Depths of Darkhollow: In-depth Preview
by Loral on September 09, 2005
Nearly a year has passed since the release of Worlds of Warcraft and Everquest 2. With such fierce competition, many worried that Everquest was finally on the downward spiral. We worried that these new games would have features and functions impossible in a game like Everquest and that the EQ development team would be hard pressed to add anything unique or interesting to Everquest that hadn't been done before.
We should not have worried.
Depths of Darkhollow is Sony Online Entertainment's tenth Everquest expansion in six years. It is, by far, the most bold and innovative expansion ever released. While other games struggle to keep up with features like LDON adventures and the Mission System, Depths of Darkhollow adds unique, useful, and fun features never seen in any other massive online game.
Since the difficult release and lackluster response of Gates of Discord, SOE has improved Everquest with every expansion. Every expansion improved upon the strengths of the previous and Depths of Darkhollow appears no different.
One would assume that a tenth expansion in any game would have difficulty improving upon the original game and nine previous expansions, but Depths of Darkhollow shows once again how far this six year old game can go.
Let's dig in. We start with the basic content found in most expansions and end this preview by looking at the more radical features: spirit shrouds, monster missions, and evolving items.
Depths of Darkhollow includes six new large static zones including The Undershore, Stoneroot Falls, The Ruins of Illsalin, Corathus Creep, The Hive, Dreadspire Keep. The release of Depths of Darkhollow also included a rebuilt Nektulos forest for all EQ players including those not purchasing the expansion. These zones scale from level 45 to level 70 with three zones tuned for level 68 to 70 hunters. Dreadspire Keep should give a good challenge to those bored of Riftseekers.
These static zones include a wide range of design from huge statues and torch-lit tent cities to huge suspended stone bridges crisscrossing huge chasms. The EQ artists found an excellent balance between the hyperrealism of Everquest 2 and the epic, but cartoony feel of World of Warcraft. The design and architecture of Depths includes a lot of detail without sacrificing the feeling of epic fantasy.
Dreadspire Keep, the end-zone of Depths of Darkhollow, is not locked by a raid like the end-zones in most previous expansions but instead by a single group event. Dreadspire is an entirely different style of zone, one of such strangeness that it must be seen and heard to be believed. You will travel through the depths of shadowy hell only to find yourself walking into the set for Masterpiece Theater with a pale-skinned butler handing you a warm glass of brandy.
Since Lost Dungeons of Norrath, every Everquest expansion has included instanced single group hunting areas. Dragons of Norrath included the Mission system and Depths further capitalizes on Missions by adding over forty single group missions from level 55 to 70. Depths of Darkhollow changes the path towards mission progression from the ways of Dragons.
Depths mission progression consists of a set of missions in each of the static zones. You are rewarded for each mission accomplished and again when you complete a set of missions in each of the zones. There will be random rewards for those who do a mission more than once, but unlike Dragons, you will be rewarded for completing a variety of different missions rather than completing the same mission over and over.
Here is an example. You and your ragged band of adventurers meets an important figure in the Depths of Darkhollow who sends you on a mission. You go on the mission, fight a big horrible creature and its minions. When the boss is defeated, your group is rewarded with a dropped item you may divvy up as you choose. If this is the first time you or any of the others have done this particular mission, you will receive a one-time reward that may be a piece of gear or some other tasty treasure. Future battles against this mission will still drop a piece of gear off of the boss, but future one-time rewards must be received from different dungeons you have not yet defeated.
One important note and change that may frustrate some players. Mission entrances are sometimes very deep in hostile zones. Getting TO a mission can become as difficult as the mission itself. These missions are tuned to include the time it takes to arrive as well as the time it takes to complete so they shouldn't become much longer to complete than missions in previous expansions. It can be frustrating, however, to accept a mission and not actually begin it until after an hour of traveling.
Depths of Darkhollow also includes some single group events (I heard them referred to as single group raids, a term that made my head spin but my heart soar) that are triggered by a group but take place in open zones. These are a mixture of instanced missions and regular overland killing but the idea is unique. This fits well with my previous request for more interesting single group content than static hunting and boring boss monsters.
Many Anguish-level raiders found the high-end raids in Dragons of Norrath to be too easy and not rewarding enough to hold their interest. Once Overlord Mata Muram was defeated in the Citadel of Anguish more than a few times, these raiders had little to do. Depths attempts to pacify and perhaps humble these high-end raiders.
Depths of Darkhollow includes two dozen events and raids ranging from 24 person elemental level events to 54 person Anguish and post-Anguish level raids. Anguish raiders can expect over a dozen 54 person high-end raids. This will hopefully give high-end raiders more than enough challenge and also offer further parallel progression paths for lower-end raiders to reach more powerful challenges and greater rewards.
While not a level-cap increasing expansion, Depths offers a bit of character progression. Depths includes about a dozen new AAs for each character class for a total of perhaps 200 points of further AA progression. Depths includes one new discipline for melee and even a new discipline for hybrids, something they have requested for some time.
Spell casters will see two or three new spells for each caster class in the level 65 to 70 range. New forms of spell research will allow players to research previously dropped spells from older expansions including the elusive 69 and 70 runes from Omens of War. The exact details of this research is still unknown but acquiring these spells should be less frustrating than in the past. [Update 9/12/2005: I found out today that these researched spells will only be up to level 65, not up to 70, however my understanding is that there will be greater access to Omens 69 and 70 spells within Depths of Darkhollow.]
Now we will look at some of the unique features of this expansion.
One of the greatest challenges and frustrations of a massive online game comes when two friends both play the same game but one quickly outstrips the other due to longer play times. Soon these two friends, who used to hunt together often, cannot hunt together at all due to such a wide level range. A Penny Arcade parody of Worlds of Warcraft covers it well.
Other games have found ways to solve this problem. City of Heroes included the sidekick system that raised the level of one player to meet the other. Everquest 2 included the Mentor system that let one player lower his or her level to that of a friend. Everquest added a big twist on this mentor system with Spirit Shrouds.
Spirit shrouds allow players to polymorph into a monster of their level or below in increments of 5. These monsters are broken up into archetypes called "templates". Each template includes a set of skills that meet a typical character archetype such as melee, spellcaster, healer, utility, or tank. There are eight sets of spirit shrouds with over twenty different monster models and over thirty different shrouds total.
My good friend Nanyea wrote a detailed look at spirit shrouds and I recently wrote an instructional guide to spirit shrouds. I also wrote a previous article called What Will Play as a Monster Mean for EQ feature.
The primary purpose for spirit shrouds is to allow higher level players an opportunity to effectively hunt with lower level friends. It meets this job very well. Shrouds also let players try out templates vastly different from their own. If you spent most of your time playing a pasty cleric, you can now try out playing as a melee, spellcaster, or tank.
At higher levels, shrouded monsters become less powerful than characters of the same level. Much of this is based on the large equipment and Alternate Advancement power increases at higher levels. Shrouds should allow players to switch to a needed archetype if a group is missing one core member, but they will not be able to hunt in the most powerful areas. A group of three primary characters and three shrouded characters should to be able to hunt in places like Wall of Slaughter and the lower Dragon missions.
However, if a group cannot find one core class for a hunt, they might consider monster missions instead.
When I first heard about Depths of Darkhollow I was most excited about spirit shrouds. After my first Nagafen monster mission, I changed my mind.
Monster Missions are the best feature of Depths of Darkhollow. Monster missions let any group of four to six players of any level and any class face a challenge as monsters in an instanced scenario. Monster missions open the door to entire new possibilities for challenging encounters. They are self-contained events under perfectly controlled environments and power levels. They are easily balanced and not affected by any outside influence. They are the most fun I've had in EQ in a long time.
There are twenty such monster missions in Depths of Darkhollow. About half of these are in the depths itself while ten go back to old world zones to let players face some old world challenges. Imagine invading Freeport as a band of pirates. Imagine fighting off the undead hoards as froglok paladins in lower guk. Imagine breathing waves of fire upon sniveling raiders who invade in an attempt to steal your Cloak of Flames. The possibilities are endless. My only hope is that we continue to see new monster missions added in the future.
Depths offers a new form of equipment known as "evolving items". These items grow in power the more you use them. They may start off as weaker pieces of equipment but the more you use them, the stronger they get. There are several dozen such items in Depths of Darkhollow. Intelligent items are a rare subset of these. These items will actually communicate to the player through emotes and possibly tells. Though these items will be quite rare and unique, they will be available to single group hunters as well as high-end raiders.
Depths of Darkhollow is the first expansion to offer a box prize so useful that I will suffer the traffic of Washington DC to buy my copy retail rather than download it from SOE directly. Those who purchase the retail version of Depths of Darkhollow will receive an in-game clockwork boar mount. This mount is comparable to the 10k plat horse and drogmar mounts but with a unique model and look. Rewards like these offer an incentive to retail outlets to carry this expansion and it is these boxes on the shelf that bring new players to Everquest. Unfortunately, poor retail systems between the US and other countries make it nearly impossible for non-US players to receive such a reward.
Depths of Darkhollow shows how far Everquest can evolve. While many questioned how long a game like EQ can survive, we only have to look at the ingenuity in expansions such as this one to see how far Everquest can continue to go. Depths of Darkhollow offers all of the strongest features of a good solid expansion along with two of the most radical concepts I have seen in any roleplaying game. Considering the hours and hours of content this expansion contains, it is easily worth the $30 price tag. While time will tell for sure, Depths has all of the signs to be the best Everquest expansion ever released.
Loral Ciriclight
9 September 2005
loral@loralciriclight.com
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on September 9, 2005 09:18 PM
Don't forget the recent corpse change. Corpses will no longer decay if they still have xp on them, even if all their items are looted. Gone are the days of leaving a random item on your corpse so you can get a rez after the adventure.
Comment Posted by: Jyve on September 10, 2005 03:46 AM
This is a major change of direction in many ways for EQ. Instead of offering various lines of progression, they've actually done something quite radical. They've added something fun todo for a group of anyone.
The HUGE advantage of this is how many times have you logged in to see all the tanks lfg, no clerics? Or shammy?
Playing as a monster totally removes this. Instead of sitting round waiting for a needed class to go lfg, or bugging people when there's lots of others lfg, you can invite absolutely anyone and then get the monster mission.
There shouldn't ever be a reason to have a near full group sitting around doing nothing. The game is moving faster with fun. Much has been said about reducing travel times to zones, but there was still the time to form groups. Monster Missions really help this.
This whole expansion is really quite radical in so many ways. I can't think of any previous expansion that's got so many ground breaking features as this all rolled into one release. Hats off to the designers for thinking so far out of the box here.
I'm REALLY looking forward to this expansion. (and for the first time ever, am getting the boxed version).
Cheers,
Jyve
Comment Posted by: John Clark on September 10, 2005 12:50 PM
Hey Loral, the two links " instructional guide to spirit shrouds." and "What Spirit Shrouds will mean to EQ" link the same article...
Comment Posted by: me on September 10, 2005 06:00 PM
"With such fierce competition, many worried that Everquest was finally on the downward spiral. We worried that these new games would have features and functions impossible in a game like Everquest and that the EQ development team would be hard pressed to add anything unique or interesting to Everquest that hadn't been done before.
We should not have worried"
As proven by the outstanding and increasing subscription numbers?? ROFLMAO
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 11, 2005 10:44 AM
Actually, the editor of this article gave me the same statement (without the smarmy ROFLMAO). Let me explain. Warcraft has four million users and you'd think with all of those users it would evolve faster than it has. You'd also assume with four million users one wouldn't have trouble finding a group, but I do.
Subscription numbers really don't matter to you and I. As long as SOE continues to support the game and continues to make progressive and innovative expansions and patches, I don't care if they're down to one server.
Numbers are important because they are the lifeblood of the game, they feed SOE so SOE continues to create expansions. But this expansion is a perfect example of how numbers don't directly compare to the quality of an expansion. While it doesn't contain the huge amount of content that previous yearly expansions contained like Kunark or Planes of Power, it changes the game far beyond it's original origins.
I still stand by my original fanboi statement.
Comment Posted by: EnderSword on September 11, 2005 11:40 AM
Maybe it's a matter of perspective, but I find that almost everything you seem to be raving about in this review are things that make me absolutely cringe.
The concept of group events seems like it should be easier for progression through zones and missions, but as was demonstrated in GoD, it can be the worst time sink a Guild ever faces.
The one-time reward for completing missions sounds like a neat idea, in that encourages players to do a variety of zones and missions...but in reality it serves to discourage people from wanting to do the same one again, causing friends and guilds to be divided at various levels of completion with no one willing to help get the rest done.
While things like Vxed and Tipt group trials sounded like neat group trials, they turned into nightmares for people. instead of a guild of 54 forming 9 groups and doing it, you tended to have the same 4 people forced to do it over and over piggybacking 2 weak classes along with them.
You do point out that players may find it annoying that it takes an hour or more to get to a mission...and that would be annoying by itself. But the thing that will be more annoying is that It will mean some groups will only accept people who can 'get there' without delay through long ignored EQ features like /zone and /warp (I forget what expansion they came in but Sony seems to support them)
More and more content seems to be created to serve people who are hacking and discourage people who arn't. If they can't fix the problem, atleast make content that doesn't amplify the disparity.
While the content of this game sounds fairly neat, the social structure required to do well in it simply isn't based in reality. People do not act the way SOE is trying to make them act and its been proven time and time again with failure at each turn.
Couple that with a very lackluster set of new AA and spells and even the cool parts like monster missions really can't save this expansion.
I think this one could go down as a GoD-style mistake
Comment Posted by: Zolina on September 11, 2005 12:28 PM
Hey Loral, someone's been taking incriminating photos of you masquerading as a druid!
http://www.deviantart.com/view/22636576/
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 11, 2005 03:21 PM
I don't know what exact single-group event is needed to enter Dreadspire but I don't think most raids will be locked back behind a whole series of trials like Gates of Discord had. I would expect it to be more like Dragons of Norrath where people have to unlock the raids but once unlocked, anyone can attend. SOE had enough problem with backflagging that they seemed to let it go and make it as easy as possible without being just totally open. Only time will tell for sure.
With monster missions and spirit shrouds, I already know that this expansion won't be as useless as GoD was for people below 50. GoD was both really hard and locked the great majority of content - I'm not seeing this in DoD at all.
Don't misunderstand my preview. I don't yet know everything about this expansion well enough to say for sure that it's as good as I think it may be, but I already see some excellent features and designs that may steer it to the slot for top expansion.
I can say that the two old-world monster missions were enough to sell me on the expansion by themselves. They're great fun and I can't wait to try them on the Live servers.
Here's a juicy screenshot:
http://static.flickr.com/26/42317786_bcc5bfb50d_b.jpg
Comment Posted by: palad on September 11, 2005 09:31 PM
I know you want a job at SOE, Loral, but you really went overboard with the praise on this one. It had better be deserved.
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 11, 2005 10:56 PM
I realize I went a bit heavy with the praise in this one but I stand by everything I said. I am really excited about this one.
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on September 12, 2005 12:48 AM
It is deserved. DoD is easily my favorite expansion.
Comment Posted by: Maitreya on September 12, 2005 12:49 AM
Oh, one thing I forgot. I'M the one wants a job at SOE, not Loral.
Comment Posted by: Glamdrigg on September 12, 2005 02:32 AM
Well, I get off work this morning at 10 Am, been working all night. I'm stopping on the way home at BB and picking up the expansion. Got some BB bucks to blow anyway..LOL
BTW if I flatter Jenna Jameison can I get a job with her?
Comment Posted by: Lenara A`Ranel on September 12, 2005 04:27 AM
>New forms of spell research will allow players to research previously dropped spells from older expansions including the elusive 69 and 70 runes from Omens of War<
Is this statement confirmed? Ive also read that it will only be for spells to 65(PoP & GoD) not including ancient spells. I'm a Cleric and elusive just doenst quite cover what 69 and 70 spells have been for me =/
Comment Posted by: Othanic on September 12, 2005 09:36 AM
I think the whole "One unique item" thing from missions is BS.
How unfair is it to reward one single person in the group for doing a mission, and then locking every person in that group out of receiving a similar item forever? That is lame. Also - what happens when you have 3 ppl that have done said mission before, and 3 ppl that have not? Does the item perhaps drop, and no one but 1 of the 3 ppl that have not done the mission before able to loot it - or perhaps worse, the item does not drop, and the 3 ppl are now on the "done this mission before" list and dont have a chance at the item at all?
What guarantee is there that at least someone even in the group can use the item? What are the chances that you have a unique group that not the holy trinity+dps - and you get an item that no one can use - what a big dissapointment would that be?
Anyway - its just plain BS to disallow people a unique reward just because.
Comment Posted by: Stylx on September 12, 2005 11:04 AM
[quote] While other games struggle to keep up with features like LDON adventures and the Mission System, Depths of Darkhollow adds unique, useful, and fun features never seen in any other massive online game. [/quote]
I'm sorry, but in your review, I haven't seen a single feature that hasn't been seen in other MMO genre games.
Also, I haven't noticed other games struggling to keep up with LDON adventures or mission systems.
EQ2 and WOW both offer LDON Style adventures and mission type adventures.
CoH Also offers LDON style adventures.
SWG offers LDON Style adventures.
I'm not seeing where these games are struggling to compete with LDON style adventures.
I'm sure DoD is good a expansion, however I do not believe it offers anything innovative to the MMO market from the description you provided.
To tick off the points you, loial, claim are new.
Spirit shrouds show up in a variety of fashions across games.
Used to adjust level, you see a similar feature in CoH and EQ2 (both of which you acknowledged)
Used to play a monster, or char of different power level: you see quests in EQ2 and WoW where your char is empowered or changed to do a different function. Furthermore, these features are not quite as needed to play the game. Groups can get by with druids healing just as well as with cleric/priests (if not better off in some circumstances). A situation that does not present itself in EQ.
As far as intelligent items? I'm not quite sure how you mean by intelligent. If an item that speaks to you? then yes. WOW has several of those I believe. My favorite is a glass shard that contains the dead spirit of a green dragon. Whenever you click it to use the function of the item, the dragon yells at you about how his soul is not a trinket. He rotates randomly through about a dozen different sayings and only you can hear him.
[quote] Warcraft has four million users and you'd think with all of those users it would evolve faster than it has. [/quote]
Now, I do not play WoW anymore, or EQ2, or EQ, or CoH, ect.
However, I'd like to make these few statements.
1. Where you buy an "Expansion" for features and a couple zones, WoW has added zones on a regular basis over the past several months. Silithus has been added as a viable zone. Maradron, dire maul, blackwing Lair have been added as instanced single group and raid zones. People have paid expansion prices for 6 released zones in EQ. WoW players have gotten these zones at no extra cost.
2. Events. Features and events have been added over the past year WoW has been active. Children's week, or the latest fair that popped up. New player spells have been added. new quests. Hell even a new city was added to the hinterlands with a slew of horde quests. and another city in searing gorge with Alliance and horde quests. -- and not just at the top end. These quests/cities that have been added are for the mid-game player.
3. An entire branch of the game - PVP. They've added two zones dedicated to horde v. alliance combat. You have a mission, and an event. Time limit, and you pick the scale of the battle (smaller faster battles or large epic battle). Furthermore, new zones and new zone features are being added soon. instead of 10v10 warsong, you'll be able to play 15v15 arathi basin.
There have been many other features added. added items in zones. new reasons to play through the same events.
Furthermore, WoW offers something that EQ has not. Replayability. Leveling up 1-40 is different for alliance than it is for horde (Story wise). Also, you can do quests you missed the first time through. One go at the game, you do not finish every quest presented to you. Not even all the good ones.
---
I wrote a bit more than I intended, but I for some reason felt the need to point out that EQ is not offering anything new in terms of features, and that while WoW hasn't released an expansion, it has given players a reason to keep playing. (Even though I as an individual no longer play or pay for a subscription)
Comment Posted by: Erana Dragonfire of Quellious on September 12, 2005 11:28 AM
Thank you Loral for spending the time to review and outline the expansion.
As always, you've proven yourself a valuable member of the community.
-Erana Dragonfire
Comment Posted by: Mr Cheese on September 12, 2005 12:57 PM
This sounds cool. Playing a monster = cool. How unbelievably cool is this? Some questions:
Can I raid as a monster?
Can I solo well as a monster?
Erm. This is so wierd. I quit EQ a while back but I'm going to have to check this out. I was really put off by the shitty Nektulous Forest zone but then I guess the junior dev needs some time to learn =P
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 12, 2005 01:19 PM
"Is this statement confirmed? Ive also read that it will only be for spells to 65(PoP & GoD) not including ancient spells. I'm a Cleric and elusive just doenst quite cover what 69 and 70 spells have been for me =/"
Spell research will indeed only be up to level 65, not 66+. I will update the article to reflect this. I am going to talk to SOE more about spell runes and Depths of Darkhollow. I'll get back with what I hear.
"How unfair is it to reward one single person in the group for doing a mission, and then locking every person in that group out of receiving a similar item forever?"
It is my understanding that everyone on that mission receives a reward their first time through. They won't get anything but the random drop thereafter, but it isn't just one guy getting the preset reward - it's the whole group.
"What guarantee is there that at least someone even in the group can use the item? What are the chances that you have a unique group that not the holy trinity+dps - and you get an item that no one can use - what a big dissapointment would that be?"
We won't know yet how it works. We'll see over the next few days.
"I'm sorry, but in your review, I haven't seen a single feature that hasn't been seen in other MMO genre games."
What other MMOs let you switch and play as a lower level monster in Player vs. Environment?
What other MMOs let you swith your class archetype to one drastically different than your own?
What other MMOs let you play as monsters in instanced single-group events?
What other MMOs let groups from from players of any level and any class and compete in a challenging sealed environment?
What other MMOs have intelligent items?
I don't ask these questions to be smarmy, I ask them because there may be other games but I have not heard of them.
Other games surely have methods of letting lower and higher level players hunt together but its mainly systems like mentoring and sidekicking. I haven't seen anything like EQ's method.
"Where you buy an "Expansion" for features and a couple zones, WoW has added zones on a regular basis over the past several months."
This came up on the EQ Live forums a while back. SOE regularly adds new free zones, zone revamps, additional missions such as the new unrest mission and the new Hate's Fury mission. These aren't paid for. Blizzard hasn't added an expansions worth of content to WoW. I like WoW, don't get me wrong, but they need to bring out a real expansion.
"Furthermore, WoW offers something that EQ has not. Replayability."
I don't know, I have a lot of fun rolling up new characters and going from 1 to 20. There's enough content in Everquest that every newbie experience can be completely different.
Comment Posted by: Quesci on September 12, 2005 01:57 PM
"What other MMOs let groups from from players of any level and any class and compete in a challenging sealed environment?"
City of Heroes
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 12, 2005 01:57 PM
I added this to the main preview to fix my mistake on 66+ spell research:
[Update 9/12/2005: I found out today that these researched spells will only be up to level 65, not up to 70, however my understanding is that there will be greater access to Omens 69 and 70 spells within Depths of Darkhollow.]
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 12, 2005 02:00 PM
""What other MMOs let groups from from players of any level and any class and compete in a challenging sealed environment?"
City of Heroes"
Good point. My experience with COH is limited (none actually) but from what I hear and understand it really led the way for this whole mentor / sidekicking thing. I also like that equipment never comes into play but that does limit the number of progressive reward areas the game has.
No doubt other games have handled the whole high-level hunting with low-level but none that I've seen handle it in the way EQ does.
Comment Posted by: Stylx on September 12, 2005 02:57 PM
Keep in mind, no game is 100% exactly like another game out there. However you can find similar features in other games.
Quote Loral: What other MMOs let you switch and play as a lower level monster in Player vs. Environment?
First, I think this question is too specific. Lets break it into two different questions. What MMO lets you play a monster? And, what mmo lets you play a lower level char?
- EQ offered something similar to this a long time ago. Player played a level 1-5 monster in a newbie zone.
- EQ2 offers to let you play a char with your char empowered by a long dead spirit of a great godlike warrior. Adds lots of abilities and powers. Is one of the most popular quests in the game (since it can be played by any char lvl 20-50, and have the adventure scale. And since you take out groups of monsters solo that a group of 5 would have a difficult time with.
- Some WoW quests transform you into NPC models to complete quest objectives. One of my favorites turns you into a member of the scarlet crusade, and you have to help a scarlet crusade paladin kick some major butt.
- Some WOW quests turn you into dragons to do events. Some quests have you gain faction and start working as a NPC bad guy, even though your race stays in tact.
- EQ2 lets you change to lower level.
- Planetside lets you play as a lower lvl type char. Respec your preferences. And compete against lvl 1 chars. Planetside, every player is a player and a monster.
Quote Loral: What other MMOs let you swith your class archetype to one drastically different than your own?
-Planetside: Any time you want, you turn in your certs and pick up new ones.
-SWG: Any time you want, change your class.
-WoW- Several classes can peform multiple playstyles and types. A shadowspec priest is a great damage dealer. Can fill in for a rog/hunter. Rest spec sham can primary heal for a group. Feral druid can be dps or tank – and properly geared can have much more hps and ac than a warrior of equal level. Rest spec druid can heal prime. Balance spec druid can deal damage. Holy spec paladin can prime heal. Warriors can spec to be very high damage dealers. Hunters can spec to be heavy range combat, or pet focus and healing. – You can change your spec at any time.
Side note on WoW Druids. They can play as virtually any class in the game- properly geared and spec’d. Some things they do better than others, however they CAN and often DO fill every roll in the game. They do everything well (except deal direct damage), but only one thing at a time with a given spec and set of gear.
Side note on WOW Sham. Shamans are the jack of all trades. They can and often DO fill every roll in game, from damage dealer, to healer, to tank. They do everything in the game at once, however none of them as well as the primary classes meant to do the abilities.
-I believe CoH instituted a quest that allows you to respect your abilities. Don’t quote me on it however. Just something I read a year or two ago.
Quote Loral: What other MMOs let you play as monsters in instanced single-group events?
Once again, two different question> What MMO lets you play as monsters (covered above), and what mmo lets you play in instanced single-group events.
-EQ2 and WOW – See above for EQ quest solo, and WOW quest grouped. There are a few other examples, but those are the ones that come to mind immediately.
-Just about every MMO released in the past two years includes instances. CoH, WOW, EQ (new expansions), EQ2. It is being said this may be the downfall of the genre, and Vanguard will be the first in a long time to not-include instances of any type (so they say as of now. This could change after beta)
Quote Loral: What other MMOs let groups from from players of any level and any class and compete in a challenging sealed environment?
-EQ2 – Splitpaw saga quests All zones are tuned to the group and several are solo and scaled to group.
-EQ2 has MANY solo instanced zones. Many are quest related.
-CoH –Described above. All encounters scaled to group based on group level and size, or if the player is solo.
-WoW has many instanced encounters.
-Also, this is being theorized to be part of the downfall of the MMO genre. Vanguard is stating it will not seal off any environments, yet still offered challenges that can be locked to your encounter. (vanguard not released yet, but entering beta soon**)
What other MMOs have intelligent items?
-WOW comes to mind I described my favorite item that is “Intelligent” in my post above.. I heard other MMO games also have them as well like AC2. Vanguard is talking about it, but it is not released yet. I’m still confused as to what you mean by “Intelligent”. Does the weapon do something special that other weapons do not besides talk to you? Does it act on its own? If a rampaging goblin charges me, while I’m AFK, will the weapon take over and kill the goblin?
-In the history of roleplaying games, intelligent weapons could act on their own. Does EQ Intelligent weapons act on their own? Or do they only throw prescripted text your way?
-If you’re looking for items with prescripted text, there are already several in EQ alone! Just bout any item you click and get an emote from. “So and so glows using his water sprinkler of rez sickness”. If you want an item that actually “talks to you” then I suggest going around clicking items. I believe there have been items laying around that if you click you get some pre-scripted text. You just can’t take them with you.
Keep in mind loral, combining two already existing ideas does not make it a new innovative idea, nor does it mean it is a good idea.
Next MMO we play, might be everyone starts off as the same class, and spec’s what they want to do. Gains exp and levels, and adds more abilities. And at any time can respect (for a cost) into another class.
-Sure this might stop problems of noone playing a healer class. This might let any group of chars go out and do something. Doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. Doesn’t mean it’s a new idea. Just means someone combined existing ideas to do a variation of old ideas.
Comment Posted by: Maeven on September 12, 2005 05:40 PM
I am excited about this new expansion, but I have to ask, what do you think of the newly revamped Nektulos Forest? I have to say that I absolutely LOATHE the butcher-job they have done on that zone, a place I used to love taking my DE necro to hunt skellies, spiders and fire beetles, or just fool around helping young, confused DEs who managed to stumble their way out of Neriak. /mourns Nek :(
Comment Posted by: Naubi on September 12, 2005 05:50 PM
"Furthermore, WoW offers something that EQ has not. Replayability. Leveling up 1-40 is different for alliance than it is for horde (Story wise). Also, you can do quests you missed the first time through. One go at the game, you do not finish every quest presented to you. Not even all the good ones."
This is a bit misleading. WoW has replayabilty in the same way that some *single player* RPGs might do. It has less replayability content wise than EQ does as (currently) as a MMoRPG.
Plenty of people are actually turned off by the way you level up in WoW (they fondly remember the openness EQ had years ago). They dislike this in EQ2 aswell. They feel... if I wanted to play a single player game, I'd rather load up a CD of a Blackisle RPG (or whatever) that I neglected when I got into EQ.
Comment Posted by: Hassan al-Nasir on September 12, 2005 06:10 PM
I've played way too many of these games, so here we go (I love Mobunter Loral, I have some points at the end though I feel I need to make though:
What other MMOs let you switch and play as a lower level monster in Player vs. Environment?
World of Warcraft, though not at will, it's specific quests.
What other MMOs let you swith your class archetype to one drastically different than your own?
World of Warcraft through talent rebuilds (costs money), City of Heroes (you can respec at different levels to create drastically different characters, though within the same archetype).
What other MMOs let you play as monsters in instanced single-group events?
World of Warcraft, but again, see above.
What other MMOs let groups from from players of any level and any class and compete in a challenging sealed environment?
City of Heroes, through sidekicking. Lots of instanced content in City of Heroes you can run through (the caverns in the Hollows comes to mind as the big sealed environment event that you could bring sidekicks into.
What other MMOs have intelligent items?
World of Warcraft, to a degree I would even argue Ultima Online through their specially designed items, but that's a bit of a stretch.
Loral, none of these questions are actually necessary. The fact is, your review would have been incredible if you had just provided us, the readers, with the fundamentals about the expansion and your excitement over them, as opposed to trying to list how innovative they were compared to other games out there. The fact is, all these concepts are awesome and exciting, but they are simply expanding on ideas presented in other games, or providing a new twist on them (really, I don't view Shrouds as anything more than a method of allowing City of Heroes sidekicking in the EverQuest universe). That doesn't make the ideas bad, wrong, or any less exciting.
I think your review was just a little too 'fan boyish', which detracted from the fundamental truth of it. I really believe Depths of Darkhollow will revitalize an aspect of the game long ignored, that of the casual player, while providing jaded, old school players with new adventures and outlets. I think you made the point well, but the point was lost in some of your enthusiasm as a result of comparisons to other games that weren't necessary.
Just my .02, hope I haven't caused any offense.
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 12, 2005 06:53 PM
I hadn't seen the monster quests in Warcraft before so I hadn't considered them. They do sound similar to monster missions although more limited both in scope and scale. It sounds like the system in DoD is more flexible in its ability to let players perform the missions at any level and it also sounds like it has more variety than COH.
So is it truely unique? Well, yeah, when you look into the details; maybe not so much when you take a glancing look at it. Innovative? I think putting two or three good ideas together into something new can be innovative. Innovation doesn't have to come from something that's never been done but by putting the right few things together.
As to the fanboish nature of the preview, I have to agree. It is fanboish. I saw it clearly after reading it later. Even my editor, an EQ fan although three kids keeps him away from Norrath at the moment, was turned off by the fanboish prose. However the preview comes from the heart; that is what I was feeling when I sat down to write about the expansion. To go back and make it more cynical would be lying. That is how I felt and how I feel. I can't wait until tomorrow.
I look at Depths of Darkhollow and I see some excellent and unique features that really separate this game not only from the competition but from all previous versions of itself. I still think that it looks to be the best expansion. I certainly think its worth $30 to find out, considering I've spent $50 on games I will play for far less time.
Is it fanboish? Most certainly, but if you haven't guessed by now, I am a fanboi. You will find no lack of cynical reviews over on the EQlive forums. I will also write a much more cynical article called "Sinkholes of Darkhollow" in a few weeks once we get a good idea what problems we find in Depths just as I did with "The Chipped Teeth of Dragons of Norrath" a few weeks after its release.
In the mean time, you have a preview with some details on what it has. If they sound good to you, you may want to invest $30. I know from what I've heard and what I've seen, it is worth $30 to me.
Comment Posted by: Hassan al-Nasir on September 12, 2005 06:57 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm extraordinarily excited about Depths of Darkhollow. I think it's going to be one of the best expansions for casual players since Lost Dungeons of Norrath, with the benefit that it appears to appeal to raiders and higher end players and offers more innovations for the EQ world as well.
I guess the point I was trying to make is I want people who are cynical and jaded to see the benefits of this expansion as well, and those are people who tend to ignore reviews that are effusive and fanboy like, no matter how valid the content. I'm seeing way too much cynicism about this expansion in the forums, and I'd prefer people keep in mind just how much real potential there is here.
Comment Posted by: Jyve on September 13, 2005 05:04 AM
Got to stick up for Loral here, this expansion really is that good.
If you notice on the official boards, there's alot of negativity as usual, but notice it's from people who've not seen it. They've read the feature list and been upset by something, that in practice is actually pretty good. The actual DoD expansion itself truly is amazing. Despite the fanboi comments above, I've totally enjoyed all my time in the beta (which if you keep reading the forums, seems to be the general consensus of most people who've been in Beta).
There's various games out there that let you respec your char, but this Shroud thing, letting you play as a totally different char, doesn't affect your main when you come out of shroud form.
You get the chance to play something a bit different (which we all need from time to time), without losing a single thing you've put into your main character.
There's now so many different ways of progression;
Items that evolve (and to be honest, it's the evolving thing rather than the intelligent thing that appeals to me, no more jester jokes)
Unlocking all the shrouds
Playing ALL of the monster missions.
Usual level/aa grinding.
Tradeskills
Gear collecting
Merchants (know a couple of people who only log in to play the bazaar market. Hope they come back for more soon, but they're happy enough).
There really is something for every single level of player, and the monster missions will get all levels together to play.
I fully intend to create a newbie toon on a couple of other servers to play some of these monster missions with old friends who've server moved.
There IS going to be the usual problems I'm sure, but anyone who's played ANY online game kinda expects them these days. This'll be no different, hopefully it settles soon.
Comment Posted by: Glormane on September 13, 2005 05:08 AM
Having hoped for some good AA's based on Rashere's comments of some unique abilities, as a Paladin I am getting nothing new in terms of AA. I cant claim the same for spells, but I am still not overly optimistic, a dd that snares a monster type that usually doesnt run. I am getting nothing to help with my agro generation over those classes that unintentionally steal agro from me (Rangers for instance get a major dps disc).
The evolving items I have seen so far match nothing I already have at the top end, so I am hoping there are better ones around.
With that in mind, I realise that the above is only part of the expansion, and I hope the gameplay makes up for this and is better than (for me) Dragons Of Norrath
Comment Posted by: Lytewolf on September 13, 2005 06:32 AM
Good review Loral. Was nice to wake up and read about it. Ultimately everyone that will try it will have thier own opinion. This is a good way to let people know what they should be expecting.
/pounce
Lyte
Comment Posted by: Daabu on September 13, 2005 06:58 AM
For those who are wondering what's up with two of Loral's links going to the same spot, the missing link is http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=9103
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on September 13, 2005 07:29 AM
From what I've seen:
my AAs are underpar.
my class disc too.
I expect my class gear progression too since it's still the same person doing it since Omens.
I've seen a boatload of trash to clear for raid content: I just pray we don't have to clear all that or the devs should be shot for even thinking of going back to that kind of clumsy mistake.
All in all, I'm a tad nervous about DoD. Not too optimistic until proven otherwise.
If you ask about fun: fun is challenge to me. clearing trash is not challenging. Underpar aa/disc bore me. monster/shroud toys require groups that may or may not happen at all considering the AAs/gear/level of our alts.
I put hope in the smart gear and normal group content. Dubious at this point.
Comment Posted by: Aesculap on September 13, 2005 08:02 AM
Well, spirit shrouds looked interesting...until I saw that the levels are pretty much set in stone. Would have been great to see power of xx% of your original toon, so you could also use this for raid encounters in high end guilds (which you cannot now, as it is).
Sigh.
Comment Posted by: Qanini on September 13, 2005 09:04 AM
You know either you are a EQ player or not --- at least SOE is trying to keep EQ a very interesting and fun game. I myself would love for clerics to have more than 9 gems slots but thats part of the game being able to know when
and how to use your gem slots. I love playing a Cleric in EQ and I love EQ, so get off the complaints or leave the playing to those of us who think EQ is the BEst!
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on September 13, 2005 09:54 AM
Last I checked everybody is entitled to his own opinion, no matter how deluded it may be, including yours...
Comment Posted by: Starrla on September 13, 2005 10:55 AM
I am thrilled that SOE has continued to produce expansions for EQ. I have played this game for over five years and I see myself playing this game for years to come. I look forward to the innovations with this new expansion and hope for many more in the future. I will be out this morning to pick up my box version and will be exploring today. I am glad I have the day off work. :) EQ > all
Comment Posted by: Atradees on September 13, 2005 10:56 AM
These "Evolving items" sound alot like the DAOC "Artifacts" which would alow you to unlock the items greater abilities the more levels you gained on them (with a max of lvl10). I agree with the point made that most, if not all, of the "new" things presented in this expansion are simply modifications of current MMO's. Yet, it is new to EQ.. which means the application and use of these items/abilities will undoubtably change EQ. It may be similiar to something in another game, but those are things I enjoyed about other games.. im glad they are finally implementing them into EQ! One more thing, all i've seen in this description is the number of aa's coming out, nothing about the viability which worries me. /pray for usefull aa's
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 13, 2005 11:39 AM
"You know either you are a EQ player or not --- at least SOE is trying to keep EQ a very interesting and fun game. I love playing a Cleric in EQ and I love EQ, so get off the complaints or leave the playing to those of us who think EQ is the BEst!"
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on September 13, 2005 09:54 AM
"Last I checked everybody is entitled to his own opinion, no matter how deluded it may be, including yours..."
I agree, Redcloud, everyone has a right to their opinion and the debates give everyone a wider view of the topics.
However, I believe the point Qanini is trying to make is that there are a lot of opinions being tossed about by people who don't even play anymore. If they don't like the game anymore and they've quit playing, so be it, but it's hard to argue over detailed points that you've never seen.
Anyway, I'm on the quest to find a local copy. Best Buy has it listed as available but make sure to call first.
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 13, 2005 11:47 AM
Today's patch message:
http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=TNZ&message.id=201445
Comment Posted by: Naubi on September 13, 2005 12:54 PM
Most people playing EQ have tried WoW/and or EQ2.
They are not blind to EQ shortcommings, they do know there are alternative games out there.
They just prefer EQ even with it's downsides and the obvious lack of development resources it has now compared to where it was in the Luclin era (compare the ambition of that expansion with DoN and, maybe, DoDH).
Take WoW... it does so many things right that I dislike about EQ and the direction EQ has taken (it has kept a feeling of a world with real geography, for exmaple). It has a much slicker feel to it (all the ease of use of a single player RPG transfered online).
But... I don't like it. EQ is still a better game in it's basic mechanics, I just find it more fun to play.
I guess WoW is EQ 'done better' for allot of people, but not *all* (probably most). Far and away most WoW players have never even played EQ1.
Comment Posted by: Lighbearer on September 13, 2005 01:13 PM
pls fix the link to lorals guide!
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on September 13, 2005 01:30 PM
100% agree
WoW newbies will remain newbies in many ways since the game just doesn't provide the environment to push the enveloppe as we know it. Case in point, one can almost macro everything and anything in a combat in WoW with advanced UIs. What would be deemed cheating in EQ is standard practice in WoW.
But that was not the point.
As was said, people don't need to be told to shut up or cheer. We aren't that stupid or shallow or newbie. Thank you.
Comment Posted by: terminat on September 13, 2005 03:01 PM
[While not a level-cap increasing expansion, Depths offers a bit of character progression. Depths includes about a dozen new AAs for each character class for a total of perhaps 200 points of further AA progression. Depths includes one new discipline for melee and even a new discipline for hybrids, something they have requested for some time.]
What is the new discipline?? Anyone know? Every other review I've read on DoD says nothing of new disciplines.
Comment Posted by: EnderSword on September 13, 2005 03:12 PM
The monster missions sound a little cool. But I'm gonna need to hear way more about them.
A few questions come immediately to mind:
1) What power/gear level are they? If I become some cleric monster to play with my lvl 35 friend...will I be stronger or weaker than an average Real 35 cleric?
2) When doing monster missions with people my own level, will I retain any properties of my own character? Will Anguish geared people become the same type of monster a VT geared guy becomes?
3) How are rewards applied back to my actual character? I've heard that you can actually gain xp at your reduced level, so can i actually gain xp on my real person while messing around in OverThere?
4) What will hold my interest in this? Is there any real source of progression here? Missions like DoN hold interest both for lower geared people because the crystals are a gear up route, and hold interest for higher people because of faction work and progression through the DoN AA quests. So what are the DoD rewards, assuming that people of different gear levels do become the same monsters? Will this have anything to offer top guilded players?
5) Powerleveling ramifications. I could "play" with my low level friend by becoming her level...or I could become a Cleric, Buff her, Enchanter and buff her, then Turn into a Necro of a higher level and Root Rot things and run out of range so she gets xp. Will this encourage really grouping? or just make it more common to totally powerlevel people?
6) What are the real limitations on Monsters playing a class? I assume a cleric monster can Heal and a Wizard one can nuke....can a Cleric one Buff? can a Wizard one Port? If they can do these things it can make real ones less useful...if they can't do these things then they really arn't at all a replacement for a real cleric. I wouldn't suggest doing an MPG group trial with a Cleric who has no AA, No Buffs and other limitations. So do these actually help fill out groups at all for real?
In theory it all sounds cool, but the implementation must be extremely complicated to make it balanced and workable, and I don't think SoE has really shown much ability when it comes to that type of job.
Comment Posted by: Freudian on September 13, 2005 03:50 PM
Beta NDA released, so here goes.
Ok, I spent my first 90 minutes feeling out the zones, exploring with a lvl 70 rogue.
Time was spent primarily considering mobs to see what could and couldn't present a problem to a party, what factions were present, what items could be interacted with ( /opened ) and where the primary Questgiving NPCs were located.
I reccomend anyone with the resource to invis and explore to do the same. Invisibility and levitation are your best friends here. These zones exist in caverns underground and are often very very vertical. I made a wrong turn at one point and zoned over a waterfall, without lev, falling to the familiar 20k death.
The Shrouds come with a base set of very simple gear as well as abilities. As non standard EQ races the, solo, cannot wear gear tagged with a race and are, as a result, poor choices for solo.
Gone are the days, though, that you spend countless time looking for a stranger to fill the role of a particular class to round out a group. Shrouds allow anyone to shift to the role of a healer, dps or slower for the edge that you need to get moving with a particular goal.
I tried one task given for a single group, in the new zones. When the task was given we received the standard Pop-Up window with instructions and then were allowed to select a shroud. The whole group was limited to a single race (illithid like creatures) but allowed to select a class to ballance the encounter.
We then made our way through the caves to a second NPC who, when hailed, sent us into our instance. Not sure what to expect, and having joined the group late I zoned into instant death. ( the encounter was defend from swarms of invaders ).
When I reloaded I was with the group and it was on. We had two healers and 3 melee types. The invading Spider people were armed and hit upwards of 300 and we meleed for comparable damage. The melee abilities were rellative to mitigation of damage, increase in damage via a Below and such. When someone had to go we invited someone else to join the encounter, they accepted the mission, added a hotkey set for the shroud and dove right in.
It was fun and a refreshing change, I truly had a blast.
In all honesty I would pay twice what this expansion is priced at for the features alone.
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 13, 2005 04:04 PM
I fixed the link to my original "What Will Playing as a Monster Mean for EQ":
Here are some answers to Endersword's questions:
"1) What power/gear level are they? If I become some cleric monster to play with my lvl 35 friend...will I be stronger or weaker than an average Real 35 cleric?"
Monster Missions let you be really powerful in some instances. The Naggy mission gave the naggy player 15,000 hitpoints and the firegiant clerics got full CHs. Monster missions give a lot more power than spirit shrouds do.
Spirit shrouds are less effective and more limited than a PC of the same level. However, really up until 65ish, they do just fine in a group. 65 to 70 seems a fair amount weaker than a 65 to 70 player but time will have to tell us how much. Generally speaking, a shroud will always be weaker than an equally leveled PC. That's a good thing.
"2) When doing monster missions with people my own level, will I retain any properties of my own character? Will Anguish geared people become the same type of monster a VT geared guy becomes?"
You retain your name but that is it. A 70 Anguish guy and a 70 bazaar-geared PC will have the exact same shroud and monster template.
"3) How are rewards applied back to my actual character? I've heard that you can actually gain xp at your reduced level, so can i actually gain xp on my real person while messing around in OverThere?"
Spirit shrouded PCs earn experience as if they were that level - the wider the level range between your PC and the shroud, the less this experience will be noticable. Monster missions offer other rewards but we don't know what they are yet.
"4) Is there any real source of progression here?"
Progression allows you to unlock new shrouds with new abilities and new models. Its not sure how quickly we may progress but it's there and there's room for further progression.
"Will this have anything to offer top guilded players?"
It depends. A lot of high end raiders are only interested in more raids and better equipment. This won't give them that. It may be fun, though. Most of the raiders I talked to weren't very interested in the shrouds.
"5) Powerleveling ramifications."
Again, we're not sure yet but I don't think shrouds will make it any easier to PL than it already is. It's more for people interested in hunting and having fun than grinding to 70.
"6) What are the real limitations on Monsters playing a class? I assume a cleric monster can Heal and a Wizard one can nuke....can a Cleric one Buff? can a Wizard one Port? If they can do these things it can make real ones less useful...if they can't do these things then they really arn't at all a replacement for a real cleric. I wouldn't suggest doing an MPG group trial with a Cleric who has no AA, No Buffs and other limitations. So do these actually help fill out groups at all for real?""
You can't do an MPG trial group with shrouded characters unless the others are carrying them. WoS / Creator is about as powerful a place as I would expect a shroud to hunt assuming they play a core class (like healer or tank). Again, we'll have to see, but 70 shrouds will be a fair amount less powerful than normal level 70s.
Comment Posted by: Solanthus on September 13, 2005 04:20 PM
Sylx: You sir are a moron ><
Quote Loral: What other MMOs let you swith your class archetype to one drastically different than your own?
-WoW has many instanced encounters.
How does this apply to anything Loral said?
90% of what you mentioned about WOW was wrong. Oooh, the Scarlet quest that lest you change into a member of the scarlet crusade.. for 10 minutes.. and you dont fight ANYTHING in that form.. whoopde do.
Almost everything you spouted off was way off topic or simply incorrect. Please stop trying so hard.
Comment Posted by: Karthanon on September 13, 2005 04:48 PM
And here I was already to buy DoDh in the hopes that I could just get an item that would summon a nekkid gnome harem to take care of my every need..
Dang SOE, not catering to the casual player!
/rolls eyes
Comment Posted by: Eibon on September 13, 2005 04:57 PM
Hey Healers! Nice review Loral! However, have some minor comments and corrections.
First of all, LDON style missions were created to steal customers from Anarchy online which was the first game (I believe) to offer instanced missions. Unlike, LDONs though, AO allowed you to solo your missions or bring any number up of party members up to max team size. When LDON was first touted I pre-order the thing because the press releases made it sound like AO missions. Unfortunately there is a minimum team size in LDONs which has always made them hard for me and my spouse to do when no one lese was on.
So, really, all of the instanced missions that you can find in EQ, EQ2, CoH, WoW and GW are AO style missions not, LDON style missions. Just lettin' you know. :)
As for your comments about things unique to the new expansions, let me answer your questions:
What other MMOs let you switch and play as a lower level monster in Player vs. Environment?
Okay, the lower level MONSTER thing is pretty unique, but CoH has both sidekicking and exemplaring which allows one to bring a lower level character up to your level or for you to go down to their level, which makes gaming with your friends of differing levels easy as pie.
Also, Guild Wars has no grouping restrictions what so ever, aside from from team size. A 20th leve character can group with a third level character and not effect either's experience gain.
What other MMOs let you swith your class archetype to one drastically different than your own?
Okay, that is fairly unique though AOs Agents could pretend to be other classes and even do some of the skills and things, although not as well. Also, Guild Wars allows you to change your second profession as much as you want after your character has Ascended.
What other MMOs let you play as monsters in instanced single-group events?
That is pretty unique.
What other MMOs let groups from from players of any level and any class and compete in a challenging sealed environment?
I am not sure what this means but COH and Guild Wars both have instancing PvP maps that allow anyone of any level to compete in battle.
What this expansion shows, as do many of the others, is that the EQ team is very good at taking ideas that make another game interesting and incoporationg those ideas into the EQ system. Not saying that in an insulting way, in fact, it's what has kept them going after all of of these other, and arguably more modern games came around.
My big beef with their mission system is that it has never allowed for duos because, I am almost always in a game with my spouse and it is not always easy to add two more people. And, boy, does camping get boring real quick.
It's a shame because I really, really like my EQ character, too, and the Healers are some really great folks!
Comment Posted by: JOsh on September 13, 2005 05:24 PM
u sir saying EQ ripped from other MMORPGS .. (Keep personal attacks out - Loral)
WOW riped of EQ, SWG did, EQ2 did , UO did .. and much more...
this expansion kicks ass.
Comment Posted by: Arturg on September 13, 2005 06:41 PM
While i agree that some of the features in this expansion seem fun and neat and may even put a bandaid on soem of EQs worst issues such as LFG times and class desireability.
Why must sony continue with these bandaid fixes. When will they crack down spend a few months and actually DO something to get this game on a more fun path.
So i can play as a diff class eh? WHY i grew to love my class over the past 6 years. Why cant sony just expand on current classes and make them more unique / fun??
Monster missions are a cool idea but if its there "End all answer to lfg problems" they missed the mark completely. I dont wana have to reroll a new class just to have fun. I wana play the class i was sold years ago (monk).
About the missions rewarding 1 time rewards i can see the replys ill get already. "/tell PLayer1 hey wana come do X mission??" "Player1 tells you ive already done that no thx im gonna wait for Y mission" and this will repeat over and over unless thers a solid reward OTHER than the 1time rewards. This im not sure on loral can u expand?
Sonys huge downfall has been that they listen to the masses too much i think and wildly throw in new "Features" to "Fix" current issues while ignoring what that "Fix" destroys.
Instancing removing the feel of bein in a world not just plyain a game to "Fix" overcamping.
Free portals for half the zones in the game shrinking the world down to a few port zones off of PoK to "Fix" tedius travel issues.
Player made maps that kill any sense that was left of EQ being a world not just some game to "Fix" stupid ppl getting lost who have proven that they can regularly still get lost even with maps. (this is my most hated feature in EQ btw.
In closing Sony get ya heads outa your ass and look b4 u act. Think about the downsides to new content b4 u juts throw out new content to please the masses who in most cases cant or wont see the big picture anyway (myself included).
Ill prob buy DoD just to be able to play with friends and thanks Loral for the review it sounds "neat" but thats about it.
PS: wtf do i want my items talkin to me anyway. I already get enough spam lol.
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 13, 2005 08:41 PM
Local copy of mapfiend DoD maps:
http://mobhunter.com/dod_maps.zip
Comment Posted by: Jocko on September 13, 2005 11:36 PM
What I can't find anywhere is how experience works with the shrouds. Is there a monster exp bar somewhere or just the % listed under monster progression.
I played my 70 druid as a 40 goblin rogue in dulak today for about an hour--I only got to 2% monster progression for the shroud and about 6% regular AA. Sounds pretty slow to me, considering that I had read previously that monster exp was comparable to leadership points. Anyone have any further insight?
I also read on the veteran's forums over at eqlive that some runes are dropping that can be turned in for 69 and 70 OoW spells? Anyone know where they are dropping and whether they've been made tradable finally?
Comment Posted by: terb on September 14, 2005 12:46 AM
Hey Art, if you have so many complaints about how SOE handles their business why have you played their game for so long?
And please replace your dyslexic keyboard.
Thx mgmt.
Comment Posted by: Ludawyn on September 14, 2005 03:38 AM
Interesting review, thanks for the insight. The review was helpful to me as a player considering buying this, too bad it helped me decide not to buy but that's the breaks.
I just wanted to note something most of you will find amusing I'm sure, but I started playing a year and a half ago. I had to restart my character a few months in due to an upgrade issue I won't go into. I was out of work forever and had time to run up my character solo to level 24 before going back to work. Since that time (about 10 months now) my character has been stuck at level 24 and at the time hadn't upgraded to be able to do dungeons. I did get involved in the WoW betas and EQ2 which syphoned away time from my EQ advancement. When I had time to redevote to EQ I caught up on all expansions thinking I could do dungeons as my spouse had to catch up. To my horror, no one does them anymore in the areas I can play through. (Here's the point my ramblings have brought me to):
This expansion was touted on the official site as being for all levels. Since it's again only catering to the higher levels I won't buy it. If I can ever solo up to level 40 before fading off permanently I will get it. It does sound like a lot of fun, especially for the bored masses that are of superior level. Expansions should cater to all levels though. Being stuck in a low level limbo for so long, I've noticed no one is below level 45-50 anymore and there's no one to group with now-at least of what's left of the population from Morden Rasp.
The most important thing expansions should do, especially for maturing games like EQ is try to create the buzz for those new gamers coming online to try out a game and create a continual new influx of people, and yes, while offering new stuff for the time tested players to do. I think anyone new coming on is quickly discouraged and probably doesn't stick around because there's no one to level with. They can't get into the more recent expansion areas because the levels are too high.
I realize the older players are the lifeblood of the game for the most part, but as these expansions continue to target higher end players only, it's only a matter of time before the game will fade into the sunset. Most of the lower level zones are now ghost towns void of any population as the expansions have only held onto the top 20-30 levels of players.
So anyway, again good review - it was useful but it couldn't sell me. Out of curiosity, is anyone from a server where people are still starting out new and doing dungeons? As much as I love the newer games I frequent now, I still visit Norrath all the time and have hope my character will eventually mature. I might even pay to switch servers or start fresh if there's a chance of leveling somewhere else outside of Povar/Morden Rasp!
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on September 14, 2005 04:08 AM
If anything, most of what I have seen so far in DoD catters to non high end raiders. I would be hard pressed to agree with the above statement.
At least shrouds and monster missions will be more fun than doing tradeskill by some huge margin.
Comment Posted by: Glormane on September 14, 2005 04:09 AM
Apparently they have nerfed the Death Save from Pally Spell 'Last Rites', giving its name a whole new meaning.
Comment Posted by: Bunion on September 14, 2005 05:36 AM
There were a couple of posts that exagerated or mistated some of the features of WoW. First of I am going to say that I enjoyed playing WoW and I think it is a good game, but has some serious problems. First is even a nonpower player can get to 60 in a fairly short period of time. The problem is there isn't a whole lot to do once you get to 60. Well there is PVP in the battlegrounds, unless you unfortunately chose to play an alliance character on a non PVP server and there is a 3 to 1 Alliance v/s Horde ratio. Good luck ever getting into one, I never got to even see a battleground after trying for several weeks, I just gave up and finally cancelled my account.
Plus it is going to be at least a year for the WoW expansion to come out and I am not sure how they plan to keep players content for that long of period of time.
I am glad to see original EQ adding things to keep the game fresh and interesting. Of course not all people are going to like what they do, but oh well.
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 14, 2005 06:37 AM
"Since it's again only catering to the higher levels I won't buy it. "
Monster missions and spirit shrouds are useful and very fun for players of all levels. Saying the expansion cater's to only the high levels is not true.
Comment Posted by: John on September 14, 2005 07:19 AM
We formed up a guild group and completed a regular player mission in Stoneroot last night. The mission was fun and the final fight was very interesting. The cleric boss ended up rezzing waves of adds until we had over 18 mobs around us.
The only complaint I have is the single time reward you recieve for completing the mission. It was a 100 hp/mana no drop ring =/ I have no idea who would find this useful at the level of difficulty this mission presented, but it had absolutely no value to any of our members. Why make it no drop? It's a one time reward, make it droppable (with a required level to equip) so we can turn it in for individual tribute or sell in the bazaar for a few pp. At least in DoN we recieved crystals that could be saved for a nice reward or sold for a few extra pp.
While the mission itself was fun, our whole group felt very slighted with the loot. Only thing we could really do was destroy it.
Comment Posted by: Aceris on September 14, 2005 07:20 AM
Well I found a dataloss bug within 5 minutes of logging in.
Log in. Claim reward. Go see shroud guy. Servercrash. Rollback. Log in. Can't claim reward and don't have it.
Pretty pathetic that SoE with all their experience didn't anticipate this. Simply focrcing a character save after claiming a reward would probabaly work. Hopefully overloaded CS will be able to return my gargoyle tooth, but I'm not holding my breath.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on September 14, 2005 08:13 AM
I never felt the impression more than now that EQ is catering to an existing gamers community while WoW caters to people I know that don't fit remotely a gamer's profile.
Success for the corresponding public may not be reflected only by active subscriptions. One is a niche now. The other more like the Mc Donalds of MMOs.
I like DoD ideas but they really need to test their code better.
Comment Posted by: Corelulos on September 14, 2005 10:45 AM
I tried out the Spirit Shrouds last night as I'm sure many others did as well. My main toon is a Pally lvl 69. A few guildees wanted to go to Fear to work on a couple 1.5 drops. No healer types available. So I'm figuring what the heck good time to test out the shroud idea.
I hit up the shroud npc change into a lvl 65 kobold cleric... nowi have some 'AA' points to spend on some abilities. I spend em hoping to make a useful healer. I have ONE heal. and it sux. One buff.. it really sux. Two nukes.. they really suck too.
But I figure whatever... lets see how it will work out.
No gear, cept a staff. With no stats. altho not a bad ratio.
I review my overall stats. suckassy for a lvl 50 cleric. Let alone a lvl 65 one.
I zoned to Fear. within five mins i had healed three peeps and grabbed the usual agro and died. Ended up being a 2% exp loss to my main. I'm thinking ok that is not too bad.. only 2%. Later i found you can still get a regular cleric rez and get half of that loss back.
However by this point I am feeling a little dissapointed in the whole idea. I was really hoping that the shrouding was going to help with some of the grp issiues that I have on my pally... Namely finding a healer to do anything.
Seriously I really hate sitting lfg for hours on end... There is a distinct lack of good healers in the game anymore..
My guild has about 30 healer class members.. we have an active rate of those of around 2 to 5 of them on at a time.. if we are lucky.
I really am disappointed by the shrouds. I had really hoped that they would prove useful, but so far they aren't I havn't yet tried em out at the lower lvls. Also the progressive lvls may prove a little more useful. But am i gonna have to spend another year in real time leveling up a shroud toon to make it useful? If so then f*** that. I'll just make a healer class and lvl it up the old fashioned way.
As for the other aspects of DoD, the new zones look pretty cool graphics wise. I have yet to try out the content so i have no opinion yet.
Sounds promising tho.
/em tosses another 2cp into the pot.
Comment Posted by: Niccolo on September 14, 2005 12:13 PM
I bought and played DoD for about six hours. I have played EQ since Beta, and quit about a year ago, and I was eagerly looking for a reason to come back. My final verdict? Depths of Darkhollow is a massive failure of a final desparate attempt by a declining franchise to reinvent itself in an effort to stem the inevitable.
As a rule, I have enjoyed EverQuest in the past. It was a cutting-edge, interesting game, and most certainly as the monopoly of its time, incomparable. It had visionary, creative developers, excellent artists and top-notch coders. But today, EverQuest reveals itself for the mediocre game that it has become. Its systems are antiquated, slow, bulky and many times non-responsive on a variety of systems configurations. Its graphics and music are sub-standard across the industry. Finally, its game play is tedious, repetative and grossly uncreative from a challenge/response dynamic. How EverQuest can even hope to coexist constructively with the other titles of this age is beyond me. More importantly, why people would choose to dedicate their time to such an antiquated, mediocre, and declining franchise shocks me as an utter waste of time.
Loral cites friendship as reasons why he continues to play this game. Real friendships endure beyond the digital and persist into other areas of existence: through work, play, your real life, and so on. Are EverQuest players still playing EverQuest because leaving would pose a dramatic failure?
Nevertheless, as someone who has made friends on EverQuest in the past - friends that I keep to this day, and do not require the game to "maintain" as friends - I was eager nevertheless to jump back in to EverQuest and see if there were something there that interested me. I booted up Depths of Darkhollow and plunged into the game world. The Shrouds were a neat idea, but the execution immediately reminded me of something that made EverQuest sub-par: its reliance upon its old technology for toggling settings (using menial delivery and point-of-interaction encounters, for example) continues to perpetuate its legacy codebase. Traveling to Plane of Knowledge every time I want to change in and out of form to me seemed excessive. Couldn't there be a clicky that could only be deactivated during a zone, and have a cool-down timer? Oh, wait... cool down timers for items aren't really persistent in EverQuest ;).
Then, it happened. Death in Shroud form cost me experience to my main. I gasped with disbelief. It wasn't even the fact that it cost me experience, it's the fact that it cost me close to as much experience as I'd lose doing a regular death. Where is the incentive to use Shroud form if players are still penalized with this antiquated experience-loss beat-stick? Worse yet, weaker-than-normal characters in shroud form are to be expected, but completely useless and crippled classes are not. The Level 60 Healer archetype I played, just like the poster before me, was useless. Slow, awkward heal, meaningless nukes, and wasted buff. How exactly is this even remotely a feasible replacement for a missing class?
To be fair, not all of Depths of Darkhollow is a complete disaster. Some of the artistic improvements of Nektulos - while shocking to veteran players - nonetheless were an attractive departure from the predictable, as was the artistic design of the game zones and the accompanying music. But the major selling points of this expansion - the Spirit Shrouds, and playing as a Monster - seem completely useless to actually be fun. This could have really been a revolutionary expansion if SOE had only rebuilt the aging enging, drove new zones on this new engine, and departed from their culture of excessive player penalization which, when EQ was the only game in town could be justified arguing creative vision or game balance, but today has been proven to be backward thinking.
In the end, Depths of Darkhollow has only justified my decision to have quit EverQuest. I will not rest on my judgment alone, however, and will be distributing my character to my friends and asking them to try out Depths of Darkhollow to see what they think.
More troubling to me is what I have seen the original author, Loral, become. As a one-time player on Quellious who knew Loral in 2001, it makes me sad to see how a once-objective, insightful and critical thinker has become a slave to Sony Online Entertainment. This review, in Loral's own admission, is excessively fanboish, but it serves neither himself nor anyone else in the end. The former owner of Mobhunter won praise and elevation into SOE precisely by being critical and objective, intelligent and insightful. If Loral seeks entry into SOE, he's going about it the wrong way; or, if SOE does hire a kowtowing brown-noser as is evidenced by the original review, perhaps this game has finally sealed its fate as unsalvagable. However, I still cling to the solitary hope that radical visionary leadership can sweep into EverQuest and save it before the next round of server merges. After all, it is well known that EQ will close far sooner before it gets down to just "one server". The franchise and bandwidth costs alone, calculated in 1999 (before the real money started to come in), indicated that EQ needed at least 12 active servers in order to break even. Anything less than that, and you can count on EQ either shutting down or entering into stasis "emergency maintenance only" mode.
Again, a major disappointment this expansion has been. It's definitely not the radical reenvisionment that I was expecting or that SOE hyped.
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 14, 2005 02:32 PM
"Loral cites friendship as reasons why he continues to play this game."
I play Everquest because it's fun and because I like to meet people in-game. I have many friends I met in-game who no longer play and I still keep in touch with them. I wouldn't play EQ if I didn't enjoy the game.
"Then, it happened. Death in Shroud form cost me experience to my main."
Experience gained in shroud-form also goes to your main. The experience you lose on death in a shroud is the same as you would lose if you were that level. If you're a level 70 shroud, you will lose level 70 exp. If you are level 10, you lose level 10 experience. Shrouds weren't sold as a way to run around Norrath without a death penalty.
"Worse yet, weaker-than-normal characters in shroud form are to be expected, but completely useless and crippled classes are not."
Last night I used a level 50 imp wizard to duo in Cobalt Scar. I found it to be pulling its own weight fine.
"But the major selling points of this expansion - the Spirit Shrouds, and playing as a Monster - seem completely useless to actually be fun."
Did you try any of the new monster missions?
"More troubling to me is what I have seen the original author, Loral, become. As a one-time player on Quellious who knew Loral in 2001, it makes me sad to see how a once-objective, insightful and critical thinker has become a slave to Sony Online Entertainment."
I am no slave and I was always a fan. If you knew me, you knew this to be true.
"This review, in Loral's own admission, is excessively fanboish, but it serves neither himself nor anyone else in the end."
It may not have served you but it served many who have posted and have written to thank me for writing it. I tried my best to give specific, detailed, and accurate information within my gushing praise. I tried to cover every aspect in which I thought players would be interested including shrouds, monster missions, evolving items, hunting areas, and raids. If this review was of no use to you, I am sorry I wasted your time. However, not everyone feels the same way you do and it is inappropriate for you to speak for them.
"If Loral seeks entry into SOE, he's going about it the wrong way."
I have never written, nor will I write an article with the intent of getting hired into SOE. As I stated in a comment above, I wrote this review because I am that enthusiastic about the game. Given my experiences last night, which were obviously drastically different from your own, I was just as enthusiastic.
I grow tired of defending my own motivations over and over again. Who cares about me? In your decision to buy or not buy Depths of Darkhollow, why do I matter? Why should you care what goes on in my head? You have what I wrote, you can either accept it, dismiss it, ignore it, or disagree with it. You can take the parts you find interesting and throw the rest away. It is one of dozens of reviews you can freely read. I wrote more than once why I write these articles and what my goals and intentions are. If that isn't the sort of writing you want to read, don't read it.
"The franchise and bandwidth costs alone, calculated in 1999 (before the real money started to come in), indicated that EQ needed at least 12 active servers in order to break even."
Can I see a more recent source for this information? You and I don't know SOE's business, nor should we care. We're consumers who are either happy or not happy with the product and services we buy.
It is obvious you weren't happy with Depths but I think overdramatic phrases like "massive failure, and major disappointment" are a bit strong. Losing a job is a massive failure. Getting a divorce is a major disappointment.
You lost thirty bucks. Think of all the poor bastards who spent $50 for Sewer Shark or Night Trap (with Dana Plato) on the Sega CD. Now there was a major disappointment.
Comment Posted by: Stonehewer Forkenbeard on September 14, 2005 03:04 PM
I find it somewhat distressing that more and more, there is a large bloc of people who come to this site specifically to pick apart what Loral puts in his articles. This of course is the price of living in a free society, the right to dissent. But it's rude, it's rather uncouth, and it doesn't sell me on their positions, which usually involves "EQ suxx -- WoW (or CoH, or EQ2, or Insert game du jour here) is obviously better, j00 fewlz"...Honestly, I don't see a bunch of Wendy's customers walking into McDonalds and starting up a running bitchfest about how the latest McOffering sucks, on a daily basis. People for the most part in this world, when given multiple choices and choosing to favor one, tend to stay with their choice and associate with it. Why is it, then, that there are people who profess no love for Everquest, but who make a point to step onto this message board on a weekly, sometimes daily basis, and trash it? No room for live and let live? Can't leave well enough alone? I'm not a Ph.D, but it doesn't take more than a few seconds to see that Mobhunter is a site, about Everquest, currently written by a dedicated fan of Everquest, where he writes about, of all things...Everquest! And, wonder of wonders, he likes it! Zomg everyone, the site writer is an advocate of what he writes about! The horror! Checking all over this site though, on the message boards, the front page, and in the articles, I haven't yet seen the disclaimer that says "this is a fair and balanced site where we will pick apart all things in order to present a perfectly aligned view of everything in the MMORPG world". For chrissakes, THIS IS AN EQ FAN SITE! A fan, in this case the site's main writer, is gushing about the latest expansion for everquest! OMG, he likes it! Whodathunk it? Yet, the boo-birds still have to come out, auras of infallibility in tow, and tell us all that no, Virginia, there is no Santa Claus, that EQ actually isn't cool, and this expansion is helping it die. Good grief, go lurk on www.fairandbalancedRPG-games.com, if you really think that this site isn't providing the view you'd prefer of Depths of Darkhollow. Write your own site, please, and stop slinging mud on this one. Some of us fans are actually feeling the magic of this expansion, and, amazingly enough, enjoy Everquest, regardless of the warts that you naysayers insist on holding a magnifying glass to on a continuous basis, ad nauseum.
Thank you Loral, for your writeup. I didn't do beta, so I didn't have the mounting excitement like you did - and I forgive your fanboish outburst, if you're having that much fun then man, roll with it and tell the world, you're on the soapbox, we come here to hear what you have to say. Depths, is definately a differant feel though, and the zone layout, particularly the vertical build of it, is a nice change and is more than the old linear "there's the mob over there, and there's the castle, and there's the guardpost, and there's the zoneline...", followed by a zero-degree gesture towards a point on the horizon. I tried the spirit shroud, for only a moment, didn't get to fight but it's nice to not be Stonehewer the Paladin, slog-slash-and-heal, without having to spend 2 months taking another toon to 70 to play with my usual group (though my poor 55 zerker I've been grooming is going to feel awfully lonely if these shrouds prove to have great replay value). The monster missons I haven't had a shot at yet -- the idea of being Nagafen and turning a fleet of NPC's into dragon kibble makes me giggle though. It's definateley worth buying, overall. For the potential of what it can be, if nothing else, I bought it and I'm happy I did. Enjoy.
Comment Posted by: Niccolo on September 14, 2005 04:32 PM
Loral, no disrespect intended, however, my criticism of your article stems from my disappointment that Mobhunter, which was just a few short years ago a resource for critical analysis of developments in EverQuest's game design, has with your broad pen-stroke become SOE's mouthpiece. It is in this respect, best exemplified by this "In-depth Preview", that I believe the general public is being given a disservice, though no doubt, EQ fans will continue to enjoy comforting phraseology that makes them feel justified in their time investment.
QUOTE: Can I see a more recent source for this information? You and I don't know SOE's business, nor should we care. We're consumers who are either happy or not happy with the product and services we buy.
"EverQuest Companion: Inside the Lore of a Game World"; Brad McQuaid makes implicit reference to bandwidth expenses and break-even points, a fact that is later reinforced when he discloses the "minimum number" of services to break even to costs on the old Ultimate Bulletin Board EverQuest forums.
Again, I do not think your intentions were to engage in a conspiracy to mislead the general public or propagandize DoD. But having trusted in your critical reviews in the past on game issues, I felt personally misled by your review and felt it necessary for you to understand that you've lost me as a reader.
In the end, it's a serious disappointment to me because after reading your review, I thought to myself, "well, perhaps it is fanboish, but are there solid nuggets of truth?", and naturally, my expectations of what the game could offer rose. I felt seriously disappointed that the game did not live up to your hype, which further validated some of my fears about Mobhunter's current state. Nevertheless, I feel that much like it is not too late for you to temper your praise with mature and introspective criticism of EverQuest, it's also not too late for Sony to change this course of action and take major necessary steps - like it did with EverQuest 2 - to keep EverQuest competitive. Unfortunately, I think that needless praise will continue to insulate the EQ live team from the MMO realities impacting the market, and the game would be ultimately better served by serious analysis that helps push the game in competitive directions.
But you are, of course, entitled to your authorship, much like I am entitled to my reaction to your work. Thank you for your time in the article, nevertheless. It is obvious that you continue to derive a great deal of pleasure from EverQuest, but until you realize that there is a huge audience of people who yearn for that same enjoyment but feel continually betrayed by mediocrity and incompetence at Sony, I don't think you will fully understand the dissent that exists.
Comment Posted by: Horzek on September 14, 2005 04:47 PM
Wish I could post something about the new DoD but my experiences were limited to only 30 minutes of game time last night. Due to my confidence in finding a local store I wasted a fair amount of my time driving around only to find that not a single store close to me had a copy. What was worse was the incompetence of the store personal when I asked them about getting a copy. Most of them simply returned blank stares except for the one fellow who wanted to know if I wanted an Xbox game.
I did manage to finally sit down and actually use the net to get my copy coming so Friday I will finally actually see DoD content.
In the mean time I found a new little box on the bottom left of my screen that allows me to fore go some of my hot keys.
Im still looking forward to playing DoD and silently cursing you all who criticize without actual knowledge.
Comment Posted by: Redhenna on September 14, 2005 05:17 PM
I can't comment on Spirit Shrouds, I have not tried them yet, but I explored the new zones, and with the exception of the first zone, Corunthus(sp?), they looked great, were well designed, and very pleasing. We goofed around with a couple quests, and tried a task that was quite fun. First impression of the content was very positive.
The UI changes will take some geting used to, but may be ok. The AA's seem pretty decent in final form, I fell in love with the warrior 100 % melee stun immunity AA(that I forget the name of offhand).
Overall, grade for day 1 was a solid B+. Very solid effort from SoE, even if it was not exactly what I thought I wanted.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on September 14, 2005 05:24 PM
I think this comes down to a couple of basics from English 101 (okay, maybe only a good English 101 class).
Who is my audience?
What tone will enhance my credibility with that audience?
If Loral's intended audience is only EQ fans, meaning not just people who play the game but people who are overwhelmingly positive about it, then his tone is appropriate.
If his intended audience is broader, including people who play EQ but are frustrated with many of SOE's decisions, or maybe even people who are not currently playing the game but are still interested in it, then the tone of this article in particular reduces its credibility.
I suspect much of Niccolo's disappointment is that Mobhunter used to be written for that broader audience, but that simply does not appear to be the case now. I don't know if it's a "circle the wagons" reaction to the hype about other games or what, but it's a significant change. Loral has always been a fan, but his articles now seem to be intended only for his fellow fans.
If Mobhunter stays on its present course, the likely result will be a smaller, but tighter-knit community, united by a passion for EQ. Or it can go back to being a bigger community with much dissent. I suspect Loral will be more comfortable with the first scenario, and if that's what he wants then I think that by all means he should work toward it. Even though I personally won't be part of it.
Comment Posted by: chris on September 15, 2005 02:25 AM
Jesus what happened to Mobhunter??? What made this site great was the un-filtered view of EQ. Back in the day, I could come and get a nice review of the latest EQ expanision. Now??? ...
Loral could you be more of a SOE propaganda machine? This site is worse the Gamespot Now. Your reviews are right up there with "MTV movie reviews" and "RollingStone"
..and your slight shots at the other MMO games? they just make you look even more un-informed of MMO games and lead me to wonder who used to do the game reviews back in the day.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on September 15, 2005 04:13 AM
Hmm no. I rather say that a few morons that THINK they are smart and like to listen to themselves about subject they have no clue about.
If someone waste so much time on a GAME fansite that you dislike, chances are that you don't have remotely the brains to be a business economics expert. So why don't you take a quick reality check and learn some social skills?
Wait THAT's why some misfits keep cluelessly bugging Loral. They don't know BETTER.
Let it go Loral. It shouldn't get it to you.
And I would feel bad picking on you if they do it in the first place. P)
Comment Posted by: Naubi on September 15, 2005 09:37 AM
"Finally, its game play is tedious, repetative and grossly uncreative from a challenge/response dynamic."
This is where most EQ players would disagree with you.
EQ basic game mechanics are superior to every other MMoRPG released to date (whether by luck or by the fortune of having been the first true 3D-rpg designed with no goal other than to create something new).
It's what keeps us playing EQ (plenty of people in fact play several games... i.e. WoW AND EQ). Why do you think they do this... WoW has better graphics... a slicker feel (like any blizard single player game) and so on.
It's because WoW is not better than EQ in it's basic mechanics and dynamics.
Comment Posted by: Keisa on September 15, 2005 10:36 AM
I too find Loral’s review far too fanboyish to be palatable. The very thing that drew me to Mobhunter in the first place was the seemingly neutral reviews of just about everything in the game. Gone was the harsh criticism that was present on every other board. Here was one board that presented in a somewhat top of the news fashion what was good and what was bad about EQ. It was very refreshing. Now that Mobhunter reports all the good and next to none of the bad, it is far less useful of an evaluation tool and a barometer of the game. That’s my opinion.
However, I think it fair to point out that Loral has been advocating playing as a monster and finding some way to allow players of all levels to play together in the game. It is hardly a surprise that he’d be falling all over himself with praise for the very features he’s been so adamantly promoting for a very long time. This is the expansion that provided everything… everything he’s been begging for. Why shouldn’t he feel that it is the best thing since sliced bread? It’s hardly a big surprise to me.
He thinks shrouds are going to revolutionize the game and revitalize lower level play. I think it’ll be little more than a diversion for almost everyone. He thinks monster missions are awesome and will provide hours of fun for everyone. After playing one, I’ll find them fun for a bit, just like other games I’ve played and shelved. He looks forward to items talking to him in the game. I cringe as I think of the annoying jester. But, those are the things he has wanted for so long. I accept that he is excited about them.
What I look forward to are other things in the expansion, like expanded tradeskills that will make grandmaster armor more beneficial to everyone, AAs to expand my characters capabilities, more access to my level 69-70 spells and more areas to hunt. These are the things that enhance the way I play the game and will make life more enjoyable for my friends and me.
I don’t begrudge Loral for being excited about all the things he’s been wanting for so long. For him, it has to be like Christmas. I do, however, wish Mobhunter provided a more objective view of the game so I could get a better feel of it.
Keisa
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 15, 2005 11:40 AM
What are the specific things you guys would like to see? What specifically was missing from Depths?
Try to stay away from the huge fuzzy things like "complete graphics rebuild" and more into the details.
This isn't a challenge, this is an opportunity.
What do you want to see changed in EQ now?
Comment Posted by: Desiridea on September 15, 2005 03:30 PM
I spent time in Beta, I've explored since the release and all I can say is "How much are you being paid to publish this review?"
DoD is a DuD. Another GoD. Existing in game problems have been blatently ignored in favor of cranking out another expansion. Nobel's Causeway is still as laggy as it was 4 months ago. A flagging bug has made it imposible for a guildmate of mine to finish his SK 1.5. Guildhall crashes delete items and suspended pets. Alternate PoP progression is still broken. Drop rates on 69 and 70 runes are still so insanely rare its stupid.
What did we get? Nektulos Forest is now Nektulos Ditch nothing more than a canyon maze. Forest means trees not the zone walls made to look like trees. Corathus Creep? Welcome to munchkin land or better yet where's Princess Daisy and Mario? Undershore and Stormfall? There is nothing new graphic-wise here we haven't seen in Luclin or LoY. As leader of my guild I'm concerned that I can turn on Guild Tribute only when some unknown gremlin decides its ok for me to do it. I don't like not being able to target/con/loot mobs using mouse click thru my chat screen anymore.
When is SoE going to learn that people left EQ to play other games because SOE refuses to address problems and their Guides and GMs are down right rude if you question their brushoffs. Email support? Ha! Guides and GM's tell you to email your problems and emails tell you to /petition.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on September 15, 2005 04:23 PM
Well, since you asked...
The one thing that could bring me back to EQ is if they started making fights against multiple mobs the rule rather than the exception. More like the glory days of Old Seb. Multiple mob fights offer much more variety and complexity than fights against a single mob.
The problem is that to do that without going back to the days of the "essential enchanter" (though I've never understood why "essential cleric" is okay and "essential enchanter" is not) they'd have to make a lot of other changes. WoW makes it work with 1) more classes with crowd control abilities, 2) no class is so weak that they will be "one-rounded" if attacked (other than by bosses), and 3) the AE spells are viable. That's not the only way to do it, but it gives an idea of the kinds of changes SOE would have to make.
Let's face it: "extras" like spirit shrouds or monster missions are nice (especially if shrouds actually help reduce LFG time) but the core of the game, what we spend the bulk of our time doing, is fighting monsters in groups. If that's boring, then I really don't care about anything else. And fighting single mob after single mob really did get boring. I simply have much more fun in WoW instance runs.
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 15, 2005 04:42 PM
More multi-mob fights - got it.
Actually, I haven't seen all of the missions yet, but the Naggy mission has you fighting 18 people at at a time but it's not a PC-based mission so that probably doesn't count.
I asked for more interesting single-group events in my previous evil agenda - once I get into the missions more I'll see how they delivered on that. If the monster missions are any measure, I'm betting the normal missions will be more interesting too. Lets see what the normal missions have to offer.
The drop rate on 69 and 70 runes has increased a lot. I am already hearing about drops off of DOD mobs enough that some were complaining about it. Anything that they add on top of Riftseekers will make it easier to get 69 and 70 runes.
There is a reason we have a comment forum on each article on Mobhunter and that's to get alternative views and a wider range of information.
However, you would have a stronger arguement and a greater ability to change things if you focus on details and less on metaphor and funny wordplay.
What specifically do you not like and what specifically do you want to see?
Comment Posted by: Horzek on September 15, 2005 07:29 PM
The man says he wants more multi mob type encounters.
I suggest you take a good look at the MPG trials. You could also take a look at some of the DoN encounters. Circle of Drakes comes to mind. Multiple waves of drakes all trying to stake claim to a certain circle and your 24 man raid job is to prevent that from happening. Its fun, challanging, and amazing loot should you win. It requires every person in the raid do their job and great team work. I dont remember the time frame but it seems like the total event can be done in 30 minutes or less.
Give it a try some time.. fun and challanging
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on September 16, 2005 04:48 AM
I like the idea of circle of drakes.
DoN was more straightforward no non-sense smaller scope.
DoD has some of the defects of Omens with remote instance zones, see invis trash on the way, screwed up geometry within, no reasonable time to recover a wipe, small objects sticking chars while getting beaten by mobs. Multiple annoying things that make the experience tedious. Not fun.
a) remove see invis trash on the way to instances.
b) put the relevant NPCs on find 'cause it's already tedious enough to wait for people before, after, in-between.
c) make access to instances a 5 minutes hike MAXIMUM (multiple zone lines triple the travel time easily. which means maximum ONE zoning away. Travelling within one zone is ok but zoning multiple times is not.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on September 16, 2005 04:51 AM
I forgot: DoD is NOT clear enough on objectives, NPCs, zones.
How many times people asked in POK what that tooth for?
How many times people asked how to access DoD?
How many times people looked for npc xyz or zone line wxy?
Convoluted. Tedious unnecessarily tedious.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on September 16, 2005 01:42 PM
Horzek brings up a good point. There are lots of interesting fights against multiple mobs in EQ--but the bulk of them are for raids. I didn't raid much in EQ, so I never got to see many of them. I was speaking of single-group content, and should have made that clear.
When I quit I felt like SOE thought single groups didn't want challenges, just places to farm. My impression is that DoN changed that, but nothing I've read yet suggested that multi-mob fights were a major part of the change. And I do mean major--in WoW dungeons, mobs you can single pull are definitely the exception.
So I'm glad there are some fun encounters, but I'm only interested if the typical encounter is fun.
Comment Posted by: Loral on September 16, 2005 02:34 PM
On the naggy mission you fight 18 people at once.
I'm not so worried about the single vs. multiple encounters as I am about interesting encounters in general. I just want encounters that aren't typical pull, fight, heal, kill encounters we've seen for the last six years.
It's too early to tell with Depths but early signs show a fair bit of variety.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on September 16, 2005 02:43 PM
You're right Loral--the end is interesting. Multiple mobs is just a means to that end. I think it's a good one, but I'll take interesting in any form I can get it.
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