in a anguish guild a year ago and still dont have 2.5.
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And how many of them have ACTUALY tried to get it?
I keep seeing many people in many games that say they cant do X or Y, but truth be told, other than setting an lfg flag with a search comment saying what they want to do, they have never been truly proactive about it, or simply get lured away by xp groups that seem more immediately rewarding to their subconscious.
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the point im trying to get you to see is that real new players on limited time arent not gonna take to eq.
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But what is limited time? 1 hour? 2 hours? Yesterday I realized how extreme MMOs have gone to please the "casual gamer". Now most MMOs have some sort of content that can be done in 30 minutes. Funny thing is, these players tend to love console games where you don’t see a safe point for an hour or two.
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and that just happens to be the part of the market that is booming. its not even so much that a person dosent "fit" with eq anymore;its that eq dosent "fit" the market.
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I think you are exaggerating, but then again, that’s my personal opinion. Only reason the game cant penetrate to the "new generation" are the outdated graphics and the anti-noob death penalties.
Comment Posted by: Mr F. on April 12, 2006 09:46 AM
Yeah, Vanguard will shrink EQ down even more than WoW/EQ2 did. It's basically all the good bits from EQ EQ in an alternate universe. You can stick your head in the sand and pretend players won't leave for this game, but thats what they said before.
EQ is fighting the long defeat.
Comment Posted by: wiggle on April 12, 2006 10:38 AM
This new expansion needs to somehow bring the spark of adventure and excitement back to the game.
Instances and monster missions are (have imo) destroying the game. It gives a total disconnect to the game you're playing. A game with 100's of zones and the majority are now empty as people sit outside an instance.
Can the new expansion bring back the variety of Befallen, Najena, Paw, Aviak village, Crystal Caverns, Velk, Seb, Guk, Dalnir, Giant Fort, Karnor, etc, etc. This game had so much depth it and it felt right. Now it's a souless husk and people complain if they have to cross two zones lines to get anywhere.
Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on April 12, 2006 11:01 AM
If you ask me, instanced zones should be exclusively for large groups.
Outdoor zones should be for solo content.
Did you know that City of Heroes actually spawns enemies for you? Enemies never trully roam the world, they get spawned out of your sight (behind corners, and so) as you are moving, and the spawns tend to be based on your level, your team size, and the "threat" level of the area, with, off course, the level range of the zones as min and max caps.
This should be how outdoor zones in EQ should work, giving the small team open areas to move arround and meet people, while the lage team, that cant posible get larger, an intrussion free enviroment and real dungeon crawls.
Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on April 12, 2006 04:32 PM
Yes Wiggle !!
Those early zones were not only a challenge to explore without a map, but extremely creative with their collection of invisible walls and bridges, spawned cycles, slippery surfaces, fatal falls and faction requirements. The Velious zones are still beautiful with their icy brightness and colorful dragons. Even the starting cities were complex and detailed ... I'm always happy that I grew up in Kelethin when I have to navigate a tricky path!!
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on April 12, 2006 06:48 PM
"Yeah, Vanguard will shrink EQ down even more than WoW/EQ2 did. It's basically all the good bits from EQ EQ in an alternate universe. You can stick your head in the sand and pretend players won't leave for this game, but thats what they said before.
EQ is fighting the long defeat."
Well, I guess it's good that the EQ development team keeps looking at ways to bring in New players then. WoW brought in a slew of people who had never played an online game before. There's always newbies growing up and starting to play.
The bad thing is Vanguard if it relies on the old EQ system is prolly going to have a smaller group than EQ joining it. Sure, a lot of old-timers may give it a try, but if it's difficulty is akin to the old EQ system, they won't be able to touch the WoW crowd. People like to level and level fast. Between Dungeons and Dragons, EQ, EQ2, WoW, and all the ones I'm forgetting, Vanguard has a lot to live up to. Frankly, aside from EQ players, I wonder if anyone is even paying attention. I sure don't hear a lot of buzz about it on the regular boards compared to Dungeons and Dragons. Whereas Dungeons and Dragons has a well known name, WoW had extremely well known multiplatform games and history behind it, EQ has its lore and longevity and a bunch of expansions under its belt, what does Vanguard have? If I'm at the store, how are they going to interest me? "From the producers of the Ancient EQ system, we bring you...." The people who made EQ years ago now are working on something new? Most people who bring it up seem to be the groups within EQ itself that miss the old system. But the old system is gone and buried. Very few new players want a difficult learning curve, IMHO.
But, heck, we'll see. If it's successful, I still doubt it will be the downfall of EQ. And I HIGHLY doubt it will come close to the popularity of WoW. Of course, who knows, if they have the best graphics artists and the best stories and a combat engine that actually works in a better way.....well, we'll see.
--Wolfkinder
BTW, I love the old zones and rarely play the newer stuff, so honestly I hope they'll do well. I'm just skeptical. I think what a lot of EQ players want and what the rest of the world wants go down separate paths. And I don't think Vanguard can survive just picking off EQ retirees.....
Comment Posted by: Cognac on April 12, 2006 11:28 PM
Difficulty in a game isn't a bad thing. What's more important is that you can progress, dispite the difficulty.
Wow introduced about 4 millioin new players to the genra. A common complaint of Wow is that it's too simple. So I will be claiming that a portion of this number will want to advance to a more challanging game. There are a large number of people who DO want a challange and who enjoy complexity. I'm just one of them.
Difficulty is it's own reward, which is why I find playing Wow simply mind numbing. I've enjoyed it, yes. But now I need a challange again, to stimulate the ol' brain cells again.
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on April 12, 2006 11:38 PM
Mind you, I'm not a leveler. Personally I've been in the 50s for quite awhile now ingame and am not in a rush to join the masses.
Haven't touched WoW, but have heard enough about it. I agree that some people will leave WoW and try something new, something more complex. Again, I think that something would be EQ, EQ2, DDO, or perhaps something completely outside of the Traditional Fantasy setting.
I still don't see many people going from WoW to Vanguard, a relatively unknown product that mainly garners the interest of those that liked the original EQ. And if it's as difficult as the traditional EQ was, ex-WoW players for sure aren't going to stay for long. I think they (Vanguard developers) have a long road to walk, but again I wish them well. Original EQ was brilliant. I just think the masses want something simpler. And in the end, while some of these games are obviously created with a great deal of love, they are created to be profitable.
--Wolfkinder
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on April 12, 2006 11:45 PM
What I get for still marinating thoughts and hitting "Post."
Last thought. I would not be surprised if Progression Server is in response to old-timers who might try Vanguard while the new expansion is geared towards the WoW crowd.
That's the strength of EQ. It can fight wars on several fronts because it has that history behind it. While historically fighting wars on separate fronts at the same time is not the best strategy, in the gaming market it often pays off well. Don't believe me, look at a lil real-time strategy game called Warcraft that decided to flip genres and try to be an online Roleplaying game:)
--Wolfkinder
Comment Posted by: Damiyon on April 13, 2006 03:18 AM
You keep talking about DDO, but why? Every review on this game sucks, and if people like leveling, why would anyone touch DDO? Its also the ugliest mmo that has been released in the past 3 years. It really only appeals to the oldschool DnD players and even then, by level 10 they've done everything that they can do. DDO is just another DAoC. It might bring alot of hype, but it wont keep the numbers that it did at launch, and even for DDO the numbers were really low. The reason Vanguard looks so good is that the graphics look similar to those in Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion. If you factor in the fact that its going to have probally the biggest world ever seen in a MMO, mounts that work as extra storage (or banks), a challenging gameplay system that will probally take away anyone who gets tired of seeing EQ being easier and easier.
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