Interview with Prathun on Everquest Raids
by Loral on December 05, 2005
On my first guild summit nearly two years ago I met a designer and bent his ear as I bent so many with my gushing praise for LDON and my desires for an LDON 2. The kind man nodded and smiled enthusiastically, mentioning their own feelings with the release of LDON and their own desires for a system like that in the future (what became today's mission system). Little did I know I was speaking to the legendary Prathun, Johnathan Caraker, the main raid designer for Everquest since the days of Gates of Discord.
Prathun is the most experienced raid designer in the Massive Online Gaming industry. His Everquest resume includes most of the Epic 1.5 and 2.0 raids, all of the single group and raid trials of the Muramite Proving Grounds, all of the dragon raids in Dragons of Norrath, the design of Dreadspire, and all of the raid encounters in the current peak of high-end raiding, the Demiplane of Blood.
Today we give you a Mobhunter exclusive interview with Prathun on the past, present, and future of raid content in Everquest.
Loral: What sort of decisions go into the design of a raid encounter?
Prathun: It might be easier to ask, "What decisions don't go into the design of raid encounters?" We have choices to make about the lore behind the task, its complexity, the intended difficulty, loot rewards, involvement with the expansion progression, and intended time investment.
While risk and reward decisions are obviously crucial to the creation of a well-balanced raid, lore is an often underestimated aspect of the design. A well-developed character with history and roots in the story of EverQuest is more interesting to pit players against than an entity no one has heard of.
Loral: How have you seen raids and raid design change over the years?
Prathun: I've seen raid design come a long way since original EverQuest. Looking back at the early years of the game, encounters were typically a single mob with a few spell abilities attached. As our scripting language has matured, it's opened up the opportunity to mold some truly unique and interesting events. Raid mobs can change their attributes over the course of the fight, react to the strategies of the players, and even exhibit artificial intelligence that feels almost human.
The Proving Ground Trial of Corruption is a good example of the latter. It pits the raid against NPCs that mimic the behavior of player characters: the warriors can call out for assists, clerics heal those in need, wizards who root players then back away to nuke them, and monks with the ability to feign and mend themselves when brought to low health.
Loral: How have raiders changed in their attitudes and feedback towards raids? How do raiders today compare to the raiders of five years ago?
Prathun: Experience has taught raiders how to deal with the basics of positioning, healing, and adds, so it wouldn't be possible for me to get away with the same kinds of raids that existed five years ago. A big NPC that hits hard and has a few damage AEs isn't going to present any interesting challenge to current raiding organizations. They've all "been there, done that" and could complete that kind of raid blindfolded.
As for the attitudes and feedback part of the question - they haven't changed a bit. :)
Loral: There has been a recent trend since Omens to require more from each individual member of a raid. This has spawned both positive and negative feedback. How do you see this new style of raid design evolving in the future?
Prathun: Oddly enough, I would classify a fun raid versus a poorly designed one by that criteria: does everyone on the raid have something to do? Do all participants have a meaningful role in the event, a reason for being there, and an opportunity to affect the outcome? I want to make sure that everyone at a raid is playing the game, not semi-afk waiting for the chance to bid on loot, so you can expect to see more raids that require attention from all attendees in the future.
The traditional means of accomplishing this goal is to present challenges that play to all classes' strengths. I try to give offtanks something to offtank, crowd controllers mobs to mesmerize or charm, curing classes debuff spells to cure, and so on. The other means of accomplishing the goal is to present generic tasks that are critical to the success of the raid but can be completed by any class. Examples would be having to kite a cursebearer in Inktu`Ta, responding to a gaze from Mata Muram, or being in charge of the moon relic when facing Vule.
Loral: How do you decide what power level to design raids for in a new expansion? When is it appropriate for Anguish or Demiplane of Blood content as opposed to Elemental or Time level content?
Prathun: While there's always been some overlap between expansions, we try to raise the bar and introduce new challenges every expansion, especially when the players gain a significant increase in power via levels, AAs, spells, or gear. The power level decisions touch on raid design, itemization, and expansion progression, so they're hashed out by several key people early in the design process. The intended difficulty of a raid is set in stone long before I ever sit down and start brainstorming the mechanics behind it.
Loral: Raid balancing and retuning seems common these days. Can you explain the problems with tuning raid content before and after the release of an expansion? Why do we always see such radical shifts in raid balance after release?
Prathun: We've discovered that it is near impossible to emulate the circumstances of a Live server environment on Beta. Guilds perform differently when real loot is on the line, have better turnouts on Live than Beta, and they'll conjure up unconventional strategies that aren't attempted when a developer is watching over their shoulder. Beta testing has been invaluable for testing the concept of a raid and ferreting out functionality bugs, but it hasn't been 100% effective in hitting the difficulty bullseye.
I am fairly content with how the Demi-Plane of Blood has turned out. While it has seen tuning changes and will certainly see more in the future, they won't be the dreaded 'radical shifts'.
Loral: How do you determine the number of players a raid should require? How does this effect the design and testing of a raid?
Prathun: Generally speaking, the higher the difficulty level of the encounter, the more players it will require, the more complex the design, and the harder it will be to test. Our established player count for end-game raids is 48-54, eight to nine groups.
A large part of the difficulty of these end-game fights is in maintaining a roster of well-geared and reliable players that are available to tackle the encounters on a regular basis. This doesn't translate well to single-group content. There's no fair way to approximate the coordination of organizing a Demi-Plane raid and apply that same challenge and reward to six people. As for testing, a small event can often be tested by a hodgepodge of assorted players on the Beta server, but a full guild is needed to put an end-game raid to the test. Anything less is a waste of time.
Loral: You mention tying high-end raids to the roots of Everquest history but few of the high-end raid targets are known by anyone other than those who activly raid against them. How do you plan to bring more of the lore of high-end encounters to the rest of the players? For example, in Depths, most any players can see the transformation of Emperor Draygun to a lich in the excellent monster mission "Fall of Illsalin". Do you plan to continue this sort of trend?
Prathun: Absolutely. I'm a big fan of introducing the antagonists early and often, and there are many ways to accomplish this. Tirranun stormed through Lavastorm and screamed at the mortals for daring to trespass in his domain when Dragons of Norrath launched. The major players in Velious were described in stories that were featured in the game's instruction manual. Gorenaire and The Cragbeast Queen were figured prominently in areas where anyone could see them.
The raid encounters in the Demi-Plane of Blood are described by the inhabitants of Dreadspire - you can hear the Wailing Sisters crying near the guest rooms, and the watch often catches a glimpse of Zi-Thuuli off in the distance. The best way to bring the lore to the players is by letting them experience it firsthand, as in the Fall of Illsalin monster mission you mentioned. To Oshran's credit, that mission arc was an amazing bit of storytelling.
Loral: What sorts of things can we expect to see in the future of Everquest's raid content?
Prathun: Without revealing too much, I'd like to point out that there's going to be some familiar faces from EverQuest history making an appearance in the near future!
Loral: Thank you very much for taking the time to speak with us.
Prathun: Thank you for the opportunity!
Comment Posted by: Tolaren on December 5, 2005 09:13 AM
I have to agree that Everquest's raids have continued to improve over the years and remain one of EQ1s most compelling aspects.
It's for this reason I find it really wierd that Everquest has NEVER been marketed as a raiding game. WoW blew the market wide open to the mainstream, most MMOers know what a raid is now. So advertise it guys.
SOE have an excellent game with excellent raid content - stop calling EQ "classic" and do some videos and stuff of "current generation" raid content.
Comment Posted by: wormy on December 5, 2005 09:39 AM
Tolaren, you're right - EQ is strong in raids, that's PvE raids.
It's what makes players return from other games.
Comment Posted by: Tolaren on December 5, 2005 10:02 AM
Raiding is the main reason I came back after playing EQ2 and WoW and not being satisfied by either. Though it's unlikely I'll be raiding as much as I used to. Other reasons include nostalgia, the quality of Depths of Darkhollow; the regular group missions are great. The merged servers are teeming with life, at least AB is.
One thing, if you're reading this Loral, is you haven't written anything about the rumours of a Station Exchange being rolled out to EQ. Back in the old days, you could be sure that Moorgard would pick such a juicy topic to get people's tongues wagging. At least that's what he would have done before he turned to the Dark Side.
Comment Posted by: Skuz on December 5, 2005 12:12 PM
Back when EQ2 was still on the drawing boards i read many people commenting & discussing in which direction they planned to take eq1 & eq2 after the release of eq2 & consequently the other mmo's that have since gone live (WoW for example)
I have seen that since PoP that EQ has developed a very strong raiding game & for me full credit to Prathun & his team for the Imaginative raid encounters they have developed & I hope continue to develop, i tried eq2 for a short time & wow too & i think they are very much catering to the more casual end of the market for people who have less time to play, EQ1 cater's much better to the player who chooses to spend more time on MMo's with a solid amunt of group content, vast amounts of general stuff to do & what I see as some of the very best raid level stuff on the market, keep up the good work.
Comment Posted by: lsdfjsld on December 5, 2005 12:26 PM
Thanks for the insightful interview.
Comment Posted by: Loral on December 5, 2005 01:03 PM
"Everquest has NEVER been marketed as a raiding game."
People like me would blow a gasket of it was advertised as a raiding game. It's a lot more than just a raiding game at the moment but there are a few heavy voices that still argue that SOE has put too much focus on raiding at the high end already. I'm not one of those, but I think those voices would get a lot louder if it looked like SOE said the path of EQ is the path of a raider.
Comment Posted by: xsi on December 5, 2005 04:36 PM
In reading Prathun's EQ resume, I realized I've never done any of it. :P The last raids I participated in were pre-EP PoP.
Interesting interview anyway. It's good to see some of the more interesting aspects of raid encounters slowly make their way into single group encounters (MPG trials, some DoD missions, etc.), even if those still seem to be aimed at single groups consisting primarily of raiders.
Comment Posted by: Loral on December 5, 2005 06:25 PM
"In reading Prathun's EQ resume, I realized I've never done any of it."
Actually, one of the things I talked about at all three summits was about finding more ways to get Prathun's talent out in front of more people. I have it on good authority that we may see a Prathun-enabled monster mission and I expect we will see more, though I have no such data to support the statement.
However, as talented as Prathun is, there are some very talented people who do the missions such as the Jarzarrad the Prophet missions. I hope to do a mission-centric interview in the future =).
Comment Posted by: Eppie on December 5, 2005 06:28 PM
I am all for raids where everyone has a role. I also like raids that are more than just "Corner the big mob and keep a CH chain on the tank". However the recent trend towards highly scripted raids is becoming extreme.
Queen Sendaii is an example. It takes us more than ninety minutes of nonstop fighting to beat this encounter. There are no significant breaks, and no bringing in replacements if someone needs to leave or goes LD.
Here are the steps involved:
1) Twelve spiders spawn. A random number of them can be mezzed (usually about 3). The rest need to be tanked and killed. Some of them mez players. This wave is timed, so if you are good you can have a minute or so to recover. if you are slow then you still have spiders up when...
2) Twelve drachnids spawn. Again, three or four can be mezzed. Some charm, some mez, and some "evade" by warping away. Again, you need to OT while your raid kills them. I hope you have this wave cleared before...
3) Queen Sendaii wakes up and starts wandering around the room, spawning adds. There are six total, but each splits into two, and each of THOSE splits into three. The originals need to be tanked, although the splits can be mezzed. While you are killing these 54 trash mobs, the Queen herself is wandering around the room casting short range AEs, so roughly every 90 seconds your whole raid needs to run to the other side of the room. You have about 45 minutes to clear these 54 adds, which is when...
4) Queen Sendaii wakes up and you can tank her. She has a directional AE (like Rikukkin), meaning that if she looks left, everyone needs to move to her right side because the left side gets nuked. Of course she is meleeing and you need a CH chain on the tank.
5) When she is at 70%, she splits into 4 identical mobs. Only one is casting the directional AE, so that is the real Queen. You have to take the three fake ones to exactly 60% while you take the main one to 40%. If you are off by more than a percent or two, the fake one splits and you have to take THOSE splits to 60%. If you have the percentages correct, she recombines into a single again. Remember that you are doing this while dodging her AEs.
6) When she gets to 25% she starts spawning adds. LOTS of adds. The longer she is alive, the more she spawns. We've had more than 40 adds alive before we managed to kill her. If you manage to burn her to 0% and don't die to all the adds, you win.
You basically need a degree in systems analysis to manage this thing. It makes Vishimtar look like Lady Vox in comparison. And I don't even want to talk about the evil that are tasks that lock as soon as someone zones in.
Comment Posted by: lsdfjsld on December 5, 2005 06:57 PM
"And I don't even want to talk about the evil that are tasks that lock as soon as someone zones in."
That is one of the MOST FRUSTRATING things about leading/managing some of these raids.
Vish does it upon engage.
Queen does it when you zone in.
While other raids do NOT lock until you win or get passed certain points.
There is no consistency.
They all need to lock at approximately the same time or point of no return in the event.
Comment Posted by: Mitcheypoo on December 6, 2005 02:41 AM
I'd like Prathun to actually consider the people who play the game when designing encounters. EQ has gone from adventure and laughs, to military style "do it because it has to be done or we'll lose our spot as top guild."
The above poster was right on par with Queen Sendaii. It's not a fun encounter, it's not enjoyable, the third wave is long and drawn-out. After you get through the hour long "assist the MA or get booted" phase, you're still prime to lose the fight. As a raid leader, I feel my guild members are becoming bored with long and satisfaction-less encounters such as Queen Sendaii. I thought Emperor Draygun was bad clocking in at over an hour, but Sendaii took the cake. If I could say anything to Praythun, and have him listen, I would ask him to move away from his "script for the sake of" fetish, and get back to what's fun.
Losing encounters over and over again is not fun. It's an emotional drain. Having to spend 2+ hours in a single dreary zone fighting the same SCRIPT is not fun. People don't enjoy this encounter. There's a reason for that (well several) starting with its length.
If I could recommend a fix for Sendaii, it would be three-fold: First, the adds in wave three need to be dropped in number. After the first pop, there's really no more challenge, it's just repetitive mundane with a dash of movement. Unfun. Secondly, the encounter should become EASIER the further you progress, not harder. The adds at 25% are just a frustration. If you get her to 25%, you should be able to just finish the encounter. Not have to be punished (and it is punishment) through an hour and a half of waves, and then have to leave the encounter to the chance of the burn at the end. And thirdly, there needs to be a “halfway marker.” Do you remember Sonic the Hedgehog for the Sega Genesis? Those little light posts you flip over when you’re at half level that allow you to come back to that point when you die, something like this needs to be implemented into long fights. Think about the people playing, that’s 54 (assuming there’s no afk list outside) people who are drinking soda, sitting hunched over in their chairs, some with kids, some just home from work in need of food, for TWO hours without a single break. That’s not “fun,” that’s called “a job.” Now, unless you plan to start paying EQ players, you might want to think in breaks. Putting Sendaii in her own room would have this effect. Get past the waves, and any point that you die on from there on out, you can recover and start again from the halfway marker. Not reset the whole mess of work and go again. This would allow people to feel the fight is still recoverable, and give raid leaders a chance to go over the strat, check their buffs, give any needed afk time, and the like. Remember that *people* play EQ, not computers, marines, or navy seals.
Also, people become invested in their guilds and in their characters. Making them into script puppets doesn't make them feel happy, it makes them annoyed. I don't know why any developer would want to make people annoyed, but Sendaii does just that.
Maybe SoE should listen to their customers, and not "go it alone" as it were. I'm sick of having to reach further and further down into the barrel to pull up new people who don't utterly hate the game, to show up and raid the unfun encounters of DoDh.
Rebut me all you want, but I have hundreds of people I talk to from various servers who feel the same way.
Comment Posted by: Gurunt on December 6, 2005 03:06 AM
I have to agree. Right now Prathun is about as popular as [I'm sure you can find a less insulting metaphor - Loral].
Sendaii is frankly insulting. Ridiculously long and unfun and frustrating.
I can appreciate the difficulty in tuning a challenging raid, but it should be an easy given that a constant 90 minute repetition-fest that you have to start from scratch at any wipe is NOT A GOOD IDEA.
EQ for me lately is a burden I deal with to hang out with old friends.... Sendaii is the worst encounter design since original Corniav.
Comment Posted by: Tolaren on December 6, 2005 03:22 AM
Loral wrote: "People like me would blow a gasket of it was advertised as a raiding game."
It doesn't have to be advertised specifically as a raiding game, just to let older EQ1ers who quit long ago, or newer WoWers who are bored of WoW raids that EQ1 has plenty to offer them.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on December 6, 2005 05:23 AM
"Also, people become invested in their guilds and in their characters. Making them into script puppets doesn't make them feel happy, it makes them annoyed."
100% agree.
A raid has to be FUN. A raid has to be reasonnably SHORT. A raid has to be class skill based, not emote based.
Snaring people is NOT fun. 1hour + raids are not fun. Getting to a raid zone-in in more than 10 minutes isn't. Raids locking at zone-in rather than at kill, isn't.
There are many things that can aggravate people without being tied to the boss kill itself.
That said, I'm not saying everything is black. I never grew bored when clearing Anguish although we did for a solid year. Yet I was bored after a month of DoD.
Newbies should start with WoW. Learn the basics there. Then play EQ for raids and advertise EQ as THE raiding game. Group and tradeskill is found also elsewhere and possibly better. While EQ could market on the shoulder of Prathun's work.
That is, if it can step back from pure military discipline and 7 days and 5 hours raid routine to make it enjoyable. And bring back some fun factor.
Comment Posted by: lsdfjsld on December 6, 2005 08:42 AM
"1hour + raids are not fun."
Going to corrent this quote...
1 hour+ raid EVENTS to kill ONE EVENT, are not fun.
Multihour raids, like anguish, time, and even tacvi (/gag) are (or can be) fun.
The key differences between say Queen Sendaii.. and Ture, Hanvar and AMV combined? You can take all 3 anguish bosses at your LEISURE and when your ready to, NINE loots (not including epics/runes) vs 3 (not including flags) for queen. In the same or less amount of time.
Having recently beat Queen a couple times, I have to say this encounter is not necessarily about skill, its about execution and endurance.
It's sad when people die intentionally just so they can get up to take a bio break or get a drink or bite to eat.
BTW, Vule is not much more fun than queen either.
I hope demiplane will be funner than the crap that came before it, but somehow the thought of being snared/dotted/etc for hours at a time for the next few weeks is not something to look forward to.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on December 6, 2005 09:45 AM
My bad I meant the duration per target and not the total length of a given raid (4h in Anguish is not equal to 4hours spent in DoD).
Comment Posted by: Skuz on December 6, 2005 11:25 AM
I have to disagree with the above posters who say Queen Sendaii is not fun, I absolutely loved this encounter, Its fast frentic & requires great co-ordination from everyone, nobody can sit there afk & let the rest of their guildies carry their ass through you are involved or you lose.
I appreciate some people find some encounters overly long, or overly frustrating, but not everyone is of the same mind, some LIKE hard stuff, some LIKE to be challenged by difficult encounters.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on December 6, 2005 12:48 PM
I have to agree that sendaii is a pain. after countless days of butting our heads on her, we are showing wear and stress in our guild. and the only way we can really go up is going thru sendaii
and the only way to get thru sendaii is with luck. not strategy, not skill. pure luck.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on December 6, 2005 05:30 PM
"Actually, one of the things I talked about at all three summits was about finding more ways to get Prathun's talent out in front of more people." --Loral
I'm coming to the point where I think you need a separate team of content developers for raiders and non-raiders. In recent weeks we've had both WoW devs and EQ devs talk about how they the things they do to make raids challenging don't translate to single groups. And it's true.
But the implication seems to be "And thus there's no way to make challenging single group content." No, the real implication is "We don't know how to make challenging single group content."
Today's raids are challenging because Prathun and people like him have spent years figuring out how to make them challenging. They've thought hard, worked hard, pushed the technology available to them to its limits, and like it or not the results are clearly their best effort.
If that kind of passion had been put into single group content from the beginning, I'd still be playing EQ. But single group content never got past the "big NPC that hits hard and has a few damage AEs" stage, at least not while I was playing.
I'm not sure what really challenging single group content would look like either. It will take years to develop, just like raid content did. It's like asking someone during the Velious era to propose the Sendaii encounter. WoW took some very good steps forward with single group encounters like Archeadus or the Zul'Farrak Pyramid. But now with Tigole and Furor making new content, the creativity seems to be going into raid encounters, just like EQ.
And that's the trouble: we all know how polarized players are over raider/non-raider issues. Does anyone really think that devs are immune? I'm sure they try to be impartial, but it takes passion and a love for the game to make good content. I just don't think raider devs have that passion for the game non-raiders play.
I think the original WoW devs had it--and that's why Blizzard sitting on 4 million accounts now. But an awful lot of us non-raiders are just holding on, hoping the new single group content promised in the expansion brings back the magic we felt the first time we fought through the Deadmines. "Wow! A story! Scripted encounters! Bosses that require planning and tactics! [okay, not much, but we're talking about the WoW equivalent of Crushbone here] AND I'M NOT IN A RAID!"
Comment Posted by: sunshadow on December 6, 2005 08:36 PM
I agree with Teremar, challenging single group content would be alot harder than raid content. At least with a raid you know roughly the abilities of the toons that will be thrown at it. With a group it could be anyone with a huge set of possible different abilities. This is why I think we will see more MM's to fill this kind of role cause it is the easy way for the designers to define the abilities of the group and then to design an event around that definition. However as long as MM's do not become the norm for building group challanges things will get better.
Comment Posted by: Loral on December 6, 2005 11:39 PM
"But the implication seems to be "And thus there's no way to make challenging single group content." No, the real implication is "We don't know how to make challenging single group content.""
Neither is true and they proved it in DOD. The single group missions in DOD are excellent and very challenging. The same is true for a lot of the DON single group missions and the MPG single group trials in Omens. There is a lot of excellent single group challenge and I expect we will see more.
I'm also not sure I agree with Prathun's statement about it. The Seeker is a raid-like event for a group of six and people like it a lot. It's hard, the reward is good, and it gives a single group all the feel of a raid. The same is true with the 70-5 mission in the Demiplane of Shadow. That's the most fun I've had with a group in EQ.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on December 7, 2005 01:17 AM
DoN and DoD do sound like an improvement (I suspect in reaction to WoW's single group content, and there's nothing wrong with that). But I have yet to hear a raider say "Wow, that is hard. If you non-raiders can pull that off, you deserve some pretty good gear."
Comment Posted by: Tolaren on December 7, 2005 05:00 AM
What are you guys on about? No challenging group content - it's all around you - are you blind!? Lol
Just off the top of my head I can think of places like Vxed, Tipt, Kod'Taz Trials, MPG trials (ok some were easy), and recently certain DoDH missions?
People said those things were TOO challenging, so they nerfed them a bit, or improved the rewards, but they're still pretty challenging for your average non-raider guy.
Comment Posted by: Loral on December 7, 2005 08:07 AM
""Wow, that is hard. If you non-raiders can pull that off, you deserve some pretty good gear.""
I hear it a lot and I saw it a lot on the boards. The single group content in Dreadspire is extremely challenging and the gear rewards from the high-end DoD missions is Qvic level 200+ hp mana gear.
WoW's single group stuff is lagging behind EQ. While WoW has a popular and well-developed solo game, their group game focuses on just joining with people to complete solo quests. There are no group quests - quests given to the entire party at once and completed regardless of who picks it up.
The other day in WoW I went into Gnomergoria with a group. Members in our group, including me, ended up making mad dashes during combat to finish up our own individual quests. I had the same thing in Stranglethorn. I was grouped with three others and all of us were at different parts in our quests so we just ran around finishing off each person's individual quests instead of all working together on a single quest. This is WoW's biggest disadvantage and one of EQ's greatest strengths.
Comment Posted by: Teory on December 7, 2005 11:52 AM
"so we just ran around finishing off each person's individual quests instead of all working together on a single quest. This is WoW's biggest disadvantage and one of EQ's greatest strengths."
This isn't anything EQ does better at all about this - every quest in EQ requires each person to collect the drops. I've said this over and over - how much better would the VT key quest have been if there were group drops where each person in the group would have received the drop at the same time if they had the quest and were on it - the same has carried on to the DoN tasks where adding 3 more people to your group who need map pieces actually makes your quest take longer!
They should really make the change of allowing quest drops to drop for multiple people at once so there is incentive to work together on quests.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on December 7, 2005 12:00 PM
Well, sounds like there may have been even more improvement than I thought. But are those fun and challenging encouters the rule or the exception? Do non-raiders spend the bulk of their time doing them, or is grinding still the norm? (Serious questions, not having played those expansions.)
I didn't consider Vxed and Tipt "challenging" in the good sense though, even as an enchanter. "Charm break--must recast charm spell within a second or die" didn't require much more thought than Mata Muram's emotes. Kod'Taz and MPG trials were well beyond my reach so I can't comment.
But as for your criticisms of WoW Loral I don't see any substantial difference between "Quests the group gets as a whole" and "Quests individuals get themselves but need the help of a group to complete." Sounds like your Gnomeregan group was a bunch of uncoordinated newbies (which is not surprising at that level--they tend to start coming together at about 40-45, though these days you're likely to get all alt groups that are good at much lower levels). A good instance group will start by finding out what quests everyone is trying to finish and plan the run accordingly. For those who prefer playing in groups, like me, the dropped loot and xp make repeating instances even after the quests are done a very viable way to progress. WoW instances are LDoN done right in my book, and the vast improvement in creativity and just plain fun outweighs any issues with the incentive structure.
By the way, Stranglethorn Vale IS solo content with the option to form groups, not group content. I suggested it earlier as a way to tide you over until you get to the mid to upper 30's and instance groups become easier to find. Once you can get into Scarlet Monastery groups you can level from there to 60 entirely in various instances.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on December 7, 2005 04:36 PM
since no one posted it yet.. I know its off topic but..
http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Crier&message.id=236#M236
Dear Legends Subscriber,
We would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your continued support of EverQuest and the EverQuest community and hope you have enjoyed our Legends service. As of February 1, 2006, however, we will be discontinuing the Legends service.
Comment Posted by: EvilEye on December 7, 2005 07:23 PM
"We've discovered that it is near impossible to emulate the circumstances of a Live server environment on Beta."
I wish people would understand what a huge line of BS that is and what a profoundly negative impact it has on the game.
Comment Posted by: Prathun on December 7, 2005 08:35 PM
""We've discovered that it is near impossible to emulate the circumstances of a Live server environment on Beta."
"I wish people would understand what a huge line of BS that is and what a profoundly negative impact it has on the game."
If you can demonstrate to me how it's possible to get 54 end-game raiders on Beta to behave exactly as they would on a Live server, I will send you a whole box of fudge cookies. :)
-Prathun
Comment Posted by: Ladwenae_AB on December 7, 2005 09:42 PM
First of all I gotta say that those here saying Sendaii isnt fun gotta be a minority, but no matter how you do it there will always be someone that complains.
I do agree that it is a bit long, and I know that I personally need a 5 min AFK after we have done it cause of the intensity of the event.
That said I think its kickass when 54 persons really gotta be on thier toes for all the fight instead of just oldschool move behind a cornered mob and hit autoattack.
And saying its because of luck and not skill say more about you and your guild than it does about the encounter, its really not that hard when you know what to do....
As a sidenote, if you cant beat Sendaii easy I think you should go back to anguish a few months and try again, cause Demiplane isnt easier than Sendaii.
After having participated in so far 7 bosses downed in demiplane I gotta say that the scripting in a few of them have gone in the opposite direction than a raid like Sendaii, for me Wailing sisters is participate in killing 20 trash mobs, go afk 10 mins then maybe kill more trash, and even tho I hear it will be changed I doubt it will be changed in a way where it is anything more than 80% of the raid kills trash while the rest do the actual encounter.
How the lore in dreadspire and the encounters in Demiplane interact is really superb, and Demiplane have some of the best raids I have participated in, even tho I think they are a bit on the easy side since the difficulty where meant to be past OMM, and some of the encounters are beatable easy for anguish guilds, where only Redfang is a real challenge.
@Prathun: We where in beta with Raging Fury but didnt even test a single encounter except a few of us played with what I think is the "unfriendly" doorman to Dreadspire in the Hive. We actually anticipated a break from all the farming back then so its a bit annoying to hear you complain about your beta guilds when we at least didnt get used.
Comment Posted by: Loral on December 7, 2005 09:52 PM
"This isn't anything EQ does better at all about this - every quest in EQ requires each person to collect the drops. I've said this over and over."
Everquest Missions are much different than individual quests. Missions require that only one member of the group collect items on item collections and everyone gets credit for kills. The mission is given to your whole group, not to an individual - thats the key difference.
"Well, sounds like there may have been even more improvement than I thought. But are those fun and challenging encouters the rule or the exception?"
Thats sort of a general question. I'd say that at least 1/2 of the missions I've tried in DOD are a lot of fun. The Hive missions are extremely challenging and the series of missions for the Prophet are the best single group hunts I've had. All I know is that I really like them and since the gear changes, the rewards are excellent. Some of them can run a little long.
"Do non-raiders spend the bulk of their time doing them, or is grinding still the norm?"
Players bottomfeeding doesn't make other content bad. I am able to get a pickup group for a DOD mission every night I try. There are still more DON Creator groups (although a bug with repop slowed that down tonight) and a LOT more monster mission groups. I expect that to change when player's power goes up and they start to see more of that 200 hp mana gear over general channels. It takes 6 months or a year before new content sees a lot of groups. Only now am I reliably getting MPG single-group mission requests in LFG.
"But as for your criticisms of WoW Loral I don't see any substantial difference between "Quests the group gets as a whole" and "Quests individuals get themselves but need the help of a group to complete.""
It seems hard for me to explain but the difference is profound. A quest given to the group gives the whole group a reason to work together. They are not a series of quests given to individuals that each person completes - this is a single quest given to the whole group that the whole group must work together to complete.
How many times in WOW have you been in a group where kill-numbers between two different people for the same quest were out of sync?
Comment Posted by: Armarant on December 8, 2005 02:49 AM
I would say Sendaii is fun .. upto that last 25 percent.. then its a pain.. having 50+ Drachnids spawn on you in the final minutes of the instance and wipeing your raid is not fun at all. especially when you downed Sendaii a minute before they wipe your raid.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on December 8, 2005 03:05 AM
"How many times in WOW have you been in a group where kill-numbers between two different people for the same quest were out of sync?"
Since I do mostly instance groups and instance groups tend to start and finish quests together, it's the exception. But when it happens, etiquette says everyone stays until everyone is done with the quest.
Of course WoW is bringing in a lot of new players who start out with no idea of MMORPG etiquette. I've seen people who ninja looted at level 20 become respected members of the community at 60, simply because they didn't understand what was expected of them at the time but soon figured it out.
Sounds like you've had some bad experiences playing with newbies, Loral, but it's really not an issue once you're past the newbie stage. Since you can't get your elite quests done without a group, people soon learn that it pays to cooperate with your group and get everyone's elite quests done.
Comment Posted by: Richard Hinson on December 8, 2005 04:36 AM
Prathun
This is in responce to your following post:
"We've discovered that it is near impossible to emulate the circumstances of a Live server environment on Beta."
"I wish people would understand what a huge line of BS that is and what a profoundly negative impact it has on the game."
If you can demonstrate to me how it's possible to get 54 end-game raiders on Beta to behave exactly as they would on a Live server, I will send you a whole box of fudge cookies. :)
-Prathun
SOE has had an active player base filled with end game raiders that would have been more than happy to have done what you ask. Stormhammer, i.e. the "Legends" servers(s), where originally advertised as getting content before the general player base.
In short, you've had at hand for years, an active base of players, and a server base you could have rolled out expansion content to prior to general release. You just never chose to do so. You would have done two things at once, you would have made "Lengends" what it was supposed to be, rather than what it was (a one trick pony), and you would have gotten live players involved. More so, those where players that where your biggest most loyal fans, more than willing to work with you to get the bugs out.
Comment Posted by: Tolaren on December 8, 2005 04:52 AM
Loral, lay off the bottomfeeder comments about raids please. You view on raiding and preference on instanced missions is clear, but bottomfeeders is not synonymous with raiding - certainly not in the guilds I've been part of. You've probably just had some bad experiences.
And if you think you don't find bottom feeders in groups, you're sorely mistaken. In fact its in pickup groups where I find people most likely unable to pull their weight, not doing the dps they should, or just following and hitting auto attack.
The raids I've done aren't full of mindless robots, but an entirely social experience, requiring entralling teamplay, and a hell of a lot of fun. If that has not been your experience, I'm sorry that you've missed out on the best content in EQ. Sadly it seems a lot of players have never been in a raiding guild that showed them the light. I used to think like you, years ago.. :P
You could argue that after a raid has been beaten it just becomes a mindless farm. But the same goes for group content, especially for the creator mission you mention - can you say "mind-numblingly dull"?
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on December 8, 2005 06:32 AM
"If that has not been your experience, I'm sorry that you've missed out on the best content in EQ."
Same thought here. Cliches are hard to die.
Comment Posted by: Loral on December 8, 2005 08:29 AM
"Loral, lay off the bottomfeeder comments about raids please."
When did I say anything about raids?
Someone asked if players are off doing the most challenging DOD missions and I said that a lot of them are still bottomfeeding in Creator or Monster Missions. I never mentioned raiders at all.
It's funny how certain keywords in sentences just trigger reaction regardless of the words around it. I should probably avoid the word "bottomfeeder" to avoid miscommunication - obviously for some, if I say it I must be talking about raids.
"SOE has had an active player base filled with end game raiders that would have been more than happy to have done what you ask. Stormhammer, i.e. the "Legends" servers(s), where originally advertised as getting content before the general player base."
There's a few problems with this idea:
1. Stormhammer isn't the beta server. They get content early sometimes (like Arena) but never a whole expansion. No production server would ever get an entire expansion early.
2. The raid content in beta isn't polished at all. Often raiders are fighting humanoid models over and over as the dev tunes them with no loot at the end. Stormhammer people wouldn't go to the Arena to try an untuned raid for no loot any more than people did it on beta.
Raiders want to fight tuned events for loot. They don't want to fight untuned events for no loot on beta. They have a raid schedule on the live servers that they need to follow to stay competitive. Helping a dev in beta doesn't do that. Now some raiders go over there to help out SOE because they know it will matter to them and everyone else in the long run, but it is never a fully polished live event. SOE can't test raid content intended for raiders geared up from previous content in the same expansion.
Comment Posted by: Zavier De'Sine on December 8, 2005 09:13 AM
Loral
That is disengenous. They have some of the best and brightest raiders that are willing to beta test there content. The fault in it is ENTIRELY on the SOE end. They do not hold up to what they say they will do, don't have the content ready when they say they will and my personal favorite is show up for an event and sit there for hours waiting on some dev or gm to deign to show.
Comment Posted by: Tolaren on December 8, 2005 10:41 AM
Alright I probably misunderstood, sorry Loral. I think I had in my mind a previous comment from you about raiding on the EQLive boards but I can't find it now so I might as well of imagined it.
Peace.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on December 8, 2005 11:35 AM
"[Non-raiders] bottomfeeding doesn't make other content bad."
True. But it does affect whether I can do the good content. I have not-so-fond memories of trying to drag people to Old Seb, but even though they agreed it was fun they knew they'd get far more xp/hour in some boring PoP zone.
[Hope the change to the quote keeps you out of trouble. ;)]
"I am able to get a pickup group for a DOD mission every night I try."
This is what I was hoping to hear, though I have to remember you're a cleric. I've got several months worth of content to do yet in WoW (I consume it quite slowly) but if Blizzard keeps focusing on the raid game it's good to know EQ has become a more attractive alternative. Thanks for the info.
Comment Posted by: Teory on December 8, 2005 12:17 PM
"Everquest Missions are much different than individual quests. Missions require that only one member of the group collect items on item collections and everyone gets credit for kills. The mission is given to your whole group, not to an individual - thats the key difference."
--------------------------------------------
I think that exactly proves my point. Only the newest and most recent material in EQ is based around group missions while the majority of EQ is solo quests where the zero-sum game says that if someone joins me needing the quest they're taking away one of my drops, not helping me get closer to finishing.
Comment Posted by: Loral on December 8, 2005 12:47 PM
"That is disengenous. They have some of the best and brightest raiders that are willing to beta test there content."
So why didn't they? The beta had open slots for a long time. Entire guilds were given access to beta. If the Stormhammer community was so eager to help test high-end raid content, why didn't they do it?
"Alright I probably misunderstood, sorry Loral. I think I had in my mind a previous comment from you about raiding on the EQLive boards but I can't find it now so I might as well of imagined it."
I'm sure I've said things like that in the past (and probably will again), but I didn't say it in relation to this conversation =)
"I think that exactly proves my point. Only the newest and most recent material in EQ is based around group missions"
Well, since LDON. LDON, Dragons, and Depths all have a lot of focus on single-group missions instead of individual quests. I think you and I want the same thing but you're angry they didn't come up with it six years ago instead of three. I'm just happy it's getting done now and frankly, I'd like to see Blizzard add it to WOW.
Comment Posted by: Liz on December 8, 2005 12:54 PM
Loral wrote: "I am able to get a pickup group for a DOD mission every night I try."
You are a cleric (and a semi-celebrity one). Of course you get DoD groups every night you try.
Comment Posted by: Loral on December 8, 2005 02:00 PM
Well, I don't group with five other semi-celebrity clerics. Most of the groups have no idea who I am which is fine with me.
I don't buy the "you're just a cleric" thing.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on December 8, 2005 02:55 PM
"That is disengenous. They have some of the best and brightest raiders that are willing to beta test there content."
"So why didn't they? The beta had open slots for a long time. Entire guilds were given access to beta. If the Stormhammer community was so eager to help test high-end raid content, why didn't they do it?"
That would be my question to. from what I understood stormhammer got beta access privelages above and beyond what normal production servers got, they could get access to beta when it wasnt open to other servers and they had the majority of spots reserved on beta.
Comment Posted by: xsi on December 8, 2005 05:28 PM
Just to throw another wrench in the works...
I want more 1/2 group stuff. :P
Half of our regular group left for EQ2 when it launched (we tried it, did not like it, and came back to EQ). We don't have any desire to make new friends, so we've been doing things as a three person group. Obviously, that limits us primarily to bottom feeding, and we have to accept that as the consequence of our choice... but I do wish there was more content intended for 2-3 people, in addition to groups of 6 and raids of 54.
(Note: We can do DoNs as a monk/shaman/druid trio, once we overgeared the monk to the point that she could survive long enough for the shaman slow to land. We can do RCoD named (some) to try to get our 69/70 spells and further gear up. Everything else that is not a monster mission is pretty much out of our reach)
Comment Posted by: bleh on December 8, 2005 05:33 PM
"don't have any desire to make new friends"
yes, lets change the fundemental core of the game so that people can solo and progress with less because your too lazy, scared, or anti-social to 'make new friends'.
/boggle
Comment Posted by: xsi on December 8, 2005 07:18 PM
DoD included a couple of 1/2 group monster missions, so I think SOE understands that not everything needs to be targeted at the 6-person group. I just want to see more of it, preferably outside of the monster mission concept.
Feel free to continue formulating your negative opinion of me.
Comment Posted by: Loral on December 8, 2005 10:46 PM
I don't mind more 1/2 group content and content scaled lower power (for lower reward) than typical missions. I actually like the WoW five-person-group.
I'd rather have 1/2 group stuff and stuff set for 30 minute or 45 minute gameplay sessons than more solo content.
Comment Posted by: Naladini on December 8, 2005 11:51 PM
"So why didn't they? The beta had open slots for a long time. Entire guilds were given access to beta. If the Stormhammer community was so eager to help test high-end raid content, why didn't they do it?"
The /betabuff characters were considerably better equipped than the average characters on SH once Township Rebellion and Precision Strike left the server.
The community kept playing and enjoying the content, but normal expansion/raid progression was very difficult to come by. No, SH would not have made a good beta environment on its own. However, one of the perks of being on Stormhammer was automatic invites to the past few beta tests.
Comment Posted by: xsi on December 9, 2005 04:23 AM
"I don't mind more 1/2 group content and content scaled lower power (for lower reward) than typical missions. I actually like the WoW five-person-group.
I'd rather have 1/2 group stuff and stuff set for 30 minute or 45 minute gameplay sessons than more solo content."
Agreed.
Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on December 9, 2005 06:04 PM
Only an observation since SOE says it will continue to add more MMs.
They were (I say were) popular not only because of the nice rewards, but because a small group could be assembled in a matter of minutes and usually finish a mission in less than half an hour. Perfect for short log on sessions or to kill time when waiting for guilds or friends to log on and assemble for bigger missions.
The last patches nerfed them, reducing the rewards and increasing the difficulty ... so, out of curiosity, I checked 4 of them today to see how they were faring. I counted 80 players at the South Karana camp pre nerf this week, zero today, Also zero at BB, zero in E Commons, zero in Neriak (2 quests there).
The Holiday Quest giver was also deserted despite the patch to enable more than one player per group to work on the quest at the same time. My guess is that the level of difficulty and the time comittment was too great for the rewards ...
I don't see much reason for SOE to add more of these missions if the nerfs are so severe that these instances are now as empty and deserted as the old zones are.
Comment Posted by: Loral on December 9, 2005 06:48 PM
Besides forcing people to actually be "in" the mission to earn the experience, what did they nerf?
Comment Posted by: xsi on December 9, 2005 08:18 PM
I know the guk one was nerfed to be harder to train the goblins to the zone... and think I heard the clockwork one was nerfed so that you had a limited # of lives... but am not sure if there were global changes made to further nerf them. (I don't consider having to be in the zone and looting the crystal a nerf... though I wish they could have just flagged you as having entered the zone, as looting an otherwise meaningless object seems like a superfluous step).
The reason I don't know is that the last xp nerf was more than sufficient to make sure I would skip monster missions in the future. Mission accomplished, SOE!
Comment Posted by: Hemdell on December 9, 2005 09:21 PM
MM's pretty dead on my server too. I really cant understand why they want content that no one uses. I wish they paid attention to LDoNs they way they did MMs, maybe peeps would still be able to do em. All I heard out of peeps was how GREAT this expansion was going to be. Well, the next one I think I'll pass on for 3 to 6 months so i wont know about what they nerfed and what is was like when it went live.
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on December 10, 2005 01:08 AM
One has to remember Everquest is a flowing game. It changes over time. I'm sure people who got LDON and DOD are glad that they bought them and played them early, before the experience was nerfed. I think the eventual nerfing is simply the fact that if it's too good no one will play anywhere else. There are many threads in different forums that say MMs were ruining the game as no one could find groups to play any of the "regular" content. Personally, I tend to agree. Before MMs, you could find LDON people. Not often, but they were there. After MMs, I hardly heard a peep in PoK for anything regarding LDONs or anything else for that matter. Having a larger percentage of the server population doing MMs constantly just doesn't seem in the spirit of the game. I like them myself, not for the experience, but for the lore and the "newness" factor. Let's not forget however, unlike LDONs MMs were not meant to be the "heart" of this expansion, but merely a means for people to group easy in between doing the more traditional stuff.
Looks like Sony's going to have to go back to the drawing board because the more I play this game the more it seems like everyone wants to level up and beat it ASAP rather than actually enjoying it for what it is. Don't know how SOE is going to ever fix that.
I'm glad they're trying to address issues of grouping, even if their efforts keep going awry.
Comment Posted by: Hemdell on December 10, 2005 05:12 AM
My real life groupmates were not using the MM's to Level....but to catch up on the huge gap we have as casual players AA wise. I would never want to level much in a MM do to the lack off skill increase. But it is nice to be over the 200aa mark now, which I would not be at if no MMs.
As for the wait on the next Expansion. For me, I would rather not know what im missing. I was playing when you got 2aas per MM and now its 75-80% of one. If I just bought the expansion now I would say "hey this is nice." But now having had the hand in the cookie jar, my hand feels empty now.
I am not in a raiding guild nor will I ever be. The MMs were a way of getting a group and having some fun for our very small guild. We dont have the time to raid. And frankly why would I go and raid and most of the time get nothing for the time and effort. Doesn't compute to me. The no raiding part of the game ( to me ) is in need of more work than the raiding part. Just my opinion.
Comment Posted by: Glamdrigg on December 10, 2005 05:48 AM
Aye, and now with the lock out timers on all the missions and the lower reward it looks like I'm back to grinding the Creator. I can almost get AAs as fast in DON content as I can in MMs now. This may be the intent of nerfing them this way.
As a game of this scope ages the emptiness of old content and old zones grows more and more. What happened to LDON, will happen to DON, and will happen to MMs. One has to wonder what they will do with all the conent that no one uses.
Even more a shame is that if you didn't get in on the ground floor rush of this content before it was burned up by everyone else you are going to be missing in the case of LDON ... some spells etc.
The next exppansion in our game should do a few things to remedy the old unused content and make it compelling space for single group encounters. Instead of adding new zones they should revamp the old empty ones. There is a lot of space here that could be retooled for this.
Comment Posted by: Sixfinger on December 10, 2005 09:36 AM
Someone I know went from 52 to 70 only grinding in MMs. They have no gear, no skills but my god can they play a fairy well! Gone are the days where u need skills and hard work to progress...now it's about learning how todo 2 MMs quickly so you can just chain them to get max exp.
6finger Discount
Assmuncher of
Quellious
Comment Posted by: RosesAreRed on December 10, 2005 10:48 AM
When the DoD expansion went live, the MMs were bugged and needed to be fixed. It was possible to be grouped and never enter or accept the mission and still gain exp and AAs. With practice, some of the MMs could be soloed while the other group members were /afk. I know one person who went from 67 - 70 and 20 AA - 100 AA in the Werewolf MM in a couple of days.
After the first patch, the exp and AAs were adjusted and later the addition of an item that must be looted to gain exp corrected the /afk situation. The MMs were then as the designers intended them to be (I assume), but the fixes didn't stop there.
A couple more quick patches and more severe adjustments were made. I haven't done all of the missions before and after, but I can comment that in the Neriak Fairy mission, the number of grave robbers to contend with was doubled even after the exp and AA were reduced. I couldn't find any groups to try the others.
The MMs are an innovative idea. If players want to grind there - let them. The lopsided exp in new vs old content encouraged grinding in and crowding of zones like PC, BOT and Creator missions and that hasn't been "fixed". Some players will always be driven to level level level rather than savor the content more slowly - so let them. For others, the ability to gain needed AAs allows non raiders to be competitive enough to join the pick up or occasional guild raids that are needed to work through the complicated "progression" required to access higher game content.
And, as said by other posters, why keep adding lower/mid level zones when older ones with lots of content exist but are empty? Updating the look and adjusting the exp and prizes in these zones would give players interesting opportunities to really PLAY their classes while leveling vs grinding or being PL in the unimaginative Luclin and POP zones.
One further comment about the MMs. Any levels can play together which creates a short opportunity to group with friends who are usually ungroupable, and the fact that you probably aren't playing your usual class(es) lets you experience what other classes are all about in a limited way ... these two creative deviations set the MMs apart from other types of missions. Unlike the cumbersome shroud progressions, the MMs are available any time 3 or more players want to do something together .... NOW! That on its own makes (made)them a terrific addition to the game.
Comment Posted by: sunshadow on December 11, 2005 04:13 PM
They should add a MM variant to each LDON which would reward you with some LDON points as well as some XP. The points can replace the item reward. This might help those of us who still want some things in LDON but can never find a group willing to go there.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on December 11, 2005 04:27 PM
Personally I dont like most of the lore coming out of monster missions. the only one I would realistically try would be the one in Overthere, and I dont even think that is worth its time.
Monster missions were ill tuned forceing several wipes because the monsters were undertuned for the content.
you could never take tradeskill/cash drops out of them. and now that experience is not there MMs are not a very appetizeing thing
Comment Posted by: Guest on December 11, 2005 06:24 PM
There is a reason why the adds that spawn during Sendaii event only have 10-12k hitpoints, ae them down as they spawn and you will have no problem whatsoever..
Comment Posted by: Raalf on December 12, 2005 12:49 PM
Hey Loral...
About the DOD missions you always get? I'm relatively well known, yet I've spent more than a few nights alone. I've also been with several cleric friends, and had no problem, as long as the cleric said they were "a cleric plus a friend." Not knocking your class (or mine) but the fact remains the holy trinity of EQ remains intact on the forefront.
Being a cleric helps get groups tenfold.
That being said, it's the monotony of the exact raids Mitcheypoo and Gurunt are talking about that's helped me split from EQ since our last major win. I want to see us win, but I can't afford to sit glued to the computer for 120 minutes nonstop. 2 hours is the absolute maximum I can even tolerate on a fun raid. I've done 6-8 hour clearings of zones before, and I didn't like it. At least back then you could afk to walk around and breathe some.
I've read it is unhealthy for someone to sit more than an hour at a computer without a break; maybe take that to heart, and put in some kinda phase break every hour or so? That would certainly let me enjoy raids like Sendaii. I really do like the "save point" analogy mentioned above. No need to reduce the difficulty, as long as I don't have to stare till my eyes water for two hours +.
And on the test server thoughts, I would propose releasing the expansion content, in beta form, to the Stormhammer server live. Add a disclaimer stating it is incomplete, but available for them. Make it fully available for them a month before going live elsewhere. They pay a premium, and should get that sort of premium content. Then after they troubleshoot the scripts and content, us normal server people will have a solid, worked expansion. And Stormhammer will have the first shot at it, which is why they're there in the first place.
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on December 12, 2005 01:56 PM
While I think Raalf's idea is not a bad one, it is an unfortunate fact that Stormhammer is now officially dead. Any speculation on the role Stormhammer could have (I think should have) played in such things is, again unfortunately, moot at this point:(
Comment Posted by: Loral on December 12, 2005 05:24 PM
Announcement today:
EQ TITANIUM
EverQuest®: Titanium, an all-inclusive collection consisting of EverQuest Classic and the first ten expansions. EverQuest Titanium carries a suggested retail price of $19.99 and will be available at retail beginning January 11, 2006. In addition to the release of EverQuest Titanium, SOE will launch EQ Players, a website that will enhance the services provided to EQ players.
EverQuest Titanium offers the original classic game, as well as all ten expansion packs: The Ruins of Kunark®, The Scars of Velious®, The Shadows of LuclinÔ, The Planes of PowerÔ, The Legacy of Ykesha™, Lost Dungeons of Norrath™, Gates of Discord™, Dragons of NorrathÔ, Omens of WarÔ and Depths of DarkhollowÔ. You will also gain several of the ingame claim items from each expansion.
In addition to EverQuest Titanium, SOE is launching EQ Players, a website designed to extend the player’s interaction with the game outside of the game world. This new service gives players more ways to access, track and expand their in-game characters by obtaining character statistics, profiles, item information, in-game activities and more all in one place. The website, www.eqplayers.com, will launch on December 15, 2005, and will have profiles for more than 4.9 million characters and more than 335 million total inventory items. EQ Players will be available for EverQuest players to try, at no additional cost, until December 29, 2005, after which time some EQ Players features will carry a monthly fee.
In addition, as a special offer, SOE will reactivate previously closed EverQuest accounts for 21 days of free gameplay but the former EverQuest players must take advantage of this offer before January 13, 2006.
Expect an article this week on this and last week's patch.
Comment Posted by: Glormane on December 13, 2005 05:14 AM
I am not a high end raider, but I have been around a while, so I have still had a chance to see the development of raids. I've just got into Time, and find it really fun so far. To get their our last EP encounter was TRC. Many in the guild are not yet Time Flagged. The difference between the two sort of highlights the problem with the newer raids, of which you speak. TRC, you have an hour, if you are lucky of organisation, followed by an hour of monotonous/Frantic cc. No breaks or let ups and a big chance of a wheel coming off. Rewards are only gotten at the end of the raid. Looking at Time, although you are against the clock there is sufficent time to take a quick break, catch a LD player etc. Heres the important part for me, you are rewarded along the way, each phase has its own rewards. Another one of my favorites are the Ikkinz raids, again you are rewarded along the way. You could get all the way to the last boss and wipe and still come away with rewards that strengthen your position. Raids that are superlong, with no breaks, and no rewards along the way, are not fun, they are a barrier to break, and therefore a chore and its unhealthy (European law dictates that people working with computers take a 10 min break from the computer every hour). I wont be doing TRC again if I can help it.
Comment Posted by: Simkin on December 13, 2005 06:27 AM
Glormane you at least can now will people into PoTime and get them flagged a few each week. During PoP we had to do TRC 3 or 4 times not to mention the countless failures. TRC's reward was Time not a couple of drops though so that is why we did it.
The PoP god raids were certainly fun and different and the time altough most people certainly didn't do Xegony or TRC more times than they needed. And I do think the major reason was the amount of time it took to complete.
Comment Posted by: Skuz on December 13, 2005 08:08 AM
I really think that the posters have hit on a very relevant point in terms of raid design, 2 solid unbroken hours is very draining on even the most devout eq-worshipper, some kind of scripted intermission, break or a design which enables a short break each hour would be a major step imho, some encounters a break can be "manufactured" (for example kiting some key mobs awhile while resses/rebuffs/afk's/bio breaks are done is one way), but some events cannot be manipulated in such a manner.
If future raids can be developed with this in mind & are tailored to fit into a 2-3 hour time-frame (but allow greater than this for learning the encounter) then i think this will make raiding more enjoyable overall.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on December 13, 2005 09:18 AM
That's why 30min clearing tops + 15min fight is ok.
And raid locking at start with no trash is not.
Comment Posted by: Faladarea on December 13, 2005 11:23 AM
"If you can demonstrate to me how it's possible to get 54 end-game raiders on Beta to behave exactly as they would on a Live server, I will send you a whole box of fudge cookies. :)
-Prathun"
Suggestion:
Identify an end-game raiding guild that is appropriate to attempt the new content in beta.
Copy their characters to beta.
Offer EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM a reward for BEATING the content. For example: Offer a reward for participation. Offer a second reward for beating the content.
Make that reward very desirable - Make it unique (artifact - whatever) - Such that it only gets awarded ONE time for this raid encounter. At that point it becomes a personal trophy as well as an item upgrade. Make the item visable to other players.
The visability part is important for the trophy aspect of the reward.
If you need them to do the raid multiple times to tune it, make the reward scalable. When those players get back to their own server, they have the reward to show off on their own server.
Comment Posted by: Wolfkinder on December 13, 2005 02:21 PM
"Identify an end-game raiding guild that is appropriate to attempt the new content in beta."
First, I can only hear the screaming from the casual end about this. However, as a casual player who has no issues with raiders in general, the only thing I would suggest is never to use the same guild twice. In other words, don't let one raiding guild have a monopoly on learning new content to the exclusion of all other raiding guilds.
My other suggestion (and I say this again as a casual who does NOT know how these betas are done exactly) is to make it a competition of sorts. In other words, have 2, 3, or 4 of the top guilds performing this. Have them hit the same content EXACTLY, then tune based on their encounters, then allow them to hit the same content again after the tuning is finished. Seems this would give better overall ideas on how different guilds can perform tasks (I assume aside from the common Zerg fest strategy, all guilds have different levels of strategic ability and may hit content in different and creative ways). Best guild wins whatever -- frankly, this might work even for bragging rights. "Yeah, Wolfkinder's Ravers were the first to smack down Sendaii in her current form. Bow before us:)" Maybe even have SOE have a board announcing those that were able to perform said encounter with the most success.
Again, not a raider so I speak from knowledge gleaned from these boards:)
Comment Posted by: hoshisabi on December 13, 2005 02:30 PM
Adding to the previous poster's suggestion, it might be as simple as being allowed to have an influence on the story or just on the names of something. It's difficult to do this to get a full 54 people, since you're not able to give all of them an addition. But, allowing the 54 people to suggest a name, and then use one of those might do it.
Comment Posted by: Bunion on December 14, 2005 02:44 AM
As someone who has been in several of the beta's (but not in a good while) I can attest to their being a difference between beta raids and raids on regular servers. First it is very hard to get a large group of people committed to fully testing things. Betas start off fun since you get to see all the new content etc, but after awhile you really start debating how much time and effort you want to put in for something in the end gives you no benefit. You don't get to keep any of the items off these boss mobs or the various new AA's and spells so even a even the most dedicated people start debating how much time they are spending in beta v/s how much time they could be putting in improving their regular characters.
Not to mention that often times in beta they have a developer there to watch the raid and they usually end up summoning people and triggering the raid which may have cut out an hour or more you would have had to spend to get there. Plus when you do get wiped you have them their to rez everyone and rebuff etc, so you end up with an unrealistic time frame involved.
Plus on regular servers unless you are the very first guild ever to get to a boss, you have generally heard things about it from other guilds on other servers so you have an idea of a strategy involved. But in beta this is the very first time anyone has ever seen this and you tend to die repeatedly(either that or you mow them down with ease.) I have done tests on beta where we died over and over for a couple of hours and that was it.
None of this takes in account that in beta since you generally don't get a whole guild that has been working together for some time, you are basically doing raids with a pickup group. This makes it very hard to adequately test these encounters. You try doing a raid with no one in charge or with 5 people trying to be in charge, it just doesn't work.
Comment Posted by: Leafkutter on December 14, 2005 05:25 AM
I agree with Mitcheypoo...Sendaii is wearing me out too. It is a great and fun raid, but the adds at 25% are just to much. It burns people out when you can only get that close and still get nothing after a long long fight. It is to long, most times if you fight to the 25%, it is to late to make more than two runs at the thing in a night.
As far as the beta testing, I beta'd on GoD, it was just to intense on the machine I had at the time so I didn't get to do much testing, but the biggest problem I had in beta was that beta buff really was ineffective. My character had about half the stats of my same leveled toon on my live account.
I like the idea of the visible trophy for beta testing content. It was stated that its hard to get raiders to act the way they would in a live raid. I think that will always be true, just like you don't want to give away to much of content in beta, the big raiding guilds don't want you seeing much of their strategies in fear of the next expansion exploiting that knowledge, Another fear for some is something being seen as a way the raid tries to exploit something even when it doesn't appear to be an exploit to them and just seems like a natural way of accomplishing their goal.
Comment Posted by: Faladarea on December 14, 2005 10:16 AM
The naming thing is a good idea as well. It has it's own issues but I suspect that those could be overcome (for example you might say name some zone after the guild in question - But then Bunny Ninjas on my server would be an issue IMO).
The naming idea is easy as well - no itimization etc. Simple to implement. I still like the trophy idea though. Stand around in POK with your flaming sword of beta ownage - Lots of folks would like that.
Recall the cries of disgust that went out when armor dye went in and the look of trophy gear was diluted in the game...
Comment Posted by: wormy on December 14, 2005 10:39 AM
Verant had it right once in time, I'm talking about breaks in long raids ;)
Back in the days, Plane of Sky was a monster to raid, but they had breaks after each isle.
After clearing one place, the 'event' continued when the players handed their key to the NPC. It was possible to get in a bio break, to get something to drink, eat.
Comment Posted by: Ladwenae_AB on December 15, 2005 08:27 AM
In regards to beta testing raid content there is rewards to those who do it.
First of all you get a solid knowledge of the encounter(s) you are testing, which most likely mean you will have it easier when you get to it, and thus start getting loots from it sooner. The guilds that did extensive testing in DoDh got 20 AAs each on a toon on the accounts they used as well, not that AAs really matter, but its still a reward no matter how you put it.
I think there where like 10 highend guilds in last beta, but they only used a few of those.
Other event testing is done via zonewide emotes where you send the GM ( Usually Dev's ) a tell and if he needs you he will summon you to where ever the testing is gonna happen. I participated in testing Drithnak, but the other times I offered my help I wasnt used.
Each testing you participate in gives beta tokens, that you hand in and if you have done enough testing you get the beta reward ( 20 AAs as mentioned earlier )
Personally I would far prefer a unique illusion clickie or something rather than AAs, cause AAs are easy to get anyway.
If I get the chance to join another beta I will, if nothing else then because its the only way to do controlled parsings since we cant get out live toons copied to test server as we can with beta.
I have been in the last two beta's and one of the things I really enjoy with them is the unique chance to meet some of the players you have noticed on boards and a lot of the players I have met in beta I often chat with via xtells now because I talked to them in beta.
Comment Posted by: TheFonzz on December 16, 2005 02:39 PM
Any feedback re: eqplayers.com. I does not seem to display some chars - guilds etc. correctly.
Comment Posted by: Loral on December 18, 2005 11:57 AM
Make sure you type "/eqplayersupdate" from within EQ to make sure your stats are right.
I'll be talking about EQ Players in Monday's article.
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