The Great Depths Reitemization
by Loral on November 21, 2005
Last week SOE released a patch that upgraded over 1000 items in the Depths of Darkhollow expansion. These upgrades were limited to single-group non-monster missions and drops in static zones off of random or named beasts. This is the largest upgrade in equipment that any expansion has ever received and SOE made the intent clear:
"After DoD launched, we saw a lot of feedback from players that non-raid loot rewards weren't't appropriate for the difficulty of the content. Carefully evaluating the cases players brought up led us to audit the model that has been used for itemization for several expansions now."
"The old itemization model was based around the top end single group gear being roughly 50% of the stats of top end raid level gear. This worked fine when it was first implemented, but as stats have increased, so too has the gap between raiders and non-raiders. Since content is tuned with player power in mind, this has caused a growing gap in the difficulty of expansion zones, in turn leading to the problems players have been reporting."
"After a lot of evaluation on the potential impact, we decided to change the itemization model to bring single group gear closer to the level of raid attainable gear. Beyond providing more tangible upgrades in the expansion, this change should also have a number of positive effects on the game as a whole and is something we will continue to use when making items in the future."
You can read the full report over at Caster's Realm or Samanna.net.
Equipment receive an average of about 125% to 150% upgrade in statistical power, mostly in hitpoints and mana. Few focus, combat, or regeneration effects were modified except in cases where the rewards dropped in the wrong paths. For example, some Hive-level missions dropped Corathus-level loot.
The boards lit up with responses, both positive and negative as usual. One post, DoD Upgrades Went Too Far discusses the issue of single-group loot eclipsing raid loot in Planes of Power.
To me, this clearly shows just how out of proportion the loot has been over the past four years. Few complained very long when better Kunark single-group loot dropped than that received off of old-world dragon raids. Few complained when Velious single group loot outperformed Kunark loot. Only Planes of Power offered such powerful loot and at such extreme quantities; thirty six 150 to 200 hp and mana drops in a single Plane of Time raid; that players had little choice but to raid in Planes of Power even four years after the expansion's release.
This new loot opens up a lot of opportunity. For one, single group players now have a clear and long line of progression in level, alternative advancement, content, and equipment without ever having to raid. Play time is now the only factor in the advancement of single-group hunters.
This also offers up alternative equipment progression areas for guilds or raiding groups. Instead of farming the same raids over and over to gear up enough people for the next step, guilds can augment their raid rewards with single group items in high end DoD hunts. This new jump in power should be able to take guilds beyond Plane of Time and into the deeper Gates, Omens, Dragons, and Depths raids. As individual power grows, the opportunity for pick-up raids increases as well.
This jump in power also opens up more content in old worlds for non-raiders such as the MPG trials and the Ikkinz expeditions.
Not every item received a proper upgrade. With fifty missions, five static zones, and over one thousand items, a few slipped through without upgrades. For example, two of the four rewards on the the Jarzarrad the Prophet missions were upgraded to 210 mana items but the other two, the rewards for the harder two missions in the set, stayed at their original 150. I expect we will see these reported inconsistencies addressed in the next patch.
Some items seemed to improve a bit too much. A humorous post by my friend, the Kyv, states that the Gear Gap between Raiders and Casuals has gone too far in the other direction. He cites two new augments dropping in Illsalin and Dreadspire with well over 100 hitpoints and mana. These two single-group acquirable rewards, though currently available to single-group raid-equipped players, offer better statistics than the rewards from raid encounters in the same zone. While closing the equipment gap between raiders and non-raiders is an admirable goal, the intent wasn't to trivialize raids within the same expansion. I expect we will see these augments change soon.
As the equipment on single-group missions improved, so did the population of these areas. Instead of most players focusing on easy monster missions to polish off a few AAs before a raid, players now hunt in difficult missions for excellent experience and nice usable loot.
This latest patch also tuned the difficulty of the missions in Depths of Darkhollow to offer a smoother curve of progression. The intent is for single group hunters to have a smooth line of progression from easier missions through the harder ones. With around fifty single group missions, the progression path and the loot will help steer players through a long range of missions and story arcs instead of focusing them on only one area like the Faerie monster mission.
Monster missions also received some updates. SOE lowered the experience of easier monster missions such as Queen Noknok's Tomb and released two new monster missions, one in Paw and one in Solusek A. Monster missions are in danger of the creator problem in Dragons of Norrath. The Creator mission offered the best reward for the fastest mission. Instead of trying out every mission available in Dragons, players focused on the one that offered the best reward for the smallest effort. Even those wishing to try other missions often had to choose between hunting the Creator or not hunting at all.
Rashere, the lead designer, wrote a note on SOE's intent to offer scaling rewards based on popularity. As certain missions grow in popularity, their experience reward lowers and those on the least popular missions increases. This keeps players traveling across many missions instead of focusing on the same one.
This patch helped fix the largest problem in Depths of Darkhollow: low powered rewards. It also did much to improve the game overall. The power rift caused by large amounts of high powered equipment in Planes of Power has gone away. Single group hunters now have a clear progression to excellent items and the content their new power will make available. It also helps players gear up for higher-end raiding guilds and lessens the requirements of raiding guilds to gear up new members. This is a great change for Everquest.
Loral Ciriclight
19 November 2005
loral@loralciriclight.com
Comment Posted by: Naginata on November 21, 2005 10:05 AM
I agree, these are positive changes. Now it's time to balance those changes out by, at a bare minimum, doubling the xp reward in raids.
Comment Posted by: Loral on November 21, 2005 11:20 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to an AA reward for accomplishing a raid.
More and more I'm seeing raids that not only give an AA but give a unique AA with unique abilities. See the progression raids in Dragons of Norrath as an example. Thats experience for skills single-groupers can't even get.
Comment Posted by: Jack Clark on November 21, 2005 12:45 PM
Ok, picky, but it's either the augs received a 25-50% upgrade, or they were upgraded TO 125-150%.
Unless you meant the stats more than doubled?
Comment Posted by: Loral on November 21, 2005 03:04 PM
By the way, we have a winnner in our first ever Mobhunter contest: the Red Cross iPod giveaway. Thiasha SoulBlazer of the Rathe won herself a 1gb ipod shuffle for her donation of $50 to the Red Cross.
Comment Posted by: Jack Clark on November 21, 2005 05:09 PM
Great, now she can't write off the donation. :)
Comment Posted by: xsi on November 22, 2005 01:03 AM
Monster missions, imo, were nerfed too hard, and done so at the behest of the overly vocal hardcore players (who will no doubt show up to flame me for my opinion).
Nagafen and Remembrance were both nerfed by ~20-25% xp gain (from 103% of an aa to 78% for Remembrance). Considering they take my group of three roughly 45 minutes to win, the xp reward is now poor enough that they are not worth doing. It becomes a question of convenience (hey, we don't have to get buffs) vs. potential gains (loot, better xp, etc.) from other resources. Convenience alone is hardly a sufficient motivator.
As one poster pointed out earlier... at least they haven't completely overhauled the game twice, like they have in SW. Then again, this IS SOE... anything is possible, if it brings in cash.
Comment Posted by: Aarkan on November 22, 2005 01:21 AM
Star Wars Galaxies no longer exists. They shut down the servers April 27th 2005 as far as I'm concerned. Even if you don't view the first CU as the failure that it was you must agree that as of November 15th 2005 that "the last remnants of the old [game] have been swept away." I loved the first CU until it turned back into the same monotony that it was originally. That's a completely different story.
Now, I'm all for these changes. Doing the fairy mission over and over and over was boring, so I stopped. Maybe now people will move out and do the other missions too. I don't know though, either way I'll probably find myself doing things the old way just hunting in Velk's or TM until my buffs wear off completely. Either way, EQ is still the best there is.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on November 22, 2005 02:44 PM
XSI Wrote:Monster missions, imo, were nerfed too hard, and done so at the behest of the overly vocal hardcore players (who will no doubt show up to flame me for my opinion).
I did not really see many hardcore players complaining about the monster missions it was mostly groupers who thought that it was giving away or makeing the game weaker.
all the hardcore players were too busy farming AAs to complain about wanting a nerf ;)
Comment Posted by: Thiasha on November 22, 2005 04:11 PM
Jack Clark wrote: Great, now she can't write off the donation. :)
When i made the donation to the Red Cross right after the hurricane hit i did so without thought to writeoffs or such :)
When Loral held the contest and i entered it, it did make me wonder though how many EQ players that do have homes, computers to play on and money to pay for thier online entertainment, actually step outside this pixelated obsession of ours and make an effort no matter how small to help those less fortunate then ourselves. The imbalances of the haves and the havenots of the Real world far outweigh any perceived imbalances in a pixelated world.. to me anyway.
So tax writeoff be damned !! I will now have tunes while in my car .. YAY !
Thanks Loral !!
Thia
Comment Posted by: Utziel on November 23, 2005 04:50 AM
They did Nerf the MM's to much and they too will soon go the way of the Dodo ( LDON ). What is left in this expansion besides slow evolving items and more zones? The shrouds were a complete suck. Now the MM are killed off. And yes there was a Very vocal group of players complaining about MM's. I had to grind AA's so everyone else has to. Just because you did it a particular way doesnt mean it was the correct way. Dinosaurs went extinct ya know.
Comment Posted by: wayward on November 23, 2005 05:52 AM
Sorry to the ones who feel the MM exp was hard. I personally think they weren't hit hard enough. They are an awful blight on EQ. Getting an AA in 30 mins playing a level 20 orc/fairy with absolutely 0 risk is not the way EQ should be played. They might as well just added a /ding command with a 30 min reuse timer.
As for the items, I think while they're boosted quite a bit, it is sort of necessary at this point. However, I remember doing those mission and as a qvic+ geared group, they weren't exactly easy. So for any casual, bazaar gear people who could beat them, good on ya.
Comment Posted by: Loral on November 23, 2005 07:40 AM
High-level players were able to pull in an AA of experience in 15 minutes in Fire with a trivial challenge for over three years now. Now this capability is available to everyone. It should always be more profitable to hunt in the highest and most powerful zones (and it is, I get an AA every 15 to 20 minutes in the Hive instances) but there's nothing wrong with giving players a quick nice way to get some experience.
Comment Posted by: doesn't matter on November 24, 2005 11:44 AM
"but there's nothing wrong with giving players a quick nice way to get some experience"
Sure the is someting wrong with that. It prevents the "ubers" from feeling so special and the raiders from being in totatl charge of a dying game.
Keep throwing bones only to the top 5% and lets just see how long that 5% can keep the servers online.
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on November 25, 2005 04:28 AM
Is there any Everquest related topic that can be debated without someone trying to make it "uber vs. casual"?
Comment Posted by: Skuz on November 25, 2005 06:10 AM
[quote]"but there's nothing wrong with giving players a quick nice way to get some experience"
Sure the is someting wrong with that. It prevents the "ubers" from feeling so special and the raiders from being in totatl charge of a dying game.[/quote]
This would be a funny line in sarcasm IF it were true, for most it's just a fact of life they are better geared.
[quote]Keep throwing bones only to the top 5% and lets just see how long that 5% can keep the servers online.[/quote]
I am certain that SoE like any sensible business does what it can to entertain the broadest base of customers it can, there is a huge wealth of currently existing content for non-raiders & each expansion adds more for them, DoDh with the recent loot revamp is a plain statement of intent that it wants to appeal to a broader base by opening up gearing opportunities to group players.
Rather than just complain & moan come up with a formulated plan of suggestions that are workable, constructive criticism is valuable.
Comment Posted by: Fred on November 28, 2005 02:42 AM
SOE poll:
We polled the community:
What have you enjoyed most so far about the newest expansion, Depths of Darkhollow?
Monster Missions (37%)
New Alternate Advancement Abilities (22%)
Spirit Shrouds (16%)
New Missions (9%)
New non-player characters (4%)
New Zones (4%)
New items (3%)
New Spells (3%)
New Tradeskill recipes (2%)
Evolving items (1%)
Comment Posted by: wormy on November 28, 2005 04:41 AM
Only one problem with items in DoDH (Task/Missions one-timer).
SoE did a lazy job and divided the chars in casters and melees.
Too bad, there are melees with blue mana (formerly known as Hybrids and Bard) and the others with yellow mana. The items are made primarly for melees with yellow mana and often I'd preferred the caster one over the melee one (being a ranger). And sometimes eventhis is not true: Augments for casters: Mana/Endurance, Melee: HP - End should be on the caster one.
Looks like nobody at SoE is able to see the "whole picture"(c)(tm) of this game anymore - new items are down to "copy&paste"(c) with no understanding anf thought at all.
Comment Posted by: redcloud on November 28, 2005 01:10 PM
Here's some constructive criticism.
Fire Zajeer today. Not tomorrow, not in a week. Today.
Put in place someone that actually cares about what he does and has a semblance of communication skill. And that doesn't lie straight into your face. That would be nice too.
Hire someone from WoW that actually has a clue of what the word funny or fun means. 'cause the current team has gone out of its way to make DoD a pita. DoD raids a pain of wanna be console conditionned reflexes. Raid gear a joke and overhall the feeling that EQ is a dead shell. Empty. Void of any kind of creativity in a POSITIVE sense. Not some new loop to jump.
Hire someone that has the balls to invest into new graphics 'cause right now they are a shame.
Hire at the top someone that isn't about shelfing the next tooth brush. It's MMO. Not some tasteless commodity.
Comment Posted by: xsi on November 28, 2005 03:16 PM
Wow... harsh post. And, for the first time ever, I actually agree with everything you say, Redcloud.
Well, with one caveat; I never like to call for someone to be fired. I think Zajeer is a bad item designer and a horrible communicator, but I'd suggest that part of the issue is that he seemingly has carte blanche to do whatever he wants within the game system. Rather than firing him, I'd appoint someone to manage him directly, and see if the situation can be improved without having to fire anyone.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on November 28, 2005 05:15 PM
I seriously doubt any amount of supervision will turn complacent mediocrity into honnest thorough responsible achievement. He has won. People that hate him enough will leave sooner than they would have without him. But there's quite a bunch that hate him so I truelly hope that karma will be a bitch with him and come and bite him in the ass.
Comment Posted by: Keisa on November 28, 2005 05:28 PM
Since when did blatant personal attacks become constructive?
Comment Posted by: xsi on November 28, 2005 07:02 PM
Eh, technically it's constructive because he is NOT just attacking zajeer, but is saying what sort of individual SHOULD be in charge of itemization and what sort of tacts those people should take to improve the game.
No?
Comment Posted by: Loral on November 28, 2005 08:57 PM
First of all, calling for the firing of someone you don't know isn't constructive criticism. Attacking someone isn't constructive. In your entire note you never outline any specifics of what you want fixed. Are you mad that raids are not original enough? Are you still upset about the raid-wide emote thing? Are you upset about loot? I don't know and it sure isn't clear from your note.
What exactly does Zajeer have to do with raid mechanics, raid difficulty, or game graphics? What exactly is WOW doing right that EQ's team should be doing?
I'll get back to Loral's rules of constructive criticism:
Be specific about what you like or don't like.
Focus on the topics or the issues, not on the people.
Avoid colorful metaphors - be specific and accurate, not cute.
Consider exactly what you want to accomplish with your feedback. What will help you get what you want?
We are not managers. We are not the employers of SOE. We pay to play a game.
Any future attacks on specific developers will be cut out. If you have a problem with something someone at SOE did or said, thats fine, but don't come here and say someone lied to your face when you are half a world away.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on November 28, 2005 09:50 PM
Loral Wrote:What exactly does Zajeer have to do with raid mechanics, raid difficulty, or game graphics? What exactly is WOW doing right that EQ's team should be doing?
I can personally tell you what I am hateing at the moment. and that is events that wipe your entire raid for one mistake.
Harsh events that intentionally wipe your entire raid while provideing lesser degrees of reward then you can get from other content that is less harsh
I personally think you should be able to make a mistake or two on some raids that might take a couple hours set up to completion, proveing no room for error just creates unneeded tension in guilds and could eventually lead to raiding guilds breaking up down the road due to the stress of having these one mistake=death raids.
Comment Posted by: Loral on November 28, 2005 10:12 PM
You're close but still not specific. Naggy isn't like that. Trakanon isn't like that. Avatar of War isn't like that. In fact, most raids aren't like that.
What raid or raids are you talking about specifically? What specifically happens that you don't like?
I know that Mata Muram is like what you describe but thats the only one I know of. I haven't heard about DoD raids yet, really. Do they REALLY fail you after one single mistake? Give examples.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on November 29, 2005 04:44 AM
Give me a break Loral. That was a CLICHE.
I didn't repeat myself because the problems have been pointed out for more than a year now.
You of all people should know that I have already explained myself numerous times on SoE boards and sometimes here.
I have tens of posts on SoE forums pointing them out. There are other places where people communicate about what goes on than SoE forums or public ones and you get to know pretty well what kind of people you're dealing with. Don't come and sell me how nice in RL they are. What the person is and what the dev does are too entirely different things. Someone can be perfectly nice and be a failure at the job he does. He's still nice but the company should put someone else to get the job done. Period.
What you don't understand Loral, is that people spent a year trying to communicating what isn't working. To no avail. Other people like me that have a true love for this game have wasted hours posting specifics.
The only conclusion? It's a waste of time with these people. Hence the post.
The amount of energy spent by players to provide constructive feedback has been snobbed and scoffed at for so long and so often there's no point trying really. Just ask around for old timers still playing and see for yourself.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on November 29, 2005 05:25 AM
Loral Wrote:I know that Mata Muram is like what you describe but thats the only one I know of. I haven't heard about DoD raids yet, really. Do they REALLY fail you after one single mistake? Give examples.
first of all.. you cant compare content that can be single grouped to the latest content :) so throw Naggy Trak and AoW out the window.
I would say starting with OMM,, but definitly not limited to him. Vishimtar can cause a wipe if one person is not on the ball.. so can the Queen Sendaii event. and any event where death is penalized beyond reason.
Comment Posted by: Loral on November 29, 2005 07:07 AM
"What you don't understand Loral, is that people spent a year trying to communicating what isn't working."
Has SOE not heard you at all or do they simply not agree?
"Don't come and sell me how nice in RL they are. What the person is and what the dev does are too entirely different things."
When did I do that?
"Someone can be perfectly nice and be a failure at the job he does. He's still nice but the company should put someone else to get the job done. Period."
What does Zajeer have to do with the problems you mention?
"The amount of energy spent by players to provide constructive feedback has been snobbed and scoffed at for so long and so often there's no point trying really."
Than what was the purpose of your original post? What did you expect to accomplish?
"I would say starting with OMM,, but definitly not limited to him. Vishimtar can cause a wipe if one person is not on the ball.. so can the Queen Sendaii event. and any event where death is penalized beyond reason."
Again, we're getting closer but still vague. Why not say "when Vishimtar kills somone, it spawns a wrath that then has to be handled as well as all the other nasty stuff that Vish deals out. When this happens, if we're already losing people, its likely we are not going to be able to handle them."
I have another interview I will be posting soon that talks about this very topic and the topic of raiding in EQ in general. One of my questions directly goes to the question you brought up. It's likely you will not like the answer you receive but you can't say they didn't hear it. There's a big difference between not listening and not agreeing.
Comment Posted by: wayward on November 29, 2005 09:21 AM
There is indeed a big difference between not listening and not agreeing. I would say SOE most of the time is not agreeing with people. It's their game, their "vision".
So, people can bitch and moan or then can take the money elsewhere. Once enough people do this, they will take action, otherwise it was only a minority making noise.
Personally, I cancelled my 3 accounts about a month after DoD was released. My dissatisfaction with the "new EQ" made me take this action. My protest is insignificant, maybe I'm in the minority, but if enough people who complain actually did something about it then SOE would take notice. Otherwise you whiners can stfu and gbtw.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on November 29, 2005 10:09 AM
I will stfu and have cancelled so no biggie.
Comment Posted by: Keisa on November 29, 2005 10:16 AM
Ah, the life of a developer. You couldn't pay me enough to do a job like that.
No matter what decision they make on anything, some people will like it and others will not. The ones that like it will go off and play the game and generally enjoy it. The people that don't like it will bitch and moan and call them a liar and demand they lose their job. I've seen it in every single MMO I've played.
That's the sad state of MMOs.
His job isn't to make you, Redcloud, happy. His job is to make a game that is most beneficial for the most people in the game.
Sometimes devs make bad decisions, just like every single person, including yourself. However, it isn't made in a vacuum, and it isn't made by one person. It's made by a team of people that are working to make the game the best they know how to do. Firing one person will probably not substantially change the direction of the game, at least for a time.
At times, the developers do make policy changes, like the recent change in on their decisions on itemization of single groupable content. That was a huge, and I think beneficial, change to the game. It was made because of a lot of commentary from the community, which demonstrates how wrong you are in your assertion that they don't listen to the community.
Just because the game isn't changed to suit YOU does not mean that it is wrong. They cannot suit everyone, as adamant as you are on your side is someone just like you on the exact opposite side of the argument.
Your comments provided no benefit. You did not address issues. Instead, you just attacked the developers, pure and simple.
Frankly, if I were a developer, I'd move the issues YOU address to the bottom of my to do pile. I wouldn't be inclined to address issues brought up by rude indignant people. Sadly, every issue they have to address has someone like you crying about it.
Keisa
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on November 29, 2005 10:27 AM
Heh sure, go for it. I worked with devs with years but sure do tell me how they function P)..
Whatever floats your boat. I don't really care nor will it matter for me. ))
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on November 29, 2005 10:35 AM
I grant you that: there will be allways two sides of every decision, be it for MMOs or anything else.
Then there will be people that will use that obvious observation to do whatever they deem fit for them.
Does it have to be the best choice for the product?
Does it have to be for the customer?
Here we will disagree and frankly if you are dev with an attitude, you're in a wrong job with a MMO audience. If you can't take the heat, move out of the kitchen. Not a novel concept.
Comment Posted by: Keisa on November 29, 2005 10:45 AM
"Heh sure, go for it. I worked with devs with years but sure do tell me how they function P).."
Well, you aren't working with them anymore are you? You quit doing that when you said "Jump," and they didn't.
Keisa
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on November 29, 2005 11:22 AM
Wrong I still do.
"His job isn't to make you, Redcloud, happy. His job is to make a game that is most beneficial for the most people in the game."
That is very much open to debate if it has been done.
"Sometimes devs make bad decisions, just like every single person, including yourself. However, it isn't made in a vacuum, and it isn't made by one person."
That is exactly what I'm getting at: decisions look very much like being made in a vacuum. AAs in a vacuum. Spells in vaccuum.
"It's made by a team of people that are working to make the game the best they know how to do. Firing one person will probably not substantially change the direction of the game, at least for a time."
If the guy is working disconnected from what happens around, I disagree.
School me some more if that pleases you but the bottom line is: you are not going to convince me of anything. I've put up with EQ going whichever way the dev team wished to be and sticked to it for more than 6 years. I don't have a problem with a dev having his own ideas and following them. At least when devs have ideas.
See you in 6 months and we'll see how lively EQ still is in its current form.
PS: the group level itemization was so obviously weak compared to risk that boosting it up was a no brainer. Your example has no merit.
Comment Posted by: Keisa on November 29, 2005 02:38 PM
“Wrong I still do.”
Really? I’m guessing you like being in adversarial situations considering your considerable charm in “working with” with people.
“See you in 6 months and we'll see how lively EQ still is in its current form.”
That’s funny. I seem to remember someone posting something very similar to this oh say, 5-6 years ago. People predict the doom of EQ all the time. In fact, I seem to remember people making the same statements as you about those EQ gods that are making that awesome game that will supplant EQ in the next generation. Funny how they were stupid jerks back then and now are the next coming of the MMO world. I guess all the people that hated them back then have had a change of heart.
“PS: the group level itemization was so obviously weak compared to risk that boosting it up was a no brainer. Your example has no merit.”
I beg to differ. This was a significant change in policy. Without the company changing it’s policy on itemization, this could not have happened. It may have been obvious to you and me, and for that matter, the devs, but it required a decision change on a basic rule of the game. That has merit whether you choose to accept it or not.
There is an element that also reinforces my previous point. Though you apparently agree with this decision and consider it obvious, you cannot have missed the shitstorm it caused on EQLive as a ton of raiders there came on and prophesied the doom of EQ because of all the noobs that would level up in monster missions and gear up in DOD missions and quit the game when they found out they actually had to play the game for real. Why, some of those posts were almost as rabid as your post that kicked off this discussion.
My point had nothing to do with the fact that there are two sides to every argument. It is that there are people that get mad at the devs if the devs don’t bend to their will. They exist on all sides of any issue. The devs cannot make any decision without someone calling them names and demanding their resignation. None of these attacks are constructive or contribute to any debate on any issue.
Comment Posted by: Loral on November 29, 2005 04:10 PM
Ok, we've all had our fun. Let's stop the bickering and talk further improvements we'd like to see. Where are people having fun in Depths and where are they not?
Comment Posted by: Keisa on November 29, 2005 04:45 PM
I've been having a blast with the missions, spell arch and otherwise. The other night, we did the first of the Shadowwalker Dustspirit missions. We had no advanced information, had to use ranger tracking to find the NPC, and had an absolute blast.
It was refreshing fighting a boss mob without knowing anything about him. He had a few little surprises for us, which wiped us the first time around. We Regrouped and showed him a thing or two. Everyone's jaw dropped when we got the rewards. We went back the next night and did it again for other members of our guild.
We've worked through the 68 spell arch, and I love my little werewolf. We whacked the Seeker in Undershore a few times the other night and got most of our guild through this quest. Every night is a new adventure.
When I saw the poll listed above, my jaw dropped. I was stunned that so few people consider the new missions as enjoyable. They are far and away the best part of the DOD expansion. They are varied, tough, fun, and (after the retuning) rewarding.
Keisa
Comment Posted by: Tuppet on November 29, 2005 05:26 PM
i knew about the DoDH itemization revamps but it seems there has been a lot of discussion since Omens about Foci/itemization...
http://tinyurl.com/73pnr (druid)
as examples
- hybrids need melee and caster foci
- casters had foci split into detrimental + beneficial
- DoT foci
- top-end raids don't have top-end loot/foci (meaning, loot wasn't clear upgrade, or sometimes worse, than last expansion's loot)
etc...
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on November 29, 2005 05:51 PM
As many have mentionned:
- gear design isn't coherent
- item designer has an attitude problem
- raid prep time and access is a pita
- raid mechanism like emotes (jumping loops) are a pita
- needing sound cues to know what to do INDEPENDENTLY of your class in raid should never have existed. That is independent of game "skills" be it ability to play one's class or gear
- evolving items are a punishment, not something to look forward to
- raid mob difficulty/progression is odd to say the least
- increase in power through some spells is out of whack. 18-35k crits with one spell for 0 mana shouldn't be possible.
- AAs are mostly disappointing if not "odd" (GoM)
Last but not least: stats don't mean jack when AEs have regularly -450 neg resist, hate list based, zone wide effect, etc. Nothing seems to mean anything. Nor stats, nor dps, apart from warriors, about every possible line has been blurred between classes.
It's like putting EQ into a washing machine and pulling it out all garbled. It became mostly pointless.
Can some of DoD be entertaining? Of course. But for how long? Now that almost every drop before DoD single group mission and Anguish is outdated. That considerably shrinks the effective size of EQ.
To me the way they boosted group gear looks like their last card for non raiders. The pace to which one can deck up a toon has been shorten considerably. When people are done. Will they still play?
DoD gear failing raiders, how long will they keep banging their heads inside uqua2, that is demiplane? For nothing?
Comment Posted by: Loral on November 29, 2005 06:04 PM
Redcloud,
Which raids?
Which evolving items?
Which progression steps?
Which game mechanics?
Which spells?
Which AAs?
Give more examples and leave out the washing machine metaphors and you'd have useful and excellent feedback. Otherwise it looks like someone who is angry that their guild can't hold it together for a OMM or Queen Sendaii raid.
Also, given this thread, I am not sure we should be the ones to call out people on attitudes.
Comment Posted by: redcloud on November 29, 2005 06:14 PM
I'm sorry Loral but I read something from Zajeer that made me particularly angry and one time too many.
Comment Posted by: redcloud on November 29, 2005 06:50 PM
raid prep for queen sucks because of video lag making people miss the bridge for one
zone out of dreadspire heavy hitter for another
the capacity of training DS zone in easily
DS skells, Vule access "quest" ad nauseam
I'm sorry I don't have the name of the evolving items on top of my head but those were underwhelming for the effort.
some various instances where late arrivals will train people at zone in of instance with see invis or just merely unsafe (became less of problem with time but still needless hassle). It doesn't add to the game value to me to make raid/instance zone-ins or outs unsafe, just a pita.
the need for levitate in general on top of invis AND invis to undead
The five raids before demiplane don't look much progressive to me. In particular Queen and Draygun. Other just totally boring. Not about how people perform as a class but just how good they are at not screwing an "artificial" mechanism. And the guild had all them dead before I stopped playing. So no it's not frustration at a failed raid, it's sadness at seeing yet anothing console jumping loop idea dictating success. Bit of the same thing with Vule. But at this rate it's going to be a long list since the intent was stated to do more of that style of mechanism and I just find it unimmersive. That's all.
New wiz DD is probably the biggest dps increase bar none in a long time.
0 mana 18-35k makes you wonder what crossed the dev mind when he did that AA.
To pick a few things without even mentionning my own class. That said I'm not angry about the game, I stopped playing. I had seen die Mata and all DS entrance raids died to the guild before I left. So no anger there either. But impunity to do and undo things or just not do them just because, yes, that annoys me to no end. That said, enjoy yourself with all the freshness you can find in EQ, I failed to find it in DOD.
Comment Posted by: redcloud on November 29, 2005 06:55 PM
One last though: those people are PAID to be professional at what they do even if it is a MMO.
It's not the fact that someone disagrees with me or not that is annoying, it's the lack of professionalism in the action or inaction or words.
They get paid, we pay. Let's not reverse the roles.
Comment Posted by: Redhenna on November 30, 2005 03:26 AM
From Redcloud:
"- gear design isn't coherent"--it has it's odd moments, but overall, outside DoDh raid gear, there is now actually a very nice flow of progression for nonraiders to some exceptionally nice gear.
"- item designer has an attitude problem"--this strikes me as the pot calling the kettle black. No offense, but you have been really...cranky in your posts here.
"- raid prep time and access is a pita"--I have not seen all the DoDh raids by far, but mostly, they require people to understand how to move thru zones...this is not an unreasonable requirement for raid guilds. Can't comment on prep time.
"- raid mechanism like emotes (jumping loops) are a pita"--Darn SoE for making people actually have to pay attention during raids.
"- needing sound cues to know what to do INDEPENDENTLY of your class in raid should never have existed. That is independent of game "skills" be it ability to play one's class or gear"--Sound triggers came out after DoDh, so I doubt that people actually NEED sound cues...they just make things easier.
"- evolving items are a punishment, not something to look forward to"--The intent of evoloving items was to offer another way to progress, which is something many people wanted. I admit to being extremely disapointed in evolving items so far, but the concept is sound.
"- raid mob difficulty/progression is odd to say the least"--This seems to be true to a certain extent.
"- increase in power through some spells is out of whack. 18-35k crits with one spell for 0 mana shouldn't be possible."--This happens pretty much every expansion, but overall, I have not seen any huge changes in balance from the spells. Yes, some classes benefited nicely, but overall, things are not that much different from pre-DoDh.
"- AAs are mostly disappointing if not "odd" (GoM)"--as a warrior, I found my AA set to be exceptionally nice.
------------------------
DoDh is far from perfect, but right now, I would consider it a better than average expansion, with great promise still. Biggest isues are with raid gear, little incentive to group in the noninstinced zones, the afk experience problem, with players getting PLed thru MM's without ever leaving PoK.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on November 30, 2005 05:07 AM
"some exceptionally nice gear" that is part of the not coherent but I guess that's in the eye of the beholder
"pot calling the kettle black" I totally agree. But as I said, he's the professional being paid. He's NOT allowed to have an attitude problem within his work. I on the other hand am the paying customer. Would I have this attitude normally? no. But after more than a year of dealing with him you can bet that I do, aggravated. And I'm saying out loud what many think and don't say it openly.
People understand very well how to reach raid zone. it's the sheer time needed from pok to raid zone-in, the need of levitate, the video lag that make people fail to reach queen bridge, invis+ ivu, etc. Those things are unnecessarily cumbersome. They aggravate people needlessly.
People used sound cues with eqwatcher. SoE just implemented it within the game. The fact that people turn to sound cues to track raid "events" IS the issue. It's the type of raid mechanic involved that is artificial and unimmersive.
You can make people pay attention WITHIN the scope of their class. Artificial cues to make people watch event xyz are tedious. They bring NOTHING to the interest of the raid. To resort to that kind of trick instead of making the raid itlself interesting is not going to make it any fun, at least to me.
Yes, I liked the concept of evolving items but the amount of time needed is too much and even the end result is for many raiders underwhelming: back to people problem number 1.
No, not every expansion makes bots more powerful than fully decked mains due to 1 spell done in a couple of days and 1 aa. That isn't true. Some casters dps after and pre dod is nowhere near the same. Is that nice for them? sure. Is that balanced? I very much doubt it. While weapons that depend from the item guy, are very much underwhelming. Spells/AA/items/content in a vacuum. Back to square one.
Possibly because warriors are the baseline of the game and so crucial to the "power" of a raid, your AA received more attention and are more polished.
But honnestly I believe all this has been debated many times. That's the reason why I'm not convinced it's even worth rehashing: I don't think it will make a difference nor will it matter.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on November 30, 2005 10:43 AM
I just have to comment that "Simon Says" raid cues and EQ2's "Heroic Opportunities" sure seem to have a lot in common. "When X happens you have Y seconds to hit Z key" keeps people from going AFK, sure. And increases the probability of failure, no doubt about that. But it requires no tactics, planning or just plain thought whatsoever. What "skill" is being rewarded here? In what sense is it "hard"?
Comment Posted by: lsdfjsld on November 30, 2005 03:38 PM
the key difference between 'simon says' and 'heroic oppotunities' is simon says are PENALITIES and heroic oppotunities are BENEFITS.
Comment Posted by: Teory on November 30, 2005 04:57 PM
I think a big reason that a lot weren't using the new zones is that it was hard to know what level of gear you needed for what zone. Back when things were more tied to levels than gear you had a better idea of a good hunting spot. Now you don't really know if you need a 15khp tank or if you can survive with a 9k one.
I plan on starting some of the missions as well, but I guess I'm a bit of a suck in wanting to know which ones we need a perfect group for and which we can just go and die horribly in :)
Comment Posted by: Prathun on November 30, 2005 09:10 PM
Hurdles such as the hazards in the Trial of Foresight, the chasing cursecallers in Inktu`ta, or the DTing gargoyles of Vule are ways to keep as many people as possible engaged and active during the raid. It's no secret that I've pushed for encounters that keep all people present occupied. I'm firmly against raids that fall on the shoulders of a warrior and CH rotation while everyone else turns on their auto-attack and goes AFK for a half hour until it's time to roll on loot.
End-game raids must be extremely challenging, for reasons that should be self-evident.
There is a razor-thin sweet spot of difficulty I aim for when tuning an end-game raid. The challenge has to be high enough that a wipe will occur if too many mistakes are made. This means the penalty for not off-tanking an add, missing a critical heal, taking too long, not curing a detrimental effect, letting the MT die etc needs to heavily contribute to a failure.
I'm all for forgiveness, and giving people a second chance. I can't think of any raid I did where one mistake is a guaranteed failure. There are outs - you can mez the wraith adds in Vish, you can rez people that catch a Hatchet axe to the head, there's a buffer (albeit slim) of mistakes you can make in Sister's. But at some point, a tough raid needs to shut you down for a sloppy execution.
You need to fail and start over again.
-Prathun
Comment Posted by: Teremar on December 1, 2005 12:52 AM
"the key difference between 'simon says' and 'heroic oppotunities' is simon says are PENALITIES and heroic oppotunities are BENEFITS."
Not getting a benefit you could have received is a penalty, especially if the encounter was balanced on the assumption that you would have that benefit. I'm not buying that one at all.
I'm all for things being hard and mistakes having consequences. But to me "hard" means "requires thought or tactics." If its entirely obvious WHAT to do in a given situation and the only challenge is doing it fast enough, that's not hard in my book. Just brainless button-mashing.
The best challenges require both thought and attention. But the worst challenges require complete attention and no thought whatsoever. No one enjoys that.
Comment Posted by: Keyvin on December 1, 2005 01:25 AM
I play Wow. There is an epic gear gap there that is growing (terribly) before the first expansion. All that is coming down the pipe is raid content.
In two expansions, WoW will be EQ.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on December 1, 2005 12:59 PM
"The best challenges require both thought and attention. But the worst challenges require complete attention and no thought whatsoever. No one enjoys that."
That's exactly it:
Avoiding the queen during the its fight is a straight plus in terms of needed tactic.
Going through Vule's success "mechanism" is a straight minus in terms of fun.
Mezzing Queen's adds, killing fast enough, etc are all tied to execution, proper off-tanking, etc. Those are mechanism that tie positively to game experience, skill and gear.
Draygun "hp" emote is not.
Mata "random" emote is not.
Some of the top end fights aren't particularly complex. Actually because of those artifical mechanisms they are somewhat limited. The difficulty being into whatever loop one has to jump.
Vish is not a CH fest of single tank. Many classes have to do their thing right, yet there is PLENTY to do for everyone WITHIN their class attributions. That is what I miss and failed to find in almost any DOD raid.
Basically I'm sure even the current crew at SoE can do better than resorting to Draygun/Vule/Mata style of "tricks" to keep everyone awake. Besides, once someone failed said trick, it's rare to not fail those fights. 100% attention on a 30min fight failed over an artificial trick, it's not fostering progression or skill to me: it's more boring than a MA + CH chain fight.
PS: It cracks me up to be responded from a dev, and THE raid dev, the single and only time on Mobhunter after I've quit. Ironic but appreciated P).
Comment Posted by: Prathun on December 1, 2005 05:59 PM
Not using a heroic opportunity robs you of the opportunity to do more damage, or gain a buff. That's a penalty. Successfully negotiating the mechanics of an encounter and winning gains you loot and flags. That's a benefit.
There was a guildmate of mine that left on hiatus for several months due to RL obligations. He came back and that day an item dropped that he was very interested in. He didn't win it. Our loot council awarded it to someone else with a better recent attendance. No big deal... I thought. Except he yelled at me for several hours that evening about how he was treated unfairly. He felt he was PENALIZED for circumstances not under his control.
Was it a penalty? From my point of view, no. It was simply lack of a reward. From his point of view, hell yes. He was penalized.
So what's the difference between a benefit and a penalty? Perception.
-Prathun
Comment Posted by: Prathun on December 1, 2005 06:16 PM
"Vish is not a CH fest of single tank. Many classes have to do their thing right, yet there is PLENTY to do for everyone WITHIN their class attributions. That is what I miss and failed to find in almost any DOD raid."
Redfang might be the closest encounter to Vishimtar in Darkhollow that people have seen so far. There's mobs to offtank and crowd control, plenty of damage to heal, and plenty of hit points for the DPS classes to burn down.
For variety, I used many raid mechanics in Dreadspire and the Demi-Plane of Blood, while also giving each fight a unique twist to differentiate it from every fight that's come before. There are warning -> penalty mechanics in several of the raids, but not all of them. With a few small exceptions, they tend to penalize the player failing to heed the warning, and a single oops will hardly ever wipe an entire raid. It might contribute to it, but never guarantee.
Redfang and Graniteclaw are straight-up fights, no hazards.
Hatchet has hazards, but player feedback has suggested that he's the most fun raid in the zone thus far.
Wailing sisters is a completely unique encounter that doesn't even involve fighting the focal NPCs.
Thanks for the feedback. I do agree that a single player failure that wipes a raid is harsh, and I also agree that the Simon Says mechanic is a spice not to be used in excess. Can't promise it won't show up in the future, but it will be used sparingly. =)
-Prathun
Comment Posted by: Skuz on December 2, 2005 06:49 AM
Thanks for posting that Prathun, that actually allayed a lot of what i saw as "going wrong" in terms of raid mechanics hitting a dead-end of imagination.
Like you say raid encounters hinge on a razor's edge of balance, and that's where re-tuning come into force to balance out stuff that isn't working well.
If I have a gripe it is a very specific one, Korlach Lair 4 (widdlethorpe arc) this is a very tough encounter, large assist ranges, tough mobs, lots of underwater fighting ( too much makes you start to get sick of the zone, needs a bit of land-based killing earlier to break it up a bit) fast repop timers mean you must be on the move a lot & you are absolutely tied to having an enchanter in your team, even with an anguish geared+ crew this was a very stiff challenge (myself being the Only player not in anguish level gear or better in the group) often 5 or 6 mobs had to be cc, now all this actually makes the encounter, but the loot in this truly sucked versus the challenge involved in reaching it, 145hp gear in this was very weak, the mission would take an EXTREMELY skilled (we're talking way above & beyond normal)lesser geared group to complete fast enough to avoid repops.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on December 2, 2005 07:50 AM
Thanks for dropping by Prathun and for your insight.
I understand what you say although I won't agree about the comparison between lack of presence with lack of execution outide one's class "skills".
All of this is certainly a matter of perception but I would worry about side issues around the raid fight itself when people talk about demiplane, calling it uqua2 and for some aspects comparing DoD to GoD. (time to raid zone-in, tedium, levi+invis+ivu, see invis trash, etc)
Like having a bridge before or within a raid zone is fine. Falling off it is fine. See invis trash on it is not. Hazards that can knock out of a platform is fine. Ending into a bug warp loop because of it (vish) is not: the fine line between hostile environment and purposeful tedium.
Not that I hope to convince you though but if more button mashing can be avoided for the players to come, all the better for them.
Comment Posted by: Utziel on December 2, 2005 09:04 PM
Who cares bout RAIDING...... Not me !!!!!!!!!!!!
Fix the regular game first !!!! Its dieing fast people.
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on December 3, 2005 12:21 AM
"Fix the regular game first !!!! Its dieing fast people."
No. It's not. In fact, it's not dying at all.
Comment Posted by: Skuz on December 3, 2005 09:34 PM
[quote]Who cares bout RAIDING...... Not me !!!!!!!!!!!!
Fix the regular game first !!!! Its dieing fast people.[/quote]
Lmfao, the scratch in that particular broken record must be deeper than the grand canyon by now.
Comment Posted by: me on December 4, 2005 12:22 PM
""Fix the regular game first !!!! Its dieing fast people."
No. It's not. In fact, it's not dying at all."
Lets see, fewer people, fewer servers, longer time trying to find groups, no newbies. Hmm sounds like it is dying to me. Maybe not rapidly but in the world of business if you aren't growing you are dying.
Costs continue to escalate while gross receipts stay stagnant. You fail with that model.
Comment Posted by: Armarant on December 4, 2005 07:23 PM
Me wrote:Lets see, fewer people, fewer servers, longer time trying to find groups, no newbies. Hmm sounds like it is dying to me. Maybe not rapidly but in the world of business if you aren't growing you are dying.
Yep.. if your not ripping off your customers at every turn to make higher profits your definitly dieing ;)
now to address what you said..
1. you goto every server every day and ask. any newbies on?
2. you can use the GM command to check the total players on a server?
3. there are fewer servers because people complained enough to the point where sony said lets cut the server numbers in half. not because they needed to.
in the conclusion. unless you can actually provide hard facts your just flapping your lips in the breeze.
Comment Posted by: Utziel on December 4, 2005 10:14 PM
Yep.. if your not ripping off your customers at every turn to make higher profits your definitly dieing ;)
In a way you are correct. If the company is no longer raising prices or upgrading accordingly then yes it is Dying. Why invest in a product that is not growing? You let the product die and move on the the next new thing. They will just suck what they can from what is left withtout putting more big capital back in the game. If you know anything about buisness then it wouldnt come as a surprise to you. Companies are not in buisness to help anyone....they there to make money! Sorry to burst your bubble.
Comment Posted by: Aethn on December 5, 2005 01:37 AM
LOL .. year number 7 fast approaching and you guys are STILL saying Everquest is dying.
Seriously, stfu already. After 7 years of turning a tremendous profit that continues to bankroll 3 development studios in multiple states, you would think you asshats would just go away with your "Everquest is dying" bullshit.
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