Further Prophecies and the Everquest Expansion Release Cycle
by Loral on January 16, 2006
First, a look at the news:
The beta for the new expansion began last week, with beta requests succeeding sporatically as players hit the site. Those invited into the beta are sworn to secrecy, not only on what wonders they see but even their attendance within the beta itself. Silence itself becomes a clue.
SOE posted some new information to the Prophecy of Ro website including two videos. One video shows the rebuild of Freeport including all new Freeport militia barracks, a new dock, and the new temple of Marr. The second video shows off some of the new zones in Prophecy. The zones definitely look other-worldly. SOE also announced a rebuild of both Freeport and the Desert of Ro released to everyone, whether you purchase Prophecy or not.
Contrary to the premature complaints on the forums, Prophecy of Ro will include both high-end and mid-level content. The newly revamped Desert of Ro and Freeport zones will offer some new content for lower and mid-level folks while higher-end raiders will find new challenges as well.
Raging Fury was the first to defeat Mistmoore and later, SOE's Kytherea posted an interview with the guild. In response to raid-tuning criticism, Prathun, the designer of the Demiplane of Blood and many of the high-end raids since Gates, talked about the tuning of the Demiplane:
"The Demi-Plane of Blood was completed, start to finish, without any retuning. That's nine end-game raids in three tiers that didn't need developer spying, gradually reducing the toughness, or removing hard features. Guilds that beat Redfang, Zi-Thuuli, Hatchet, Sisters, Devlin, Tris, Roley, the Performer, and Mayong killed version 1.0. Every time."
The guild Assent released a video of their journey through the Depths of Darkhollow including a couple of clips of Mayong Mistmoore, the official end-boss of Depths. Mayong's death resulted in a new bit of lore leading to the Prophecy of Ro.
Chris Lena, producer of Everquest, recently gave an interview on EQPlayers. Along with his Neil-Gaiman-like picture, Chris gave an excellent Kurt-Vonniguty answer to the question "How did you choose [Raghnell's] name?"
"I didn't – it was fated since before the dawn of humankind. So it is written and so it shall be."
Everquest Titanium, the $20 Everquest package including the base game, all ten expansions, and a 30 day subscription, has been released. This is the easiest it's ever been to get into EQ.
Now on to our hot topic of the day: The Everquest Expansion Release Cycle.
Ever since the release of Planes of Power, a massive expansion with nearly a year-long development cycle, SOE released expansions every six months. Only once, after the release of Gates of Discord, was an expansion delayed, and then it was only for a month. Every other expansion; Ykesha, LDON, Omens, Dragons, Depths, and now Prophecy; has come out or will come out every six months.
Every time a new expansion is released the boards light up with angry posts. Most of these are from the "fix bugs" category (don't worry, I don't plan to gloss over this one so easily) but some dig into other thoughts and ideas.
Here are a few reasons people get upset about the six-month development cycle: bugs from the previous expansion, class balance issues, haven't finished a lot of the content in previous expansion yet, one's raiding guild hasn't defeated the last boss yet, $30 every six months on top of $15 a month is a lot of money, the next expansion will come out buggy, one just got to a certain power level and doesn't want to have to get to a next one. All of these are valid issues and all deserve a deeper look.
I have often dismissed the "fix bugs" reason mostly because those bringing it up don't follow through with a list of the bugs they want fixed. Often the bugs turn out to be class balance problems - not real bugs, but there ARE real bugs that need to be addressed. The best thing we can do is articulate this list and bring it up when we can instead of using a more generic call for bug fixing.
Whether or not these bugs would be fixed with a different release cycle is unknown. We can assume, from the outside, that by delaying an expansion SOE could fix bugs instead of building new content, but given the unknown economic model, we can't say whether or not they'd have to cut back on the number of people on the developers team to make up for the lack of expansion money coming in. Those bugs might last just as long whether there is a new expansion every six months or every year. That doesn't mean bugs shouldn't be fixed, though. It means we need to do our best to bring them to the attention of the developers and watch their progress ourselves.
Content progression is another big argument against the six-month development cycle. A lot of raiders aren't able to finish the raid content in a new expansion before the next expansion comes out. There is a careful balance between too much and too little raid content, it seems, and while some powerful guilds will have farmed the top encounters for months - others struggle to get past raid encounters from expansions long past.
The situation doesn't improve for single-group hunters. There's often a lot of content unused by single-group hunters. Some go immediately to newer and more rewarding content in newer expansions while some stay in the older hunting areas where they know exactly what to expect. Many players who rely on pickup groups for progression have to move where the bulk of the players go - whether it is to new expansions or staying in old ones.
Can there be too much content? Can't groups simply pick the areas they want to go, picking through the vast quantities of possibilities in search of the most fun and rewarding ones? A lot of these problems require a different train of thought. Everquest isn't a game with an ending (one of the reasons I hate the term "end-game"). Very very few ever hit every single major encounter in the game. Accepting that many of us will never exhaust an expansion would help us more enjoy the content we do face. At that point it becomes a question of whether or not we get our money's worth from each expansion.
Is $30 every six months for a new expansion worth it? It's up to each of us to decide. No one forces us to buy a new expansion, though the drive of the other players makes the desire for new expansions different from single-player game expansions. Ultimately, however, we vote with our dollar. If the features and content aren't enough to interest us, we shouldn't buy it. Most of the time, however, the features and content are enough to get us interested. Compared to the $50 to $60 for single-player games, $30 for an expansion in which we may spend hundreds of hours is not a bad deal. It's always important to remember that our true power in this game is our wallets. If it's not what we want or we don't want it yet because we haven't finished the last one, we shouldn't buy it.
World of Warcraft changed the face of massive online games in many ways. One element that may have led to its success is the sheer amount of polish. It plays well and it plays clean. There are bugs but they're hard to find and while other games may have one struggling to move around an interface, Warcraft builds a seamless world around you. Blizzard is also spending up to two years of development time on their first new expansion. Likely it will be as polished as the initial game. Already they have people betatesting it, over six months from the release. There is something to be said for taking that sort of time to clean up a product.
Is six months too short? That's a hard question to answer. We cannot say for sure that we would receive better products or better support if the cycle increased. We simply do not know the full economics of SOE's business to say for sure how things will come out. Before the days of Planes of Power they had much longer development cycles but bugs still existed. They aren't worse today than they were back then. Content still had to be tuned and retuned.
Personally, I always look forward to the newer expansions. I love seeing this world grow. I like having vast amounts of content from which to pick and choose. I like growing in power and seeing new places. I always fondly remember my first days in a new expansion. There are no expansions where I feel like I didn't get my $30 worth. Sure, I get vexed when I think about Dragons and realize that most of my time there was in Creator missions. Sure, I'm mad at the sheer amount of difficult or locked content in Gates. I still spent many many hours, hours where I was highly entertained, in those expansions.
This topic has many facets and many of them, the business ones, are unknown to us. As players we can do our best to tell SOE what we want, what we want fixed, show them what we are willing to pay for, and show them what we are not. It isn't our responsibility to tell them how to run their business. It is our job to tell them and show them what we desire.
Loral Ciriclight
16 January 2006
loral@loralciriclight.com
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on January 16, 2006 02:19 PM
/agree
A very interesting and in-depth assessment of the 6-month development cycle. I personally don't think a game can get too big. I play very little of the new content, but I like knowing it's there, hearing people talk about it, and knowing that someday I'll have those areas to hit as well.
-Wolfkinder
Comment Posted by: Aarkan on January 16, 2006 04:48 PM
The thing that bugs me is that on older expansions it's very difficult to find groups and stuff. I haven't done anything in Gates, Omens, Dragons or Darkhollow past the monster missions. My 2nd favorite expansion, LDoN, is completely empty and worthless and Luclin and Velious are gimpy exp.
Meh, I know I'm just not looking hard enough.
Comment Posted by: xsikal on January 16, 2006 07:11 PM
I do think a game can get too big, and I think EQ has reached that point (indeed, reached it a while ago), as is clear by the huge numbers of empty zones. I know tons of people (casuals, mostly, since that is what I am), that have not been beyond inkttua (sp?) in GoD, done any MPG trials in OOW, seen even a quarter of the missions (let alone the progression events) in DoN or even xp'd in DoD, (most people have at least seen the zones thanks to the slipgear quest and the goblin rogue shroud). While part of that is no doubt due to people's unwillingness to try new things, it's also a result of the fact that there are already AMPLE options for xp, and the perception of many of the newer areas is that they require gear that can only be acquired through raids or hundreds if DoN missions (the option most casuals seem to pursue).
However, having too much content is not a 'problem' that is easily solved, particularly given that the MMO genre has basically solidified around a strategy of releasing expansions to attract new players, increase profits, and slow the attrition of existing players.
As a result, I don't have any suggestions, simply a growing feeling that there is already too much (unused) content, and that a new expansion every six months is exacerbating the problem. Of the new expansion, I am far more interested in the FP and Desert of Ro revamps (which, incidentally, do not require me to buy the expansion), than I am about new zones that will just continue to extend what is meant by 'high end.'
So... not a very constructive post, for sure, but I felt like offering my own entirely subjective feelings on the matter anyway.
Comment Posted by: Horzek on January 16, 2006 07:13 PM
Today I purchased the new Titanium version thinking I would reactivate an account I had been missing. When I went to activate the registration the web page somehow took me directly to the spot where the registration is to be entered in and so I did so. Once I had completed typing in the code I was taken back to customer information and to my dismay the account name was not the one I had logged into the game as but instead it had been switched to the last name I used when I logged into the account site.
What this means is that I have now registered the Titanium to my existing and fully expansion registered account. There was no way at all for me to avoid this since the account name weas not posted on the actual activation page.
I am now informed by SOE via their on line chat that once an account is registered it is impossible to be changed. I interpret this to mean they are completely unconcerned with customer service even though the problem was cuased because of a bug in the way their registration software is set up.
I had hoped to begin playing the other account again but now I am out the cost of the new package and I have a nicely decorated box of cd frisbees. They may make good games but when it comes to customer service they really are taking a huge backwards step. Perhaps they need to be added to the Clark Howard List of Customer NO Service organizations.
sorry for the rant, I just dont like getting ripped off.
Horzek
Comment Posted by: Tuppet on January 16, 2006 07:40 PM
Horzek - you need to push a little harder on customer service. there has to be a way to escalate it (throught the proper channels). perhaps they can't modify an existing account's expansions but perhaps they can send you a new key or SOMETHING to alleviate the problem?
do your best and keep communicating with them until some sort of resolution can be agreed upon.
(just don't take it to the SOE boards)
Comment Posted by: Simkin on January 16, 2006 10:07 PM
No, that's exactly SOE's top notch CS at work. I know someone who bought a game card for a friend as a gift so he could play again. He mistakenly activated it under his own fully subscribed account (which uses a CC). They refused to refund the error and transfer it to the other account. And don't give me any bs that they couldn't change it. Of course they could of.
I've also had my own run in with SOE where they decided to lose a customer rather than offer any assistance.
As for the new expansion... I think the expansions past GoD have shown they can push them out every 6 months. They typically look weak until about 2-3 months in when a lot of the answers have been found and in retrospect were worth the price. Of course I still maintain that the vast majority of players do not do most of the content but that is their own decision.
Comment Posted by: Cloud on January 16, 2006 11:03 PM
[ Avoid personal attacks - Loral ]
Comment Posted by: Naladini on January 17, 2006 12:26 AM
Nice write-up Loral.
Are EQ and its community better off with expansions coming out before the community demands it? And why aren't we demanding it?
If you remember back to the days before PoP, there were some pretty strongly worded demands for new content as the previous release was being beaten. Not just from the end-game guild getting tired of farming the same content, but also from the near end-game guilds being cockblocked by said end game guild. ;)
With the advent of instancing and improved encounter designs that have taken place over the past few years, how long would it be before these various community segments would start rallying to ask for another expansion if the cycle were longer?
Remember, the expansions released after PoP, (the most high end focused expansion to that point in time), were very much focused on groups and lower levels (LoY / LDoN). By releasing a more targetted expansion every 6 months, you would still see a strong demand from various player groups asking for more content, groups that didn't receive new content in the latest expansion. Somewhere along the way, the player community noticed this, and groups of players would start claiming to skip expansions, fearing that their playstyle was not receiving "content", only features that may or may not be worth the pricetag of the expansion. SOE heard and responded to this complaint by building some fairly well balanced expansions, providing content for most playstyles, but continuing to maintain the 6 month release cycle that has been present since PoP's release.
So, is it a bad thing that SOE has evolved significantly over the years to better address these player concerns?
The 6 month expansion cycle has been around for a while now, and I believe the reason we're finally seeing complaints about the timeframe is that the expansions are actually providing the type of content we've all asked for. Personally, I prefer what's currently being done much more than the older, more targetted releases.
Comment Posted by: Brumm on January 17, 2006 04:11 AM
The marketing message has not reached me for Prophecy of Ro - I just cannot see any 'wow'-factor that makes it a compelling buy.
Point of fact is that like the majority of players, there is still so much to uncover and experience in the expansions we already have, (and it is all accesable) that it PoR just has no interest for me (first time I can say that about an eq expansion).
That is the big issue with 6-month rolling expansions, it cheapens the eq experience by diluting it rather than by enriching it when the expansions come so close together.
Also, for every player it entices back into the game, it probably also acts as a trigger point for an existing player to make the decision to 'take a break' or try a new game. My guild has lost 2 already unfortunately, citing the expansion release as the trigger for a decision. I can relate to what they are saying.
I so wish that the next expansion focused on restoring the 0-65 game, bringing in fresh blood and building on the work put into the new newbie trial, etc. A rich player experience and not a 2 month character creation process would give mmporg players in other games a reason to play EQ. When people put on their rose-tinted glasses and look back to eq of years past, that is the feeling that they seem to be describing and missing more than anything else.
Comment Posted by: Glormane on January 17, 2006 05:54 AM
I wonder if it says something that WOW are developing their 1st expansion and taking 2 years to release it? You could argue that the expansion schedule of EQ in the early days was similar. Should EQ take a leaf out of WOW's book or is WoW infact just a younger EQ waiting to happen?
I think 6 months is not long enough, not long enough for the average player to get all the important things from an expansion and not long enough to develop good story lines and bug test it. EQ gets alot right, but misses little things that can make the world of difference sometimes.
Raids are becoming more annoying, but the 24-7 raiders seem to be eating them up, I just hope it doesnt alienate others.
Comment Posted by: Sithas on January 17, 2006 12:14 PM
Regarding unused zones....whats the difference if a zone exists and no one uses it versus it not existing at all? So some content is outdated. It happens after 8 years. The content is still there for anyone who does want to go somewhere quiet or for nostalgia. But if you want to group, you know where to go.
I'm sure if the game is around for several more years that zones like Guk, Seb, etc will get a revamp and that will be a good thing. But in the mean time they are still viable places to go. You just have to BYOG.
Comment Posted by: Loral on January 17, 2006 02:48 PM
Except for the personal attack above, these have been some of the best thoughts and discussions I've seen posted to Mobhunter. Keep them coming!
Comment Posted by: Loral on January 17, 2006 04:49 PM
Here's a note from a reader. He approved this note for posting:
Loral,
In your latest news article, you mentioned:
"World of Warcraft changed the face of massive online games in many ways. One element that may have led to its success is the sheer amount of polish. It plays well and it plays clean. There are bugs but they're hard to find and while other games may have one struggling to move around an interface, Warcraft builds a seamless world around you. Blizzard is also spending up to two years of development time on their first new expansion. Likely it will be as polished as the initial game. Already they have people betatesting it, over six months from the release. There is something to be said for taking that sort of time to clean up a product."
While I agree with this statement, and it is true in every sense ... There is more to the picture than just the above.
Over the past year, blizzard has also added lots of new content and functionality to their game. One could argue, as much content/functionality
that a regular expansion would entail, including a total of 8 new zones, lots of new functionality to 3 zones that existed on release, increased functionality/features, and new spells/abilities.
For Functionality, they have revised classes, added new spells/skills to the game. Also, they have added new trade skill recipes, item types, items, monster types, quests, rewards, battle grounds & pvp honor system, progression types, factions, faction rewards, lore, and more. Dynamic world changing quest (1 so far) for the whole server and every level to participate in. Holiday events, and regular monthly and yearly events
players of all levels can participate in (traveling faire 1/month.
Children’s week 1/year - ect). Two looking for group tools.
As for content: they’ve added one outdoor top level zone to the game. Added cities/quests to two mid-level (40-50) zones. Added over one hundred new quests (probably a lot more). Two indoor five man dungeons (one mid-level 40-50, one top level 60). Three indoor dungeons for the raid environment (two 40 man raid level for highest level of achievement, one 20man- for lvl
60 mid-level achievement). Three new battle grounds zones (PVP arenas, with goals. 40man war, 15man king of the hill style, and 10man capture the flag). 6 new outdoor raid bosses for 20-40 people. 4 new summonable outdoor raid bosses for 20-40 people.
Also, they’ve introduced new methods of players gaining top level equipment for non-raiders. You can now gain epic level 60 gear from difficult but
doable class quests, dungeons, completing faction, PVPing, tradeskilling, farming/grinding for gold, buying a random drop bind on equip item, and
completing quests open to all players. A non-raider has the opportunity to be every bit as powerful as a raider – something I haven't experienced yet in any MMO to date.
I understand this is an everquest site, and that you cannot focus on other games too often. However, I wanted to point out just how high the bar has been raised (in the eyes of WoW players at least) by blizzard. Also, please note: All of the above listed content was added without reducing the usage of older zones as was the case with the release of velious and kunark. Also, note, this game has a lot of replayability (something most other MMOs lack).
It's not uncommon to find someone with two or more top level (lvl 60) chars. For example, I myself have restarted on five different servers (Three PVP, two PVE), and have four level 60s. I also usually play with the same group of 7-10 people during my playtime regardless of which char I’m playing.
Maybe Sony could learn a few lessons from Blizzard in these regards. I am however, of the belief that Everquest is past its time for redemption. The
system is too slow, and the world has too much history. Adding more areas and newer gear isn’t all about raising the hp caps and damage caps of
monsters.
For this, I will take an example from WoW: Dire Maul. The goal in the north wing of dire maul, is to get through to the end boss of the zone, while
specifically avoiding the deaths of several boss mobs that are in your way. This is called a 'tribute' run, where you kill the ogre king. If the king dies, you become king for the time you spend in the zone, and every boss you passed up in killing brings you a better item, than he would have otherwise dropped by being killed. Avoiding these bosses however is definitely more difficult than killing them.
One might say that this game has remained healthy for a year without an expansion. However, I'd argue that an expansion was released over the course of the year, which was a large contributor to keeping the game healthy and active.
*** Here's my response ***
I do think SOE brings a fair amount of the changes you mention. We receive new free zones with each expansion including Lavastorm, Nedaria's Landing, Nektulos, and upcoming Freeport and Ro. There are a bunch of new missions and encounters added after expansion releases including four monster missions released after Depths came out and about eight new missions after Dragons. New spells, items, and quests are added continually. Some are fixes but some are entirely new content.
I'm not saying its the same amount that WOW releases but over the same time period I think EQ has received a lot of similar updates.
Comment Posted by: Phrank on January 17, 2006 05:38 PM
"I'm not saying its the same amount that WOW releases but over the same time period I think EQ has received a lot of similar updates."
and all for the low price of how much? WoW did it for free, SoE charged for it. I guess you totally missed the point of the quoted message. Typical.
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on January 17, 2006 06:06 PM
"and all for the low price of how much? WoW did it for free, SoE charged for it. I guess you totally missed the point of the quoted message. Typical."
Loral isn't the one missing the point here. The things he mentioned above were added by SOE free between expansions.
Comment Posted by: Cedor on January 17, 2006 07:21 PM
I'll start off the bug list. Starting with DoDH, Steadfast Servants run out of mana early and stop casting heals 15-20 minutes into their 30 minute life. Problem acknowledged by devs but still not fixed.
Comment Posted by: Naladini on January 18, 2006 12:58 AM
" Also, note, this game has a lot of replayability (something most other MMOs lack)."
Actually, most MMO's have very solid replayability in their early days, EverQuest was no exception to this. As the proverbial mountain gets higher with additional levels / gear, you start to see people shy away from rolling up new characters because the distance becomes to great (assuming their target is the ever elusive end-game for these alts).
Comment Posted by: Skuz on January 18, 2006 06:03 AM
I think the distance between a new starter to everquest & the High end is vast, the low end of the game is still enjoyable....IF you can find enough people to get a group going, since PoP it has been getting harder & harder to find people to group with at these low levels.
I think it is time to re-evaluate the low end of the game, Monster missions offered a means for lower players to group up with their higher levelled friends & offered very good xp rates, the problem is that you do not learn your class very well (although you do gain an insight into how other classes operate * i do think that counts for something) and the other big problem is that your skills will be very very far behind & poorly developed.
I think the low end of the game needs looking at in terms of offering gamers at those levels solo routes of play, be it missions, tasks, quests that enable fast progression but also fast learning & skill raises, the tutorial was great, but to face realities at the lower end if you cannot solo most of the time you are pretty much stuffed, in order to keep people coming into the game (and staying here) there needs to be a fairly quick progress through there, sure the old zones are fun, but the biggest part of the fun in eq is the fun you get with other people, there are too few people around at the lower levels for it to be fun, diehards can argue all they like about ( man it took me years to get to level 50 , why should these noobs get an easier ride) but the game is so far removed from what it used to be, i feel this is just another evolution that is needed to keep the game healthy.
I like the 6 monthly release cycle (well 5 & 7 month is more accurate)& I am looking forward to seeing what PoR can offer ( i am sceptical about it's size though ) but I think SoE really do need to get a "big picture" view on the whole game & how to adapt that big picture to todays audience & still remain loyal to its longtime supporters, I think big changes are still eeded to address that.
Comment Posted by: mac173 on January 18, 2006 09:40 AM
"I do think SOE brings a fair amount of the changes you mention. We receive new free zones with each expansion including Lavastorm, Nedaria's Landing, Nektulos, and upcoming Freeport and Ro. There are a bunch of new missions and encounters added after expansion releases including four monster missions released after Depths came out and about eight new missions after Dragons. New spells, items, and quests are added continually. Some are fixes but some are entirely new content."
First off, the zones you call "new" are NOT new, they are revamped. WoW added NEW zones that had not existed before, and that is a big difference.
Also I think it is significant that most of the new content and functionality is tied to an expansion. Yes, they added new monster missions, but you still could not use them unless you had bought DoN.Four new missions after Depths, but useless to you unless you had bought the expansion. Nothing free about that. The great majority of "new" zones and features are a result of buying the new expansions.
I myself have 2 accounts that are up to date on all the expansions to date. NO characters I have, including my level 65 main, have used the content in most of the expansions past PoP. GoD is beyond my guild, few of us are keyed for ANY of the planes, and we are not geared enough for the majority of OOW. So the only reason I have those expansions..............the features. In order to have a Guild Hall, you have to buy an expansion. In order to use Shrouds, you have to buy an expansion. In order to get and use Augments, you have to buy an expansion.
I disagree with your assesment, Loral. I think that very little has been added that is not dependant on haveing bought the previous expansions, and that the lack of features just keeps piling up, so that if you are not buying the expansions as they come out, you are seriously lacking in playability.
Give it a try. Go install EQ on a machine with everything up to PoP, but nothing else, and tell me how much fun it is without all those "free" features.
Yes, they have just released another all encompasing package. Good for them. This was a marketing decision, because the individual expansions were not selling, and research showed that people would not spend hundreds of dollars to catch up, so DING! We get Titanium.
WoW, on the other hand, added all this new functionality and content at NO cost or obligation to the subscriber.
You and others have said before, vote with your wallet. Well, having 4 times the subscribers kinda indicates that a clear majority of MMO players like the way Blizzard does it over the way SoE does it.
Comment Posted by: Glamdrigg on January 18, 2006 09:46 AM
Low end game? Is there such a thing?.. I tried playing an alt in his 30s the other day and there was no one on.. prime time play ... in that level on Fennin Ro. Meanwhile, to address expansions coming out quicker then players can burn them up... I know a lot of people on our server who haven't even maxed out their LDON stone, gotten flagged for POP, let alone finished DON prog and DODH content. This lagging behind is not a "they choose not to do the content" thing either. A lot of players cant keep up with the pace of other hard players, and when the new expansions come out everyone seems to move on to this new content, or to the new gimick in the new content. If one wishes to revive old content revamp old zones and for god sake let go of the dam flaggs already. How long has POP been out? The flags kept that content viable long enough for SOE to get out its next expansion. However, now the flagging isn't extending the life of that old content, but rather is killing it for those who would like to experience it. Things like that at this point are ridiculous: Heres an idea take lvl caps off Naggy raid etc. Old raiders might scream: "hey we did it the hard way," but Hey there were people there to play with you at the time too. And you got to be the first to burn through that content and rule over our realm etc bow bow.
I dont want to come off as not liking new expansions: really... keep em coming... but revamp this old content for the players left behind in the wake.. these are the players you are going to lose. They are the one left in limbo, unable to touch the old content for archaic flags and progression that they dont have the numbers to complete it with, and unable to touch the new content for lacking the gear etc from not doing the old content.
I hope I made sense here.
Ty
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on January 18, 2006 11:49 AM
One of the problems with comparing EQ and WoW is that EQ is 7 years old. WoW is in many ways still in its infancy. I'll reserve opinions on WoW until it's 7 years old and see how well the game develops and how well it keeps its subscribers base at that time.
There's no argument that WoW has far more subscribers than EQ. The question becomes where the heck did they all come from. I think it's like 5 million now or something; right? Well, I don't think 5 million people canceled their EQ accounts and joined WoW, so where did all these players come from?
I assume some if not many are entirely new to MMOs. My assumption is WoW broke the genre barriers and pulled people in from its Diablo and Warcraft and Starcraft series of games. EXTREMELY popular games. In fact, I've played them all (haven't finished them all:) ) Blizzard has done extremely well in its run of more traditional games. For those of you who haven't played them, Starcraft was one of the games contending against EQ for the star a few months back. All of their games have garnered many awards and are considered top games for their genres. For those who don't realize it, MMOs are money-making machines, but they are not the most popular games out there. In fact, until WoW, I would have said they were a minority of the gaming market.
I feel, and I could be wrong, that WoW broke the barrier of getting people who would normally not play an MMO to pick one up, give it a try, and say, "Damn, this is cool." Now, I'm not bashing WoW. I haven't played the game. From what I hear, it is an excellent game, and that's why they've kept those subscribers. But they didn't get those subscribers, in my opinion, because EQ messed up. It's just that EQ has no real brand name recognition outside of itself. In other words, if you don't play MMOs, you ain't gonna be hearing much about EQ.
If you read the reviews when EQ first came out, it was considered a masterpiece. Everyone loved it. There were few complaints because they had created something pretty much totally new, an expansive world in 3D with thousands upon thousands of people to interact with -- REAL people. Now people complain about EQ being too big. Well, I'm fairly sure that if they didn't have expansions at a decent clip people would leave the game. While there's a large group of people who don't get to that content before more comes out (me included), there's also a fairly large group that does love to play new content as it comes out. These are the people who without new content would become bored and wander away.
WoW also has excellent reviews. I do not wish it ill in any sense. I think WoW has raised the bar for all MMOs, and I appreciate it sincerely for that. Some of the great storylines we have going on now (have you read the updated site on Prophecy yet:) They're uncovering the city of the Desert Elves) I feel are a direct result of competing against WoW in my humble opinion. But WoW is very young in its game life. People talk about how fun it is to raise one character and then to flip to another one. That's because it's NEW to do in that game. People did the same thing in the old days of EQ, and had the same passion about it. One of the reasons we get so many classic server threads I'm guessing. But WoW will have to grow like any other MMO or it will die. And as it grows, however its development cycle goes, there will become a greater and greater gap. And if there's not, then I will take my hat off to them again and say in all honesty, "They really handled aging better than EQ."
WoW also has a bit of room to add stuff that EQ might not have. With a larger subscriber base (much larger), that means a lot more revenue. By my extremely rough calculations, 8 times the revenue of EQ (minus expansion costs). That's a lot of cash to spread around for adding new FREE content.
Another thing, if someone can answer this for me, how come the subscriber base of EQ2 is so small. I mean, graphically EQ2 should have been the winner over WoW. Being fairly new to MMOs, it was actually my intention to buy EQ2 at the store, but I went with EQ instead because it seemed to have a lot more content. So, I pose the question: Why did EQ2 do so badly compared to WoW. EQ2 was actually marketed in stores fairly well. The graphics look superior to WoW (more realistic, less cartoony) on the box. So, what pulled so many people to one over the other? Again, I would argue, WoW tapped into a market not before tapped into for MMOs. Otherwise the figures just don't add up. Of the people that left EQ, some went to EQ2, so unless we had 3 million other subscribers I don't know about.......
Lastly, I did go over to the WoW site the other day to read about the expansion. I think it was linked either from here or one of Sony's boards by someone. I notice that they seem to be adding content that EQ has recently added. I just checked again, and now I can't find it. They're raising the level cap to 70, adding socketed items, and I thought I had read before that they were going to have something similar to monster missions where you could step into the past and play the role of historical figures. I know I read it a month ago, but not there now, maybe because of all the MM debate over here:) It seems to me that between EQ and WoW, both sets of subscribers should appreciate that there are two games in the market. As far as I'm concerned, they can beg, borrow, and steal from each other all they want -- it's just making my gaming experience a better one!
Sorry so long. Too much java I suspect:)
-Wolfkinder
Comment Posted by: Dadenianna on January 18, 2006 01:03 PM
This is the second article I've seen today tackling the monetary investment around EQ Classic. I think there are some good thoughts here that I can only hope Smed and crew will start to think about.
-Dade
Oh, the other article is at: http://www.virginworlds.com/index.php?/archives/63-Set-EverQuest-Free.html
Comment Posted by: BooBooBear on January 18, 2006 02:32 PM
Based on the SOE message board, it appear some beta PoR stuff may have gone live with the 1/18 patch. Can't check myself. Apparently, new vendors popped in POK with unlimited tradeskill items and AAs for next to nothing. Of course, the tradeskill items could be sold to other nearby vendors for some big profits. This means tons of AAs, PP and tradeskill components just entered the game on all severs. There are many demands of a full rollback, but the hafling claims this "can't" be done.
It would be nice if SOE put out an official announcement about what the hell happened, and what they plan on doing about the item, PP and AA inflation. One posting even claimed all tradeskill trophies were available for purchase.
I sure hope they plan on doing something beyond taking out the vendors. Even though they were only up for a short time, this will cause major distortion in the game. Anyway, they should put them back in so I can buy my supplies, AAs and make a little cash on the side :) Of course, by the time I return from the real world, the vendors will be gone and prices sky high.
WTF! bad SOE! No biscut.
Comment Posted by: Terry on January 18, 2006 04:25 PM
What !!!!!!! I HAVE to check that vendor business out ASAP !!!
As for the annoying Flagging situation - hated by all - Loral has already said in a recent post that SOE has no plans to modify it any further which, as Glamdrigg said, is blocking half the content and limiting the places those level 70s who are casual players can go.
Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on January 18, 2006 04:35 PM
I saw a system wide message that chars are being rolled back throughout the day due to an error in the patch. I guess that refers to the POK merchants. That was some programming goof !!
Comment Posted by: xsi on January 18, 2006 04:38 PM
They are doing selective rollbacks of people who bought from the bugged merchants, and anyone who traded with them (and so on and so on). Problem (hopefully) solved.
Comment Posted by: Loral on January 18, 2006 04:49 PM
"First off, the zones you call "new" are NOT new, they are revamped. WoW added NEW zones that had not existed before, and that is a big difference."
"Also I think it is significant that most of the new content and functionality is tied to an expansion. Yes, they added new monster missions, but you still could not use them unless you had bought DoN.Four new missions after Depths, but useless to you unless you had bought the expansion. Nothing free about that. The great majority of "new" zones and features are a result of buying the new expansions. "
The Unrest, Qeynos Hills, Befallen and Hate's Fury missions were new and free content. Nedaria's Landing, Forgotten Halls, and Veksar were all free. SOE also does a lot of big events like the fall of Gukta war, the Dreadlands war, the new years events, and the anniversary events. I don't subscribe to the "revamps aren't new content" thought. Lavastorm, Nektulos Forest, and the VP upgrade were certainly new free content.
I also don't buy the idea that free releases after an expansion don't count. WoW doesn't have free content tied to new expansions because....they HAVE no new expansions.
"I myself have 2 accounts that are up to date on all the expansions to date. NO characters I have, including my level 65 main, have used the content in most of the expansions past PoP. GoD is beyond my guild, few of us are keyed for ANY of the planes, and we are not geared enough for the majority of OOW."
There are lots and lots of places to hunt outside of PoP in newer expansions. The only thing that keeps players going to PoP are the flags which lead to zones worse than open zones in newer expansions. The DON missions, Undershore and Stoneroot zones, Bloodfields, Noble's Causeway, Harbinger's Spire, Barindu, Qinimi, Riwwi, all of those are good planar level zones. The guilds that focus on PoP have no one to blame but themselves. There's tons of other stuff to do at that power level.
"Yes, they have just released another all encompassing package. Good for them. This was a marketing decision, because the individual expansions were not selling, and research showed that people would not spend hundreds of dollars to catch up, so DING! We get Titanium."
I wasn't privy to SOE's marketing reports so I don't know that individual expansions weren't selling. I wasn't privy to any research showing that players didn't pay to catch up. I'm not sure how anyone can complain about a full game package that costs $20 and includes ten expansions worth of content.
"WoW, on the other hand, added all this new functionality and content at NO cost or obligation to the subscriber."
Except the cost of the game and the monthly subscription. Do you think WOW won't tie new content to new expansions?
"You and others have said before, vote with your wallet. Well, having 4 times the subscribers kinda indicates that a clear majority of MMO players like the way Blizzard does it over the way SoE does it."
You're numbers are off. It's ten times the number of players according to press releases.
"Low end game? Is there such a thing?.. I tried playing an alt in his 30s the other day and there was no one on.. prime time play ... in that level on Fennin Ro. Meanwhile, to address expansions coming out quicker then players can burn them up... I know a lot of people on our server who haven't even maxed out their LDON stone, gotten flagged for POP, let alone finished DON prog and DODH content."
There is likely to be some excellent new lower level content with the Freeport and Ro rebuilds.
"If one wishes to revive old content revamp old zones and for god sake let go of the dam flaggs already. How long has POP been out? The flags kept that content viable long enough for SOE to get out its next expansion. However, now the flagging isn't extending the life of that old content, but rather is killing it for those who would like to experience it."
Those beating their heads on flags for five year old zones deserve what they get. There is so much profitable non-flagged content these days that there is no reason to focus on PoP anymore. I wish we could just let it go.
"There's no argument that WoW has far more subscribers than EQ. The question becomes where the heck did they all come from. I think it's like 5 million now or something; right? Well, I don't think 5 million people canceled their EQ accounts and joined WoW, so where did all these players come from?"
This is a good question. Some of it is probably manipulation of the numbers. They count things like subscription cards and pure game sales instead of active subscribers. Even if you factor in a margin of error, they still have huge amounts of players. Just look at their number of servers or the fact that WoW has been on the top selling charts for a year. Never underestimate marketing as well. However, all that considered, WoW is a fun, easy to play, low system spec game, that looks, sounds, and plays great. WoW's a great game and that leads to a lot of players.
"Another thing, if someone can answer this for me, how come the subscriber base of EQ2 is so small."
If I had to guess I would say its a mix of marketing issues (EQ vs EQ2 was an admitted mistake a couple of years ago), performance issues (WoW plays on much lower spec machines), and a more complicated game.
"Based on the SOE message board, it appear some beta PoR stuff may have gone live with the 1/18 patch. Can't check myself. Apparently, new vendors popped in POK with unlimited tradeskill items and AAs for next to nothing. Of course, the tradeskill items could be sold to other nearby vendors for some big profits. This means tons of AAs, PP and tradeskill components just entered the game on all severs. There are many demands of a full rollback, but the hafling claims this "can't" be done."
Aparently the whole "Free AAs" thing was a rumor, but I haven't done too much research. The tradeskill thing is going to get fixed. I don't know about a rollback but I don't know how much money flooded into the economy yet or not. EQ has a pretty big economy. It takes a lot to throw it permanently out of wack.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on January 18, 2006 11:15 PM
mac173 wrote:First off, the zones you call "new" are NOT new, they are revamped. WoW added NEW zones that had not existed before, and that is a big difference.
.....
to be concise I will list every zone that came out for free
Zones not afilliated with a expansion
The hole
Plane of Hate
the warrens
stonebrunt mountains
jaggedpine forest
nedarias landing
Solusek C
Zones afiliated/requireing a expansion that were free
The forgotten temple
Veksar
Halls of Betrayal
Graphically reworked zones to date + upcoming expansion
Lavastorm
Nektulos Forest
Freeport
the Deserts of Ro (North/South/Oasis)
Content reworked zones so far
The hole
Lavastorm
Every newbie zone (Newbie armor)
Kithicor forest (Nightime)
Runnyeye
Splitpaw (was redone twice)
Mistmoore (redone then turned back)
Chardok
Howling stone
Temple of Veeshan
Hollowshade Moore
Grimling Forest
Acrylia Caverns
then add ontop of that the huge amount of quests they added for the newbie game (Instances/tasks for the newbie armor in PoK)
the instances of Unrest/Hates Fury/Nektulos Forest/North Qeynos
then also add ontop of that the pure content changes like the huge amount of tradeskill recepies that went in when they put in Protection of the Cabbage.
the yearly halloween events
the yearly fabled event/anniversary events
the events leading upto a expansion that everyone can enjoy to some degree.
and I beleive there are some other stuff I may have missed, but that is just a small list of what I can think up off the top of my head.
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on January 18, 2006 11:26 PM
Don't forget features! Features and misc. stuff you didn't need an expansion for:
The new tradeskill UI (released at GoD launch, but given to everyone.
In game e-mail (Much like above but with DoN)
Item links
The find path
Zoning pets/pets surviving invis.
Limited maps (Maps were available for most starting cities and some newbie zones even for those without Ykesha, you just couldn't edit them.)
Chat channels
Cross server chat
Veteran Rewards (though I guess you could argue that these aren't really free because you have to stay subscribed to get them)
Gloomingdeep (twice)
Armarant already mentioned the original newbie armor additions, but also we musn't forget the new quests in PoK, which included 6 low level missions.
Also, Plane of Knowledge was eventually made free for everyone.
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on January 18, 2006 11:26 PM
I had queried "There's no argument that WoW has far more subscribers than EQ. The question becomes where the heck did they all come from. I think it's like 5 million now or something; right? Well, I don't think 5 million people canceled their EQ accounts and joined WoW, so where did all these players come from?"
Loral's response: "This is a good question. Some of it is probably manipulation of the numbers. They count things like subscription cards and pure game sales instead of active subscribers. Even if you factor in a margin of error, they still have huge amounts of players. Just look at their number of servers or the fact that WoW has been on the top selling charts for a year. Never underestimate marketing as well. However, all that considered, WoW is a fun, easy to play, low system spec game, that looks, sounds, and plays great. WoW's a great game and that leads to a lot of players."
Excerpted from 2002 IGN article regarding Warcraft III: "More than 4.4 million units of the game have been shipped, which is now the fastest-selling PC game ever, surpassing the records set in 2000 and 2001 by two other Blizzard titles, Diablo II and the expansion set, Diablo II: Lord of Destruction, respectively.
Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos is now the seventh Blizzard product not only to sell 1 million copies, but also to reach #1 in U.S. sales. The game, which began shipping on July 3, is topping PC sales charts in North America, Europe and Asia."
http://pc.ign.com/articles/365/365530p1.html
Sorry. All this to repeat what I was trying to say in that awfully long post which is WoW is part of a name brand that is World famous. EQ, alas, is not -- at least not in the same way. The MMO market has really just begun to grow dramatically in the last few years. WoW was poised to jump on that market. EQ was the old horse that one had to DIG through all the other titles on the shelf just to find.
5 million people didn't leave other MMO games to join WoW. And they didn't join because it was such a great game because most couldn't have told you before they joined what a GOOD MMO would be. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that it's a good game. I trust what others have said. And because it's a good game, it will prolly keep those subscribers. What I'm saying is they found a way to tap into the MMO market in a way EQ, Ultima Online, and all the other older MMOs had never thought of.
And this isn't as much a what EQ did wrong post. More of what WoW did right.
Another issue I hadn't brought up but have before is WoW is tapping strongly into a younger market. EQ is perceived by some as an "old" person's game. And, unfortunately, the older crowd is much less likely to talk friends into playing a game than a group of 16, 18, or 25 year olds are.
--Wolfkinder
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on January 18, 2006 11:27 PM
Oh, and don't forget the two times we got new UIs.
Comment Posted by: Loral on January 18, 2006 11:35 PM
And Gloomingdeep, that was free and not just to EQ players but to everyone.
Comment Posted by: Mikak on January 19, 2006 02:20 AM
Why do you keep saying to forget PoP flagging and enjoy other content? Lots still want to see that content, even if you don't. It's a great frustration to those who have put a LOT of time and talent into these flags and NOT be able to complete them.
Comment Posted by: Tony on January 19, 2006 02:32 AM
OK Amarent.
Zones No one uses, free or not.
Jagged Pine, Warrens, Nedaria, Sol C, Halls of Betrayal, Unrest, Hates Fury, North Quenos, Glooming Deep and the two LAME new UI.
So, what's your point?
Comment Posted by: Falwear on January 19, 2006 08:43 AM
I am sorry to point out the Obvious EQ is Dying.
Can it be saved ?
Dont think so maby if SOE rethinks the whole game maby if SOE make servers for players who can actually play together.
Comment Posted by: Loral on January 19, 2006 09:56 AM
"Why do you keep saying to forget PoP flagging and enjoy other content? Lots still want to see that content, even if you don't. It's a great frustration to those who have put a LOT of time and talent into these flags and NOT be able to complete them."
I only say this to people who argue that POP is the only thing they can do. It's not. I'll also say it to anyone who complains about POP flagging. If you don't want to flag, don't flag. There is nothing in POP that you can't get elsewhere.
If people enjoy hunting in PoP, great! If they enjoy the progression through flagging raids, great!
If people are not enjoying it, though, they shouldn't do it. If they hit a wall and can't go further, go somewhere else. Nothing in this game is an investment. If you aren't having fun doing what you're doing right now, go do something else.
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on January 19, 2006 10:41 AM
PoP flagging really isn't much different than Vex Thall or Veeshan's Peak, is it? I mean, aside from being more difficult, they have opened up most of the zones now to everyone except the Elemental and Time. I think SOE's policy is to leave some of these older zones as a challenge for those who want to do the run. Heck, I'm working on Veeshan's Peak access right now, and plan on doing the Luclin shards too. You can't see those zones without going through some work, why should you get to Time or Elementals without doing some?
It's part of the nature of the game. And as said before, there are several ways to get similiar gear. There was a post on the Veteran's forum just yesterday which explained in detail how single groupers can go all the way up through Depths gear without raiding at all. Non-raid gear, of course, no extra clickie stuff. And I'm not going to open the raider versus casual argument:(
I think it's in the spirit of the game to leave some zones locked. There are several zones you need keys and flags for. Aside from the ones I mentioned above, you still have to do the quests to get keys for Charasis and Old Sebilis. I'm sure a few years ago people argued to open these up too, but it does take away from the game IMHO.
--Wolfkinder
Comment Posted by: Teremar on January 19, 2006 12:05 PM
Clearly WoW didn't get its 5 million subscribers by stealing EQ's almost 500,000 peak subscribers (yes, I'm sure these numbers are all "fuzzy" but not off by orders of magnitude). If you played WoW during the first three months or so after release you could tell most of the people around you had never played a MMORPG before.
It's funny though...a year later, now that I've gotten to know people and hang out with the people I've chosen to hang out with, I'm finding that an awful lot of them are EQ veterans. I'm sure the RP server I'm on has more than its share of EQ veterans in general, but we do seem to have a subtly different take on the game, and that causes us to band together.
Much as I complain about SOE's rapid expansion pace, Blizzard's is too slow. Yes, they've added a lot of content since release, but many non-raiders, including my guild, are just plain out of things to do (note that there are no AA's in WoW, so once you hit the level cap the only way to progress is better gear). They've promised to fix that in the expansion, but we don't even have a release date for it yet, and people are quitting "for now" as a result (we'll see how many actually come back). I'm hoping Vivendi notices the large bump in revenue when the expansion comes out and lets Blizzard hire more staff so they can put out expansions on a regular basis. Something like 9-12 months would be a good happy medium between SOE's 6 months and Blizzard's current 14 and counting.
Comment Posted by: mac173 on January 19, 2006 02:42 PM
"The Unrest, Qeynos Hills, Befallen and Hate's Fury missions were new and free content."
But you cannot do them if you do not have DoN, so whats the difference?
"The great majority of "new" zones and features are a result of buying the new expansions."
Like I said, the MAJORITY of new content came with expansions, I didn't say ALL of it did. And BTW, Nedaria's Landing may have been free, but it is basically useless except as a portal to AS.
"WoW doesn't have free content tied to new expansions because....they HAVE no new expansions."
Thanks for making my point for me, Loral. No expansions, so no money for you to spend to get the new content.
"There are lots and lots of places to hunt outside of PoP in newer expansions. The only thing that keeps players going to PoP are the flags which lead to zones worse than open zones in newer expansions. The DON missions, Undershore and Stoneroot zones, Bloodfields, Noble's Causeway, Harbinger's Spire, Barindu, Qinimi, Riwwi, all of those are good planar level zones. The guilds that focus on PoP have no one to blame but themselves. There's tons of other stuff to do at that power level."
Actually, I have used some of those zones. Harbingers Spire has provided a lot of twink gear for my alts. I was expressing myself badly there. I was trying to point out that the rate of expansions comming out was far faster than the rate me and my guildies could keep up with, so it really detracts from the game when the top end is so far ahead, and you feel like you can never get there. Also, the fact that some zones stay locked proves that casual players will forever be held away from parts of the game, no matter HOW far behind you are.
"Except the cost of the game and the monthly subscription. Do you think WOW won't tie new content to new expansions?"
First, you have to buy EQ and pay the monthy subscription, so what is your point? I was talking about the cost of expansions. And yes, I think WoW will tie content to the new expansion, but I believe (my opinion) that they have added more significant content and functionality without cost or obligation than EQ has, making it so far the better value. Also, in the time WoW has been around we have had 4 EQ expansions, and WoW's is not even out yet. A big difference.
"I'm not sure how anyone can complain about a full game package that costs $20 and includes ten expansions worth of content."
I expressed myself badly again. I was not trying to complain about the package, I was trying to say that it was not from the goodness of their hearts, it was a marketing decision. A good one, I think. I am quite glad they did it, as it increases the chance new players will start the game. I wish they had announced it a month earlier, before I restarted my second account and upgraded by 3 expansions, but.........
It sounds like I hate Sony, but I really don't. I LOVE this game, I am hooked on it. I dread the day it closes (not soon, but it cannot go forever). I get passionate about those things I see being done better by other games that SoE does not do, and want to see it done better. My acerbity is fueled by love, not hate.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on January 19, 2006 02:43 PM
tornah wrote:OK Amarent.
Zones No one uses, free or not.
Jagged Pine, Warrens, Nedaria, Sol C, Halls of Betrayal, Unrest, Hates Fury, North Quenos, Glooming Deep and the two LAME new UI.
So, what's your point?
Just because you dont use it doesnt mean others dont, you are thinking too highly of yourself to think that you count as 100 percent of the players opinion.
Comment Posted by: armarant on January 19, 2006 02:45 PM
Mac173 wrote:
"The Unrest, Qeynos Hills, Befallen and Hate's Fury missions were new and free content."
But you cannot do them if you do not have DoN, so whats the difference?
Yes you can do them without the expansion. they were coded so you didnt require the expansions to request the instance as I recall, but it certainly says something about someone who wont spend 20 dollars on a game to get upto date. :)
Comment Posted by: Loral on January 19, 2006 03:31 PM
"The Unrest, Qeynos Hills, Befallen and Hate's Fury missions were new and free content."
"But you cannot do them if you do not have DoN, so whats the difference?"
Armarant is right - those four missions came out between DON and DOD when they were thinking a little bit about monster missions. They're not tied to any expansion and any player can do them. They're one of the few sets of instanced content that anyone can do.
"And yes, I think WoW will tie content to the new expansion, but I believe (my opinion) that they have added more significant content and functionality without cost or obligation than EQ has, making it so far the better value. "
That is a much easier statement to digest. Saying that WoW has added better, more significant content and functionality is a much better argument than saying that SOE released none. I'd still argue that EQ brought out more features that made a big difference to the game for free than Warcraft has although Warcraft included a lot of them on release. These include the LFG tool, chat channels, audio queues, the mail system, and a bunch of others mentioned above.
"Also, in the time WoW has been around we have had 4 EQ expansions, and WoW's is not even out yet."
I think we've had two, no? When did Omens come out? I know a lot of people who wish that the WOW expansion came out faster than it has.
"I expressed myself badly again. I was not trying to complain about the package, I was trying to say that it was not from the goodness of their hearts, it was a marketing decision. A good one, I think. I am quite glad they did it, as it increases the chance new players will start the game. I wish they had announced it a month earlier, before I restarted my second account and upgraded by 3 expansions."
Most of everything EQ does, directly or indirectly, is probably a marketing decision. I'll agree to that. I also wish they had brought out the package in November instead of January. Who releases new products in January? Someone definitely dropped the ball.
Comment Posted by: Blakyce on January 19, 2006 04:12 PM
I don't see the correlation in comparing the expansion schedules of a game that is as old as EQ with most everyone having toons at 70, to a game that had everyone at level 1 a year and a bit ago. I have WOW and EQ. At two expansions a year it is costing us $5 a month for new expansion content which is incredibly cheap. Half the cost of one movie ticket or 5 songs on I-Tunes. I say keep the expansions coming because I have always got way more than my money's worth.
Comment Posted by: Redhenna on January 19, 2006 05:31 PM
"I expressed myself badly again. I was not trying to complain about the package, I was trying to say that it was not from the goodness of their hearts, it was a marketing decision."
Statements like this always confuse me in a way. SoE is a for profit business, and as such, basically all the descisions they make are market driven, not out of the goodness of their hearts. This is as it should be. EQ won't die, utill it is no longer profitable to run.
It's important to realize also that this is true of all MMORPGs. Blizzard does not do what they do out of the goodness of their heards, but they do it with a profit motive, as does any other game company.
Comment Posted by: Sunshadow on January 19, 2006 07:39 PM
As a very casual player the new expansion holds nothing I require. New bank slots would be nice but can live without them. As for new content, there is enough current content I haven't seen that new stuff will just be more zones I haven't been to. SOE really should make the 2nd expansion every year Raid content only. As these are the only guys who look for it or want it. Every one else is struggling with the amount of stuff that already exists.
As for Titanium it really needs to be available as a download for all those with existing accounts that people would like to upgrade. I don't live in the US so will never see a box in the shop.
Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on January 19, 2006 11:09 PM
SUCKAGE !!! rolled back me ... and I haven't done ANY transactions ... LOST 50K and not sure what else.
THANKS SOE
Comment Posted by: Keisa on January 20, 2006 10:07 AM
"SOE really should make the 2nd expansion every year Raid content only. As these are the only guys who look for it or want it. Every one else is struggling with the amount of stuff that already exists."
This is so wrong. Please, don't try to speak for "Every one else." I am definitely not a raider, and I look forward to all the non-raid content in each and every release. Just because you are a "very casual player" does not mean that every other non-raider plays the same game you do. You may not care for the extra content, but there are a lot of non-raid people that do.
SOE has gone to balanced releases that provide content for just about everyone. The upcoming release will include content for raiders, high end non-raiders (such as myself), mid level players, and even revamps of low end zones. There should be content for just about everyone in the release. That is the way it should be.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on January 20, 2006 10:52 AM
Simple economics says SOE wants everyone to buy every expansion. Rest assured that even if they made an expansion focused on raiding they'd find a way to give everyone a reason to buy it--think PoP. Fortunately they've learned from past mistakes and now try to accomplish that goal by including content for everyone, not just gimmicks. This is a good thing.
Comment Posted by: Horzek on January 20, 2006 02:49 PM
Well it looks like I got hit by the roll back as well. I thought I might not have a problem since I had played all day yesterday and not done any vendor transactions. I made one fatal mistake when I went to our guild banker and took out a stack of emeralds for use on our tanks during our evening raids. IT looks like every person in EQ who used their guild banker may have been rolled back.
IN my case I lost my nice new pants, I saved my raid points for weeks and spend them on the plate legs dropped from Tunat in Tacvi. I also lost the new DoN tier 4 flag I completed last night when we took down Yar'Lir. I think I also lost close to 10 aa points in the process.
I have to say that if this is the first thing I get from the new expansion I am for one planning on boycotting SOE and not purchasing the expansion. I am simply amazed at the monumental bone headedness SOE has shown over a few pies.
This is something like cutting off a leg to cure a sore toe.
Comment Posted by: simkin on January 20, 2006 04:36 PM
Once every year or so SOE CS is brought to light. Personally, it shouldn't matter if they slight one person or 10,000 people. You don't run a successful business by spitting in your customers faces when they pay you.
However, I don't expect to see a big change. Most of the people who threaten to boycott the expansion or cancelled their accounts will end up right back in after a week or two. It does take an extra amount of effort to finally say enough is enough.
Comment Posted by: Keisa on January 20, 2006 04:46 PM
"Simple economics says SOE wants everyone to buy every expansion. Rest assured that even if they made an expansion focused on raiding they'd find a way to give everyone a reason to buy it--think PoP. Fortunately they've learned from past mistakes and now try to accomplish that goal by including content for everyone, not just gimmicks. This is a good thing."
Think PoP? Pop, while awesome for the raider was horrid for the non raider. There were very few zones available for hunting in and other than the trials, nearly no activities for non-raiders. At the time, the trials were extremely difficult for non-raiders. It wasn't until they somewhat opened up the zones that things improved. Even GOD had more activities for the non-raider than POP on release.
SOE has done much better with later expansions: OOW, DON, and DOD. All have raid content and single group content.
Keisa
Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on January 20, 2006 06:30 PM
Rumors are that everyone will get double exp until Monday to make up for the roll back ... but that is not much compensation for a lost flag and an awesome pair of pants. I'm sure to petition is useless.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on January 20, 2006 10:21 PM
I completely agree with you Keisa--my reference to PoP was intended as an example of how expansions should NOT be designed.
Comment Posted by: Horzek on January 20, 2006 11:23 PM
I would like to follow up on my earlier message where I mentioned the loss of an account registration due to a bug in the way the key was activated.
My first interaction was on line with customer service via their live session and ended up very unsatisfactory. I was also a bit disappointed when they gave me a phone number which I called and found to be pretty much worthless as far as customer service was concerned.
My second interaction was with them via email sent to their tech suppore / customer service in which I had the opportunity to explain very clearly exactly what had happened and to make my request for rectification of the problem.
This evening I have received an email from SOE customer service and they have agreed to do as I ask and transfer the registry from the incorrect account to the correct one. I felt it only fair to post here in follow up.
It is a bitter sweet note I write now though as I am still a bit hurting from the latest SOE problem and IM hoping I can get my gear and item back that was lost. I can stand the loss of the aa points and make them up quickly enough so that isnt too great an issue. Lets keep some fingers crossed.
Comment Posted by: Horzek on January 21, 2006 03:56 AM
Update: I've been told that I've lost my pants for good. Goodbye EQ, hello WoW.
Comment Posted by: Horzek on January 21, 2006 12:01 PM
For some reason there are those who think it is funny to use other peoples names to mock them. The real and original Horzek does not currently play WoW although there was a time he did and WoW still resides here in an inactive state.
It would be of little value to say much about the character or lack there in of those who name jack for the sake of their tired sense of humor.
The original Horzek is an honorable and decent man who simply enjoys a bit of on line gaming as a past time to an otherwise busy and active life. Should a post arrive here of an unsavory nature, you may be assured it did not come from me.
Please take your ways elsewhere.
Comment Posted by: Loral on January 21, 2006 03:53 PM
I will be posting an editorial on the recent Everquest Rollback of 2006 on Caster's Realm. I may cross-post it here at the same time.
Comment Posted by: boggled on January 22, 2006 09:34 AM
So barely 1% of the playerbase took advantage of the SOE scewed up vendors so the servers weren't brought down and selective rollbacks were done.
Therefore they decided to give the 99% that weren't affected double exp for the weekend. But since the doubple exp wasn't working and people whined, they brought the severs down.
Does that make sense to anyone?
Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on January 22, 2006 01:44 PM
Almost everyone I've talked to took some kind of hit ... and none of them had any direct contact with the bad vendors. The double exp certainly did not do anything to help those who lost flags or valuable items, but it has caused a stampede to the MMs.
There were more than 250 players in HHP last night! At the very least, SOE could make all the MMs equally profitable to spread the players
among them... the zone has been on the point of crashing since the double exp was announced!! Everyone will be level 70 with 600 aa by Tuesday.
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on January 22, 2006 02:04 PM
I would have preferred them nerfing the MMs just for the double experience. It would have been nice to see some of those people doing something other than MMs, but then I'm not particularly pro the MM movement as it stands now. I think it brings out the worst in players, not the best.
BTW, I didn't lose anything during the rollback. Just wanted to say that because listening to the boards everyone and their mother lost some valuable item or flag.
-Wolfkinder
Comment Posted by: Redhenna on January 22, 2006 03:17 PM
"Almost everyone I've talked to took some kind of hit ... and none of them had any direct contact with the bad vendors. "
This strikes me as odd, since my experience has been pretty much the exact opposite. None of my characters where rolled back, of 70 active players in my guild, 3 where rolled back, and most people I talked to reported similar numbers(or lower, one large raid guild had zero people rolled back).
I am not saying you are lying, or mistaken, just that your experience is totally diffferent than mine, which I find odd.
Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on January 22, 2006 04:36 PM
My trader was rolled back (someone contaminated must have bought something from her) .. and I have been watching chats both in active zones and in Bazaar. My guess is that those who got stung are more vocal than those who didn't.
It seems the GMs are having fun running around the HHK zone in killing everyone. Not everyone is amused.
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License. Email Mike at mike@mikeshea.net for more questions or comments.