Onward into the Depths
by Loral on September 20, 2005
Last Tuesday we found ourselves falling into the Depths of Darkhollow and seeing Everquest in an entirely new light. The message forums exploded with new information and strange new lingo. A lot of excited posts talked about the new monster missions and began decoding some of the longer quests.
Within all of this, SOE announced a new Community Summit focused on EQ in the Past, Present, and Future. I think that means "we want to talk about big issues and not get bogged down with class problems right now".
So here is the plan for the next couple of weeks. I planned to give Depths about two or three weeks before writing up a "Potholes of Depths of Darkhollow" article outlining some of the problems faced in this expansion but the new EQ Community Summit popped up and I have to write an Evil Agenda for that.
So this weekend I will publish a "Loral's Evil Agenda, September 2005" article. A week after that I will write up the results of the summit article and a week later I will write up the Potholes of Depths article.
The response to the new expansion has been generally positive. People seem to really like the monster missions and after the dozen of them I've done, I am still really excited about it as a new style of play. Future monster missions and some added features will no doubt make its way into this month's evil agenda.
One thing I found interesting about the monster missions is that the rewards received are pretty good at level 70, somewhere around Wall of Slaughter and Muramite Provingground level. These monster missions may be a good way for underequipped level 70 players to gear up to at least a 120 hp / mana baseline.
Depths departs from the mission center hub that we saw in Dragons of Norrath and that makes mission progression a bit more difficult to understand, discover, and conquer.
Each of the five main hunting zones; Corathus, Undershore, Stoneroot, Hive, and Illsalin; are of a set difficulty. The missions off of these zones are slightly harder than the difficutly of the hub zone. So Corathus missions should be easier than Ilislan missions.
The Mission NPCs, however, can be anywhere. So Hive missions are acquired in Corathus, while Illsalin missions are acquired in Undershore. Even more difficult is the ease with which players find Illsalin missions compared to the elusive Corathus Creep missions. One hopes that SOE can make the easier missions as easy to find as the harder missions.
My friends Gemdiver and Nanyea of Caster's Realm released an excellent Depths of Darkhollow Mission System that captures much of the known Depths missions and plans to include even more as they get more information.
Difficulty compared to the rewards received is a large topic right now. Personally I found the Illsalin missions to be very difficult even on "normal" and from what I heard, the loot rewards were low considering the power required to defeat it. This seems to be a common problem even for the "hard" missions. A lot of other players with whom I often debate on equipment gap issues agree that these missions should be dropping loot more on par with MPG trials and Qvic armor instead of low elemental quality. Hopefully we will see greater equipment rewards and lowered difficulties for "normal" missions.
Shroud progression came up as a problem as well. Players report having to kill up to two thousand NPCs to acquire the next shroud. Progression this slow is far more frustrating than it is rewarding so hopefully we will see this improved as well.
Other players have the opposite problem with some of the monster missions. Monster missions such as "Shadowmane Invasion", an excellent battle between two rival werewolf tribes, offer a far greater reward than most traditional hunting zones. In some cases players earned 2.5 AAs for about 20 minutes of work. Already I was beginning to get flashbacks to the dark days of constant Creator missions when I heard "this mission offers twice the reward, why would we do anything else?". No doubt a nerf is already in progress. I didn't buy this game to play one mission over and over. Each mission should offer an equal reward compared to the risk and effort.
Monster missions revealed another problem as well. Since players of any level can group together for a monster mission, the loot scales itself based on the level of your main character. However, one cannot learn what the actual power of that gear will be until one already loots it and leaves the mission. A quick change added the highest power of the rewarded item to that artifact's description so at least level 70 people know what they will receive, but it is still unclear to lower level players what they might win.
An ugly bug poked out its head with missions in general. Players who either zoned or went linkdead during the success of a mission found themselves unrewarded for the mission and locked out with a 56 day lockout timer. This problem seems common and the developers have already acknowledged it and are working on a solution. Hopefully this gets fixed soon.
I offer the following list of recommendations to SOE for initial improvement to Depths of Darkhollow:
- Lower the difficulty of the "normal" missions so pre-RS level 70 hunters can accomplish them.
- Fix the 56 day lockout bug.
- Continually monitor and ensure that mission rewards meet an appropriate balance. We don't want another creator.
- Offer appropriate rewards for the difficulty on normal missions. Gear rewards should be better than the gear required to defeat a mission.
- Make it easier to find Corathus Creep missions. Easier missions should be easier to find.
- Lower the requirements for shroud progression.
This weekend I will write up my fifth Evil Agenda to outline possible large-scale improvements to Everquest. This time, however, I am at a bit of a loss to come up with critical improvements to the game that haven't been answered in the past.
So this is your chance. If you have a large issue that you think needs to be handed to the developers, either send me a note or post your idea here. I will not take every request and you must convince me that this request is a game-wide issue not already addressed. Class issues are, of course, not going to be addressed here; seek your class representative to champion your cause.
Good hunting.
Loral Ciriclight
20 September 2005
loral@loralciriclight.com
Comment Posted by: bleh on September 20, 2005 03:15 PM
One thing I posted very early on for my guild was that this expansion will be one of the worst logistical nightmares for raiding and grouping.
Even moreso than gates which had difficult to reach areas which made managing the coming and going of group/raid members even more difficult.
Continuing on that theme, darkhollow has so far quite a few relatively difficult to get to missions/raids. Trying to get 40-50 folks to a raid out on the 'living bridges' in the hive, for example. Even the first couple level 70 group progression missions can be difficult to get to, if one person gets agro and dies, it can add 10-15 minutes to a mission before you even get started... if the entire group (or most of it) wipes, your lookin at 30 minutes or more easy of aggravating CR thru multiple see invis and/or see IVU mobs, before you even get to the mission.
Comment Posted by: Naginata on September 20, 2005 03:21 PM
The ease of some of the monster missions (I haven't any yet, personally... don't ask) has made one thing clear - xp gain gets faster every expansion. I know that's hardly groundbreaking, but there it is. Now I'm going to get a little off topic. Don't beat me Loral!
Now then, why haven't I done any monster missions? I'm too busy. I raid 4 nights a week for about 3 hours each night, and other than that, I'm not online. I get the most fun in the game out of raiding, and that's how I spend my time. Now then, in the current game, people at level 65-70 can get, at the very least, an AA an hour grouping, and can group for 100hp/mana gear without too much difficulty. The gear gap is a frequent topic here, and the monster missions are another chink in that wall between grouper's equipment and raider's equipment.
Let me get directly to my point: right now I'm raiding plane of time for gear with 150-200 hp/mana, and getting basically no xp out of it. I could group with my time and bring in 3AA/hour, and also probably get 120-150hp/mana gear out of the deal. I think that, as they offer new paths to quality gear for group-oriented people, they should raise the xp modifier for raiders, so that people like myself have a path to progression. It's safe to say that if it wasn't for raiding, I'd probably have 1k or 1500 less hp/mana, but have 2 more levels and at least 250 AA.
I think that, at the very least, the xp modifier for the raid box needs to be tripled immediately, with further scaling up based on raid difficulty. 1AA/3-5 hours sounds reasonable to me as a goal.
Comment Posted by: bleh on September 20, 2005 03:42 PM
I agree, raid exp sucks, and for those who primarily spend time raiding, there is very little time for exp'ing.
Increasing the raid exp would be very nice, I'd suggested a midway increase on the trash, and at a minimum of half an AA (EACH for the entire raid) for killing the boss or otherwise completing the raid.
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 20, 2005 03:44 PM
I'm going to be a hard sell on raid experience. As you said, it is already easy to experience hunt and gets easier every expansion. Take 30 minutes before a raid to do a monster mission and you'll earn another AA every evening you play.
Much like raiding became the only way to get the best equipment, single grouping is the best way to earn experience. It has always been that way and it is likely to always be that way.
It's better not to follow the experience or the gear and instead go where you have the most fun.
As far as the accessibility of Depths - with nothing but an invis potion I was able to see every zone except the last one. Nearly half the zones in Gates were locked behind raid-level content. Just up front that is already a big improvement. Even running to Tipt, Vxed, or the sewers was a real challenge back in the day. That was all before we could summon our bodies in the guild lobby if things got too nasty.
Dragons made it extremely easy to get into a mission and now Depths made it harder again. We'll have to see how people react to that. I'm not willing to condemn it before I see how it plays out a little more.
Comment Posted by: Naginata on September 20, 2005 04:08 PM
"Take 30 minutes before a raid to do a monster mission and you'll earn another AA every evening you play."
I could do that maybe once a week. It's an idea. Though, if I got tied up in a monster mission and was late to a raid, pretty sure the guild leader would come over to my house and wreck up the place.
"Much like raiding became the only way to get the best equipment, single grouping is the best way to earn experience. It has always been that way and it is likely to always be that way."
I'm not asking for raiding to become the best way to earn xp. I'm saying, if people can get 120 hp/mana stuff from grouping and 200 hp/mana stuff from raiding, is it too much to hope that we could get a fifth of the xp that groupers do? At least?
"It's better not to follow the experience or the gear and instead go where you have the most fun."
My philosophy exactly. That's why I'm the only officer in my guild who isn't level 70 yet, and why I have just over 100 AA points - because raiding is about a hojillion times more fun than grouping, for me. Unfortunately, this gap is starting to show, just as it would show in a group where all but one player were in Anguish gear while the odd man was in single group stuff.
Comment Posted by: bleh on September 20, 2005 04:29 PM
Loral you've been a proponent of 'short time span' advancement, mostly via grouping, however there is no reason why the could not be applied to raiding. I'm sure that your aware that even many raiders are time limited, and thus between chosing between exp time and raid time, many chose raiding.
The question then is, should they be penalized EXP-wise for time spent raiding vs single grouping?
Myself I would say that group should be 'better' exp returns than raiding, but that raiding should not preclude exp gain in such the manner as it currently does.
In other words, groups = superior exp + decent items, raiding = superior items + decent exp.
This is not currently the case. If you never exp'd outside of raids, you would have maybe 1-3 aa every couple weeks depending on the amount of raiding you do and how much trash killing is involved in said raiding.
In many cases, since the high end raiders tend to die alot during learning of encounters, this exp gain is even further offset due to rezs.
I don't think anyone is advocating that raiding becomes the premier source of exp for raiders, however it could be much better than it currently is, without making it preferred more than 'exp grinding'.
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 20, 2005 04:43 PM
If raiding becomes even a moderately good source for experience - what incentive is there for a raider to group?
I already have a hard enough time getting a tank during prime time hours to do a difficult mission. Take out experience as an avantage and there's no reason to group.
I agree about the importance of "casual raiding" and I plan to have a couple of things in my evil agenda about it (experience for raids won't be in there). I wouldn't be opposed to raiders earning an AA or something completing a raid as part of a mission. There was already some of that in Dragons. However, I'm probably not the guy you want championing for more better raid stuff (other than the stuff I mention above which is mainly raid gateway drugs and better opportunities for more people to raid).
Comment Posted by: bleh on September 20, 2005 04:54 PM
Hmm, explain then how its ok to require raiders to 'exp group' to get exp, but not require 'exp groupers' to raid to get items?
Comment Posted by: Naginata on September 20, 2005 05:11 PM
Game, set, and match.
Comment Posted by: Nyteshade on September 20, 2005 06:21 PM
The rewards of raiding is the satisfaction of defeating a high level monster & the best drops in the game.
The rewards of grouping is the best experience in the game and some drops (fairly decent if doing MPG trials).
Seems fair to me.
Comment Posted by: bleh on September 20, 2005 06:53 PM
I would agree to a certain extent, but that same or similar satisfaction can be obtained via the challenging single group tasks/missions/etc.
However, in most cases the 'exp grouper' gets the exp, good drops AND satisfaction.
Raiders get trivial amounts of exp, great drops (when its your lucky day to loot something), and satisfaction.
Again, I am certainly not advocating that raiding become the preferred method of exp gain for raiders (although I don't see any harm in that either), I am saying that raid exp should be better for EVERYONE who raids, not just full time raiders or part timer's, than what it currently is.
Comment Posted by: Blakyce on September 20, 2005 10:04 PM
The equipment gap between raiders and xp players already compensates for the lack of experience while raiding. People who raid have the gear and access to better geared groupmates which allows for a huge advantage in experience for time spent. This does not even include access to experience zones that the non-raider is locked out of. My anguish geared friend gets approximately twice the aa's per hour that I am able to attain. I believe that is more than enough compensation for time lost raiding.
Comment Posted by: Namime on September 21, 2005 03:39 AM
[quote]
However, in most cases the 'exp grouper' gets the exp, good drops AND satisfaction.
Raiders get trivial amounts of exp, great drops (when its your lucky day to loot something), and satisfaction.[/quote]
True, but a raider has the "freedom" to choose whether he wants to raid or group but an 'exp grouper' doesn't have the freedom to choose to raid unless he is in a raiding guild (and timing).
Comment Posted by: Glormane on September 21, 2005 05:49 AM
A few comments on your article and on the new expansion.
On the Summit you commented I think that means "we want to talk about big issues and not get bogged down with class problems right now".
If you set a poll up asking people what there biggest issues were, I think disattisfaction with how SOE treat their class may come up quite a bit. I am not saying its not a big emboiled mess, but if you ignore it, it wont go away.
On to the expansion. I have enjoyed it so far, I've only done one progression mission. All mobs were yellow, which made things pretty tough, but the xp was good. When we completed the mission casters got a 2%stun resist aug and Melee got a 15ac aug. Personally I have better from content 2+ expansions back.
In addition to the first time through the mission 6 chests popped! One on top of the other! As previously mentioned, the rewards were for us poor, having done the MPG group trials we already have alot better.
Still I found it more rewarding than the don missions, I must just like in game rewards.
I've only done 2 of the monster missions, the Nagafen one which is really fun, if you are Naggy. This bugged though as we only killed 95 of 95 raiders (one must have gated!) We still got the item but not the win or the xp.
The other is the infamous Werewolf mission. Theres a patch today, I imagine thats to fix the xp issue. A GM popped up on my server last night and 'disappeared' the Quest giver, so thats that.
Comment Posted by: Aceris on September 21, 2005 07:18 AM
Not all raiders have a huge equipment gap advantage. If you are in a casual raiding guild around EP/time level then its generally the case that all rewards for grouping are better than rewards for raiding. (It certainly is for me).
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on September 21, 2005 07:58 AM
Ok, Loral, what did you smoke today? P)
"Much like raiding became the only way to get the best equipment, single grouping is the best way to earn experience."
How are groupers entitled to better gear if raiders aren't entitled to better xp. Please explain.
"It's better not to follow the experience or the gear and instead go where you have the most fun."
And since this is a progression game, putting gear or xp where the fun (raid) is should be the right thing to do.
"As far as the accessibility of Depths - with nothing but an invis potion I was able to see every zone except the last one."
You should tell that to the upteenth corpse or train done near WW camp I saw when gathering for a raid. Evidenlty see invis mobs or undead mobs all over was the sick dev joke of the day P)
I want my playtime refunded for all the time I spent waiting at a zoneline. ))
"Nearly half the zones in Gates were locked behind raid-level content. Just up front that is already a big improvement."
IF, big if, you have something to do in said zone. If it's to run from place a to b and wait for lost people, dead people, naked people. So-so. P)
"Even running to Tipt, Vxed, or the sewers was a real challenge back in the day. That was all before we could summon our bodies in the guild lobby if things got too nasty."
Yeah I need to have someone explain to me why they learned from GoD when making Omens and DoN and forgot it all doing DoD. Really I don't understand how it didn't occur to them that some stuff was plain dumb.
"I'm not willing to condemn it before I see how it plays out a little more."
Travel is ok. Mobs at instance zone lines is not ok. Trains at instance zone lines neither. Fubared flags for raids, for progression missions, ditto. That stuff came out way not tested.
At least I could gather points for my alts with DoN. Or augs for me. Now we just get rotting no drop junk noone can possibly need if succesful for a given mission.
Comment Posted by: Quaras on September 21, 2005 08:40 AM
I actually really like the expansion and think that the Slipgear Gem quest was a great idea in terms of forcing or encouraging characters to explore the expansion.
My biggest complaint so far is that there is no progression tying all of the disparate threads of the expansion together. There is no benefit to completing all of the monster shrouds. There is no benefit to completing all of the monster missions. Instead, there are great elements thrown together without any rewards (even minor) toward character advancement.
It would be incredibly easy to link these together in an overarching quest -- even now after release -- but without such connections, the expansion really lacks any compelling reason after the first few weeks to do monster missions or shroud progression.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on September 21, 2005 01:41 PM
"It's better not to follow the experience or the gear and instead go where you have the most fun."
or
"If raiding becomes even a moderately good source for experience - what incentive is there for a raider to group?"
Note that the second implicitly assumes 1) people choose what to do based on incentives, not fun, and 2) we want raiders to follow those incentives and group, not go where they have the most fun.
Take your pick Loral, but you can't have both.
Personally I agree with #1, and would support giving enough raid xp that raiders will hit 70 and a decent amount of AA in a reasonable amount of time without having to do what they don't enjoy. Of course if the single-group content were as interesting as the raid content this would be less of an issue.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on September 21, 2005 02:22 PM
Yet there are people that have the time to raid and don't enjoy it.
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 21, 2005 02:35 PM
"Of course if the single-group content were as interesting as the raid content this would be less of an issue."
That's something I support a lot and plan to continue to ask for.
I'm seeing huge improvements in interesting single group encounters in Depths. I hope to see this continue.
Comment Posted by: Redhenna on September 22, 2005 05:59 AM
Some random thoughts:
First from the original article: "- Lower the difficulty of the "normal" missions so pre-RS level 70 hunters can accomplish them."
Please do not do it this way. For people at my level of progression, the difficulty in some of these has been a real pleasant experience, something we really needed. I would suggest alternatly to offer a new, 'easy' mission, for those who are as yet undergeared but want to get the spells/disc, and progress thru the missions.
On the subject of raid experience: I am a hardcore, Anguish level raider. I raid 6 to 7 nights a week, for 4 to 6 hours a night. The reward for this is I have better gear than the vast majority of players, and I get to see and experience content that they do not. As with everything else, there is a definate tradeoff. essentially, in return for the positives of better gear and more content, we have to commit more time, and some flexability in out online schedule(if the guild is raiding, you gots to be there), and we get less experience for our time actually raiding. This is fine, its by design, and it is approriate. You can think of it this way...if you got good experience, along with more content, and better loot, then the classic risk vs reward ratio would be too heavily tilted in favor of reward.
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 22, 2005 08:37 AM
"For people at my level of progression, the difficulty in some of these has been a real pleasant experience, something we really needed."
Thats what "hard" is for. Right now the difference between Normal and Hard isn't that great. Hard should be for raiders with Qvic+ gear and Normal should be for DON / Omens single group guys.
Last night I did the second of the Killead trials in Stoneroot Falls. I found it to be a pretty good mission at the appropriate difficulty up until we fought the last guy. The boss of that mission hit right around 2000 a hit; a difficult damage for anyone but a high-end tank to battle. Luckily we had a Time+ tank with about 14,000 hitpoints and 900 AAs or I don't think we would have been able to finish.
The reward was a pair of 90 mana gloves for casters and a 85 mana neck item for the rest of us. I seriously doubt a tank decked out in 85 hitpoint gear could have tanked that boss.
Not one of us kept the reward. All of us had something better than the reward given in that mission.
On that particular mission I would rather see the loot increased instead of the difficulty decreased although that boss did hit really hard for a 68 mission.
On the Illsalin missions, however, I really don't think they are defeatable with non-raid equipped players. It is probably too early to say that for sure and I am sure someone will tell me about a guy equipped in Dragons gear who succeeded but when I hear about shades hitting for 1900 in multiple NPCs, I can't see how most folks used to hunting Creator can stand up to that.
Right now my feeling is that the gear is too weak for the risk in a lot of these missions and in some, like illsalin and the bosses in older missions, the difficulty is too great for single-group equipped hunters on "Normal".
Comment Posted by: Oniadar on September 22, 2005 09:17 AM
Loral Said: "On the Illsalin missions, however, I really don't think they are defeatable with non-raid equipped players."
We did it, and we're far from a raiding guild. Our warrior does have over 1k AAs which helps (he's around 12 to 13k hp, over 2200 AC or so). We died a few times, evac'd a bunch of times but in a bit over 2 hours pulled out a win.
We found shades don't path back - so pull a few if you have to, then split the ones you have out front. Made it easier for us.
We're going to work on mission 4 tonight.
Comment Posted by: Aceris on September 22, 2005 10:51 AM
Loral,
Even the normal Ilsanin missions are meant to be significantly harder than Creator, or even RSS. That's what progression means. I would think you would be delighted to see more challenging single group content.
Someone who takes full advantage of DoN and RSS and mpg trials can easily be geared well enough for them.
Now that person would probabaly deserve better loot than these events currently award, and I wouldn't argue with the victory rewards for Ilsanin being pushed up to 175/175. The dropped rewards should be on a par with mpg trials.
I think they are seriously concerned about the mudflation implied by giving every level 70 with access to a decent group a strong piece of gear for every Ilsanin mission they can complete, without any need to farm them.
You do not need a 900AA, 14k tank to tank a 2k hitting mob. I've seen the subversion boss(hits 2.5k) tanked by an 11.5k knight (with full def AA). You need a slower and a backup healer (possibly the same person), but no-one said this was supposed to be easy.
Comment Posted by: Redhenna on September 22, 2005 02:08 PM
"Thats what "hard" is for. Right now the difference between Normal and Hard isn't that great. Hard should be for raiders with Qvic+ gear and Normal should be for DON / Omens single group guys."
This is just a slight diffeence in philosphy I think. We both want something that non raiders can do to progress here, I just think that should be accomplished by adding an easy option, leaving normal as it is now, and turning hard into something more difficult. As others have mentioned, normal now is doable by high end nonraiders, who have the AA's, and have good single groupable gear. I think this is appropriate.
As far as gear from these missions, I like the fact that a bunch include some clickies, as I think nonraiders need more access to fun clickies, and agree that for the difficulty, the rewards are subpar. I think that an easy setting, with the rewards that normal has now would be awesome. A casual, low AA Bazaar equipeed player might actually get some use out of these items. I don't think that you can scale up the rewards too much for the normal and hard missions tho. These are generally easier overall than a PG trial, so 200 hp/mana gear would be a little much.
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 22, 2005 02:59 PM
I was a bit shocked and dismayed to find better loot dropping on monster missions that are not gear dependent at all than on "normal" missions that still requierd quite a bit of gear.
I think its important to understand that there are four sets of difficulty already in these missions: Undershore, Stoneroot, Hive, and Illsalin. I think there are already easier missions than Illsalin, such as the ones before it, but unfortunately the gear there cannot help players reach the next tier. I dont think players equipped with 90 to 125 hp and mana gear can finish the Illsalin missions.
Maybe I'm wrong and maybe time will tell but I am still underwhelmed from the gear and overwhelmed by the difficulty in the single group missions.
Comment Posted by: bleh on September 22, 2005 03:03 PM
Maybe I'm wrong and maybe time will tell but I am still underwhelmed from the gear and overwhelmed by the difficulty in the single group missions.
You and everyone else. I think if there was anything ever unanimous in EQ, its this.
And that is scary.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on September 23, 2005 04:44 AM
It doesn't matter if the drops are trash as long as the missions are fun.
Comment Posted by: Quaras on September 23, 2005 08:21 AM
I still cant understand why they cant create an overarching quest that gives you something if you complete all monster missions and shroud progressions.
Comment Posted by: Quesci on September 23, 2005 02:33 PM
I wouldn't want to see shroud progression as a quest requirement. It is just too easy for those with access to powerleveling to shroud down to 5 or 10 and crank through a shroud progression. A guildy completed one shroud last night, unlocking the cleric elemental, in two hours. It would take me 10 times that without access to a high level toon to powerlevel myself.
I can't think of any other quest that requires you to *gain* experience to complete it.
On the other hand, a title for people who have completed shroud progression would be a great idea. Just like tradeskillers get titles, those with shrouds unlocked should get titles. Maybe one progression unlocked gets you "Shapeshifter" while all unlocked allows you to be called "Doppleganger".
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