Home > Breaking News: SOE to broker the selling of Items, Money, and Characters in EQ2

I wonder how much it costs for pwn?

Breaking News: SOE to broker the selling of Items, Money, and Characters in EQ2

by Loral on April 19, 2005

I thought my last article was a good one and I was hoping to let it sit and gather some good thoughts. It had some of the best posts I've read in some time. Tonight, however, John Smedley made an announcement that forced me to push that article down a notch and cover a new topic.

Tonight SOE announced that it will facilitate the selling of money, items, and characters on specially flagged Everquest 2 servers. This is perhaps the largest announcement of a feature or trend since I've started writing for Mobhunter.

The letter does not speak at all about doing something similar in Everquest and it is clear from the few folks I spoke to that they are only planning on considering this for EQ2 for the moment. One wonders where it may lead if successful.

There are a thousand facets to this topic. I can't begin to cover them all and hope to get this article out while the news is still hot so I will say this:

I think it's a mistake.

This is basically a trade between time and money. I play Everquest 2 and progress because I want to see new places. Now I, an employed yuppy with too much time on my hands, have justification to simply trade in a few bucks for the time it would take me to earn my progression. It completely changes the investment in EQ2. It also begins to show a disturbing trend towards quick fixes and direct response to player requests rather than considering the whole problem and where it can go.

It is important to understand that SOE is not creating these characters, money, or items but instead offering a safe transaction system so that players can sell among themselves. I had a much stronger reaction until this point became clear. It isn't like SOE is selling a level 30 any time they want, but I can buy a level 30 if someone is willing to sell it. SOE will not be establishing the price. Still, this adds a level of authority and validation to a practice that so far had been considered sleazy.

Everyone knows how much I support SOE as they move forward in Everquest. Lately, with the shift towards solo play and now this shift towards item, character, and money purchasing, I worry for the result to the social bonding of players in this game.

I don't play EQ for items or money or levels. I play this game to meet other players and go on adventures. I understand clearly the investment of spending time to earn levels to see new places and hunt in new lands. Now that line becomes gray. Should I spend my time leveling to 30 or should I just buy a level 30 and go read a giant George R.R. Martin tome instead?

There's a thousand facets to this subject and I have a feeling we're going to see a lot of them on the forums over the next week. Before you place judgment, make sure to read the letter a few times and sit and think about the issue. May Tunare watch over us.

Loral Ciriclight
19 April 2005
loral@loralciriclight.com

Here's a thread round up including quite a few posts by Smed and the other devs:

John Smedley Discusses Station Exchange
On the subject of Station Exchange
Comments after reading the first round of posts
WTH?

Update: This was posted last evening on a thread called Update: Existing Servers Will Not Be Converted to Station Exchange:

To restate: Next week's polling will be used to determine how many new servers we need to start up at the service's launch. It will not be used to determine whether any existing servers should be converted. There will be no current live servers switched to the Station Exchange ruleset. (bolding from the original post, not added later)

Later, if the popularity of the service grows and it becomes apparent that we need more than the two planned servers, it will be because people have moved from other servers, which means those servers' populations will have gotten smaller. If that occurs, we may merge lower population servers together if any have gotten below the point of remaining a healthy community.

Post a new message.

Comment Posted by: Walpurgiss on April 19, 2005 08:47 PM

To Quote like the first paragraph of that link:

"To be clear, all we are doing is facilitating these transactions. We are NOT in the business of selling virtual goods ourselves."

Comment Posted by: Walpurgiss on April 19, 2005 08:50 PM

I only post that, because while in the topic, you say 'broker,' in the link, the statement reads that they are selling items themselves. Just a clarification :p

Comment Posted by: Loral on April 19, 2005 08:56 PM

Very sorry, I am editing the article live and fixing it as I go. You are correct and I fixed that link and added a further clarifying paragraph. Consider me the Fox News reporter who announced the death of the pope three times before he actually died.

Comment Posted by: on April 19, 2005 09:32 PM

This is the beginning of the end of EQ 2.

Comment Posted by: Xalmat on April 19, 2005 09:43 PM

While I wholeheartedly do not support this change in policy, I will say that I do trust SOE more than I do a third party.

They have made it painly clear that this will be a truly optional service, and not all servers will be Station Exchange enabled. No doubt the player population is largely against this change, myself included. But as long as its optional (opt-in) I don't have a problem with its existence. Those that want to buy and sell items will always do so whether this service exists or not, but as long as I can continue playing on a server where it's not allowed, then let people waste their money.

Comment Posted by: Talaen on April 19, 2005 11:02 PM

I do not like the precedent this sets.

I have always been against buying and selling items and game money for real-world $$$ and adamantly against trading characters in any form.

I do think, however, that it's been proven that people are going to do this. I sincerely HOPE that SOE's aims in this are to regulate the practice and to confine it to "niche" servers instead of it being everywhere and underground.

So in that sense, I hope SOE puts IGE out of business.

Comment Posted by: Hirebrand on April 20, 2005 12:34 AM

On one hand I consider that within the last few years the expansion of computing into India, China, and other low-development high-population nations has opened an enormous supply of labor. They are willing to try anything to make a buck they can do remotely. Combine this with a vague distaste for the general practice of plat farming and general attitude of N.I.M.B.Y. Therefore I think this will be a flop.

On the other hand I look back to EverQuest's $40 a month server, wonder that people are willing to spend quite a lot on their entertainment, and then consider the frugal reasoner that considers his time being turned back into money after tiring of the character and game. Therefore I think it will be wildly successful.

Comment Posted by: Maeven on April 20, 2005 02:08 AM

I am one of those who finds the buying/selling of account & items & plat "sleazy." BUT... there apparently is a demand for these services, so SOE would be crazy NOT to do this.
(1) They will get a small 'fee' from every transaction, so they will be making more revenue...and denying it to outside auction agencies.
(2) this will reduce a lot of their 'fraud' complaints that take up a lot of Customer Service resources to investigate, and
(3) At the same time, this protects the players from the afore-mentioned fraud by ensuring a secure means of exchange.

Comment Posted by: santino on April 20, 2005 02:30 AM

I find this appalling. I will not be playing EQ2. If this goes to EQ, I will not be playing EQ.

I work anywhere from 50-70 hours a week. I have very little time for gaming, but still squeeze in EQ when I can. This lack of time means I cannot / do not raid, and that large portions of the game are closed off to me.

And I still think the idea is horrible, and it will have a large, negative impact on any game it is implemented for.

Comment Posted by: Xyldarran on April 20, 2005 03:01 AM

Come off of it.

Do you guys think this is a new thing? The buying and selling of items/money/characters? Do you really think no one has ever done this before? I could post a million websites where this is going on this very momment.

The fact is as long as these games exist there will be people selling items/money/characters. No matter what SoE or blizzard or whoever does this will be a common occurance. Sony has been fighting it for years, but now they realize it's not something they can stop, like dowloading MP3s on the internet. There will always be a way to do it.

So Sony decides to do it themselves. Bravo. Now we have a controlled way of doing it. Sony will be making more money which can be used towards the game (unlikely I know, but still possible) and the GMs won't have to deal with petitions regarding these things anymore. That = more free GM time.

The people who have never buy will still never buy, and the people who are willing to buy will still be the people willing to buy. the fact that you assume this will change your gameplay at all is a sign of ignorance. You've obviously never heard of Yantis.

Comment Posted by: Yantis on April 20, 2005 03:06 AM

This is a very bad idea and probably spells the end of EQ2. They should rethink this and abandon their plans immediately before it ruins the game.

Comment Posted by: Redcloud on April 20, 2005 04:05 AM

"I worry for the result to the social bonding of players in this game."

Are SoE financial results THAT bad or everquest 2 population so much declining to decide something like this?

Comment Posted by: Kubb on April 20, 2005 08:57 AM

I don't think it will impact current players; they may have some quit but probably not many.

On the other hand this makes EQ2 look bad to new players. Why would I play EQ2 where someone with more money than me will have better stuff than I can get when I can play any of the other MMORPGs where at least theoretically things are more fair.

Yes there are these sorts of things in other games too but none are officially sanctioned and therein lies the difference.

Smedley is a businessman who cares nothing for games except how they can make him money. Good on him but I don't want to parttake of the games he puts out.

Comment Posted by: Loral on April 20, 2005 09:54 AM

Shameless plug. I got quoted in the Wired online article on the topic:

http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,67280,00.html

Comment Posted by: Eski on April 20, 2005 10:22 AM

I'm wary of this because they said they wouldn't do it, then they said they might if people wanted it (what was the vote result?), then they say they will do it but not allow transfers from buy-your-way-to-godhood servers to normal ones....

What's the probability of them changing that last rule? It's in the way of short term profit!

Other things that worry me:

There's already been one killing over money for goods bought from a MMOG... when real money is concerned, people can get vicious fast. People have rarely killed over chess. Poker on the other hand...

I can see that if the market is really as gigantic as $200 000 000 per year (where did they get that figure from?), then criminals would get involved. I hope that SOE has thought about this and has talked to the law enforcement agencies.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on April 20, 2005 10:43 AM

I don't see how "just" allowing players to sell to each other is better than SOE creating and selling the items themselves.

The sad reality is that MMORPG farming is a profitable business in some countries, and the Station Exchange servers are going to be a farmer's paradise. A lot of EQ players may not have seen professional farmers in action (I hadn't until I started playing WoW), but these operations buy accounts and have people playing them 24 hours/day, in shifts, solely to sell what they get for cash. The end result is a flow into the game of cash, items, and high-level characters that simply would not be there otherwise, as surely as if SOE were just making them themselves.

But the difference is you have to live with the farmers. I'm not saying they're bad people--I'm sure most of us would play differently if our paychecks were on the line. But their paychecks are. Thus they monopolize the most profitable content, and are often quite aggressive in defending it. If they're leveling up new characters to sell that means they'll be doing it in newbie zones as well. It doesn't help that they often don't know English, so the negative feedback they get from other players means nothing to them.

A very unpleasant side effect of those negative interactions is that you end up with a culture among the players that tolerates racism. Not that there's ever any excuse for racism, but it's what happens. I'm sure the harassment they get doesn't make the farmers feel any better about Americans either.

The only redeeming factor in SOE's new policy is that you have to choose to be on a server that allows buying and selling. Part of me is thinking that the people who provide the demand for farmed items deserve to deal with the side effects of how they are supplied.

Comment Posted by: Perc on April 20, 2005 10:49 AM

EQ2 is dead... lol. Anyhow, if they want to facilitate the buying/selling of virtual stuffs, are they going to have to adjust the EULA? Dunno. I always thought it'd be neat to buy a toon (not that I could afford one). It's not like I'm going to miss all the fun stuff I went through with my main, it's more... wow, this is kinda fun playing a *anything but a cleric* hehe. Then if it's cool and I start up another toon, maybe I'll do that one?

Comment Posted by: on April 20, 2005 10:57 AM

It is a huge mistake. It was my impression that the reason SoE has never aggressively pushed against the plat farmers and account sellers is because they never wanted to end up with the lawsuit as to whether virtual items had monetary value.

Now, they are effectively monetizing those same virtual items. Besides the debilitating effects on the game from legitimizing what is effectively cheating (advancing in a game through external jiggering) now they will have the problem of having effectively admitted that in game items have external monetary value. So bannings, LDs, outages etc. which cause a loss have now caused a monetary loss. They're going to regret this.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on April 20, 2005 11:29 AM

So much for EQ2...but what about the MMORPG industry as a whole?

The IGE comments in the Wired article are right on that this is a great thing for them. I kept hoping that some company would finally have the guts to sue them. But now if anyone does, and it comes time for the game company to explain how trading in-game stuff for RL cash hurts their game and thus their bottom line, IGE will just point to EQ2 and say "See, SOE doesn't think it hurts their game at all." And obviously it helps legitimize the practice when a major player in the industry endorses it.

The saddest part for me personally is that Blizzard did not categorically rule out doing something similar. They're "waiting to see what happens."

And there's my main hope. If the exchange servers tank, then everyone will see that trading in-game accomplishments for cash hurts an MMORPG.

So here's hoping the farmers are absolutely insufferable, and that the buyers get an empty feeling from everything they accomplish with their bought characters and gear.

Comment Posted by: Beewell on April 20, 2005 12:12 PM

Loral always seems to keep a level head about things! Read so many overexcited responses to this. But if SOE is admitting to 40 percent of their customer complaints turn out to be about this (and since everybody has to lie about it that is only the ones they figured out) Just think if they could free up half of that for wofking honest tickets!! Happening anyhow so I say why not. Put em on their server and leave us alone LOL

Comment Posted by: Tantrik on April 20, 2005 12:19 PM

For the life of me I can't figure out why people think this is a bad idea. Like it's been pointed out, they are not producing the items out of thin air. The items that go up for trading will have been obtained through the games play mechanics.

Another point to think about. It seems people think that the direct influence of RL money "corrupts" the game in some fashion, but money already plays a factor. Why is it wrong for someone working a full-time job pay a little RL cash to buy an item that saves them hours of camping or whatnot, but some trustfund baby who has all the time in the world to play these games gets put up on a pedastal for having done it "the right way". People need to realize that real life wealth already has a big influence on these games.

Another point to consider is how secondary markets help keep games alive. Where would EQ be today if every new person coming into the game had to start from scratch at lvl 1 with zero AA, zero keys, zero flags?

Now please realize that I would never be in favor of a company simply creating characters or items out of thin air. I think that would be going too far in upsetting in-game economies, but as long as the characters or items were obtained through legit game mechanics and play then I see nothing wrong in facilitating RL cash transactions between players.

Comment Posted by: on April 20, 2005 12:35 PM

My thoughts on this are simple, people hate e-bayed players, how is this so different?
On EQLive this problem could be controlled through No Drop items being the best in the game, this only gives people easier access to the bazaar bought gear.
On EQ2 this is a huge problem, almost everything starts out merely as "attunable", e-baying the gear, just not the exp. Combine this with the fact that the survey that was done to come up with this tactic was done on EQLIVE NOT EQ2, what is Sony thinking?! I really cannot condone this under any circumstances, any achievements that I put all of my effort / drive into for weeks can be matched by a rich teen out there shilling out 200 bucks OR LESS?! No thanks.
And before you flame this to no end, yes, I am aware that the servers will be restricted as to where this will be taking place, but the precedent set by this is such a slippery slope you might as well call it a free-fall. Also, if I see more GM activity doing anything at all online because of these changes I can honestly say I would be in shock.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on April 20, 2005 12:37 PM

The irony is that a major reason, perhaps the major reason, people play MMORPG's is because they get a sense of accomplishment from getting in-game rewards. Heck, many feel like they ability to get in-game rewards somehow makes them a better person. EQ has been very good at fostering this illusion, and it has served them well by keeping people playing.

But making those rewards available for cash cheapens them. Thus it reduces the incentive to get those rewards, and in the long run, to play the game at all.

SOE may be sacrificing their long-term survival for a short-term revenue boost. One would think they'd understand the psychology of their customers better than that.

Comment Posted by: Stonehewer Forkenbeard on April 20, 2005 01:10 PM

All I want to know is, hey Loral, did you get permission to use that guy's face for your story's avatar, or are you going to be paying royalties? =p

Comment Posted by: Loral on April 20, 2005 01:14 PM

Cory Doctorow, editor of Boing Boing and Canadian science fiction author, wrote a short story called Anda's Game:

http://www.authorama.com/book/andas-game.html

It's an interesting look at how companies use real life resources in third world countries to sell gear to rich kids in the first world. It's a great story and a good view of the complexities of a system like this.

I don't think this will lead to cutting back on IGE's sales until SOE begins doing it on all servers, which seems like the next logical step. People on current live servers will still want to buy and sell even if SOE does it on a new set of servers. A much better approach would be to establish this as a model in a new game right in the beginning instead of trying to bring it to a game already in existance.

This new system will completely change the value of items. No longer will I consider the time investment without considering the possible financial investment. Is it better for me to hunt for a prismatic sword or just buy one?

The other problem comes from a disturbing trend I see in newer MMOGs. Instead of deeper massive online games that reward players for establishing social connections we're seeing a focus on solo play in short time periods with options to buy or sell characters instead of working them up from the beginning. It may be good business but I think these recent changes hurt the core of what these games are about: meeting people and having fun with them.

Perhaps this is that core difference between EQ and EQ2 that we've always discussed. I doubt they will establish something like this in EQ now that its hit the venerable age of six years. At least, I hope not.

Comment Posted by: Loral on April 20, 2005 01:16 PM

I would have loved to see your face when you hit Mobhunter and see your own mug greeting you =) Welcome, Lord Veldin Stonehewer!

Comment Posted by: Siwel on April 20, 2005 02:14 PM

Loral doesn't like using Wood Elves... they too brittle... had to use a husky, beer drinking, beard licking (gotta get every last drop of that beer) Dwarf instead...
Back on topic, Bad, SoE, Bad.

Comment Posted by: Illudar on April 20, 2005 03:39 PM

Dear God, what have they done...
I havent seen THIS much of an uproar ... since... well... since the last huge change SOE made.

Seriously though...
I dont like this one bit... not one bit.

Heya Stoney!!

Comment Posted by: WaterProofFlameRetard on April 20, 2005 03:54 PM

Ok ... I've sat here and read the multiple posts about people saying this is horrible. Granted this is your opinion, but what are you basing this on? Perhaps the "toon" you encountered was bought by avenues you detest. And perhaps, there is a learning curve to many MMOs. And perhaps, there are more people willing to live outside of the world than in these created ones. Mabye people should look at the bright side of these introductions & "improvements" to games as just that. When you hear about someone at work or school talking about a bad experience at any establishment, what is your first thought? Do you have the same tastes as everyone else, or do you want them to? Where this leads, no one knows ... I repeat ... no one. If this happens to tank, do you think it will stay? if that does happens, eventually everything will go back to normal. Let me ask this question, do you enjoy sitting for hours on end ... for weeks at a time, farming plat or camping a single mob to get that single coveted drop? There are many other things they could do to make certain that the "high end content" unavailable to these people. They could go and take certain flags off of characters. If you buy a toon through there service, you would have to get re-keyed for whatever your interests are. In that sense, it's good because if you don't know how to play a certain toon, you do need the practice and should not be in those zones wreaking havoc. So before everyone starts to think that this is horrible and will ruin games ... please unplug and look at the life arround you. Why can certain people have gigantic homes. Why can certain drive the expensive imports. And how is it that there are people that spend $200 on tennis shoes? Because they earn the cash to spend it. Do you detest people with money that they earned? Do you detest people that are skilled enough to make a living at whatever trade they are working? Everyone, in some sense, has a hard time with certain things about things in their lives. That is human. If you want better ... achieve ... don't expect. Now, there are obviously going to be the "trust fund babies" in the world. So is true in any MMORPG. If anything, this will boost the ammount of people you encounter ... good and bad ... the choice of relavence is yours to make.

p.s. - sorry this ranted for so long :P

Comment Posted by: Solistic on April 20, 2005 04:02 PM

My question is; In the near future are we going to add to the discussions of "non raid to raid guilds/players", the rich player. Will we see the subject lines of "closing the gap between the Rich players that can buy their way to the top, and the poorer players that have to work for their gear and levels". Will SOE have a tendancey to court the rich players that will buy the highest level toon on the market and the best gear on the market?

Somehow, I feel like this is similar to the cheat codes that use to come out with those old games, and that the makers of the Sims capitalized on it by posting them on their board.

After years of asking people to report the players that are selling plat and toons in OOC. They are now encouraging and endorsing this practice.

I am not happy, if it does come to EQ1, you will have the abbility to buy your raiding guild.

One day you are socializing with someone you thought you knew, next day the same toon does not know you, or want to have anything to do with you. Some other real person owns that toon....
So much for encouraging a social friends meeting and making friends game.

Comment Posted by: Brian on April 20, 2005 04:11 PM

This is very sad news. It seems to me that customer service will actually create more problems from fights over camps/mobs now that they have an official cash value associated with them. One wonders when the first lawsuit against SOE will occur because a GM doesn't respond fast enough to a camping and/or kill stealing complaint.

Also if you think SOE won't be creating cash or goods, don't kid yourself. The instant Smed needs to quickly improve his numbers for a quarterly financial, you can bet he'll turn on the spigot.

I guess the question for me is, do I reactivate my EQ1 characters (including a decent amount of plat) and sell now or wait for the official SOE sanction when they'll be worth less?

Comment Posted by: Redcloud on April 20, 2005 04:24 PM

I'm glad I experienced MMRPGs before this kind of decisions took place.

And I hope I'll be gone from EQ1 before SoE implements it there.

There's really no redeeming for a company to bypass it's own content for a dollar bill.

Comment Posted by: on April 20, 2005 06:17 PM

It's similar to using god mode on a FPS. Up until that point, you probably were having a good time. Once you crossed the line and cheated, the game loses its appeal.

People who will buy items will soon leave as they won't have any satisfaction or accomplishment in their characters. People who don't will be disenchanted with the now open, approved, cheating and leave.

The fact SOE is getting a cut of action is disgusting. For shame Sony.

Comment Posted by: Talaen on April 20, 2005 07:26 PM

For a long time I've been a proponent of playing in the spirit of the game, whatever game you play. Playing the game it was envisioned to be played, rather than taking the shortest, quickest, or easiest path to get to the top of the game or outdo your peers. Mostly that means not engaging in things like grinding, powerleveling, twinking, muling, and so on. You create your character, and you play the game. You go experience the content - explore the dungeons, do the quests. Leveling up or getting a new item is a bonus, a part of the story that you're weaving in the game, and not the goal.

There are a lot of people out there who don't agree with me about that. I like to point out the RPG in MMORPG, but to many players it just doesn't matter. All they care about is getting to whatever looks most exciting as fast as possible, or progressing through equipment or levels as quickly as possible. For them, it's all about the cheese at the end of the maze, and if they can, they'll hop over walls to get there rather than find their way through.

Who's right and who's wrong? It's an impossible question to answer because there are so many people on either side of the fence, and quite a few in the middle. I have good friends in various games who don't feel nearly as strongly as I do about this stuff, but we respect each other's opinions and we manage to play the game together in spite of that.

People who feel as I do (we seem sometimes to be the minority) have, up until now, found solace in the fact that the game developers and publishers ultimately seemed to believe that we were in the right, and that all those "shortcut" activities were bad for the game. But not anymore.

That fact alone upsets me. I enjoy playing MMORPGs, and I have a lot of fun in them. But I don't enjoy it when I run into someone who bought their character or their gear on an auction site, or whose idea of gameplay is to go sit and grind levels in the quickest way possible. A lot of people have asked me why I don't play on roleplay servers, and perhaps that's due to a lingering mistrust on my part for people who would advertise the fact that they're RPing rather than just quietly doing it, but every time I run into a twinker or an ebayer or a farmer I ask myself if maybe I shouldn't reconsider that opinion.

Regardless of how I personally feel, the decision has been made to go ahead with this experiment, and while I wish it would fall flat on its face and prove once and for all that most gamers don't like this kind of thing, I am pretty sure that won't be the case. And it really worries me for what the future holds. Ten years from now, will I still be able to play a game without having to whip out a credit card to keep up with my friends? Will I still be able to even find a game with a decent population where players actually share the same ideals that I do? Will people like me be relegated to special rules server or games past their prime that haven't implemented these systems? Will we be denied the newest technology and content simply because we think it's important for a game world to maintain it's integrity and believability?

I make a good salary in real life and so I don't approach this from a position of jealousy, as so many of the auction supporters like to complain. I am a time limited player as well - the days of being able to spend 8 hours online are long past. I just believe that it's wrong. It's not what the genre is supposed to be about. And I am very afraid that now, because of this change, because of the apparent indifference or even support of so many people who in my view just don't get it, that in a few years I won't be able to have as rich of an experience online, nor will many people I know.

At this point the die has been cast, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Comment Posted by: Teremar on April 20, 2005 09:11 PM

Just imagine what this is going to do to guild dynamics.

"Hey guys, can we schedule a trip to Deepdark Dungeon? I want to get my Wand of Amazingness."

"Aww man...Deepdark Dungeon is a royal pain. Just go buy the darn thing! Look--there's a Wand of Amazingness for sale right now. Only 200 bucks."

Or the new uber guild requirements:

"Members will be expected to donate $20 each month to the guild equipment fund, which will be used to buy gear that is vital to the guild's progression. In addition, members are expected to spend at least $100 each quarter upgrading their own gear."

"Guild bank" could have a whole new meaning.

Comment Posted by: Redcloud on April 21, 2005 03:16 AM

Guild bank took already another meaning with a well known guild whose officers sold on PA/Ebay for cash. The story doesn't say for what purposes, web cost, mules/bots or a new car, but it already turned that way some time ago in rare and public outcries.

Now knowing that even at a guild level, sold raid gears and toons could total easily the 10s of thousands of dollars one might expect to see a whole new headache of legalese, RL feuds, etc

From a hobby, it becomes more and more of a business on the end-user side. A hobby for the rich, a job for the poor? Maybe it needs rules like in sports: pros may not compete with amateurs. Amateurs have this and that restriction to respect, etc.

I just don't see how it could be applicable to a game but that's another matter.

Comment Posted by: Redcloud on April 21, 2005 03:20 AM

Seeing what happened on Lineage 2 with farmers and other similar problems, localisation of the game gets a whole new meaning.

Comment Posted by: on April 21, 2005 06:17 AM

Posted by Yantis at April 20, 2005 03:06 AM

This is a very bad idea and probably spells the end of EQ2. They should rethink this and abandon their plans immediately before it ruins the game.

?????

Comment Posted by: Pants on April 21, 2005 06:21 AM

I've said it before here and other places and I'll say it again, SOE is getting progressively worse at running MMORPGs. They are simply incapable of thinking in the long term. This is only the first step. Mark my words they will eventually sell preleveled characters and manufactured ingame cash or items and it won't be limited to a few servers on EQ2 only. It's already been done by EA and look how well that worked, but SOE won't learn from them. This will completely throw any game economy out of whack. The only thing that can keep in game economies somewhat stable is the occasional removal of cash and items from the system. With the buying/selling of accounts and money, and the even more scary thought of SOE just making characters or money to sell, the supply gets out of hand, exceding demand and making things next to worthless. It is shortsighted to think that this will have little or no impact on players that will eventually cause many to quit in frustration. If any of you think it's all OK go play Lineage 2 and see how long you want to play that piece of garbage. The whole idea just cheapens any advancement or accomplishments one obtains in the game, and caters to the lazy and bad players.

I personally think higher ups in Sony Corp should fire Smedly. Look at his track record in the last few years. SWG is a complete bore and a mess, requiring them to retune the entire combat system, as well as being somewhat of a failure considering they have the most popular science fiction francise in existance. EQ has went from over 400k subscribers to who knows how many now, but definately WAY lower as evidenced by all the server merges. EQ2 has had a good initial release but seems to have sputtered in it's growth rather quickly and has not been the kind of success I think they were hoping for. Planetside? LOL! Now SOE will be known as the company that runs games that aren't really games but just something you can invest in and buy your way to the top, thus defeating the whole point of playing a game. I know this was his idea, it has Smedly written all over it. I don't believe his justification for it, and in fact I think he is and has been a liar for a long time about many things he claims. Apparently he can't just leave well enough alone and ride the success that EQ was. He has to keep coming up with these "brilliant" ideas that further alienate the true gamers who want to play these games as a game, meaning earning stuff in a fantasy world and having fun doing it without sacrificing one's life to do it.

If they do this in EQ also (and I do believe they will by the end of the year) I think the somewhat revival of the game in recent months will come to a halt and the decline will continue again. But yet the fanboys will continue to make excuses for the bad decisions and continue to swear by an old, broken down and cheapened game. As a final point calling people whiners who played the game for years who don't like the idea of cheapening their accomplishments is immature and basically acting like a jackass. How would you like it if you worked at a job for years and someone else came in and bribed the boss into promoting him ahead of you even though he is not as qualified? It's so easy to think only about yourself and your own greed until a little of your own medicine slaps you in the face.

Let the games be games!

Comment Posted by: Pants on April 21, 2005 06:26 AM

My referral to EA concerns Ultima Online for those who do not know. That game has become a joke thanks to similiar actions on EA's part and is fast dying. Lineage 2 is also pathetic with frmers ruling the game and ruining the economy. No impact at all eh?

Comment Posted by: mac173 on April 21, 2005 11:03 AM

[quote]Comment Posted by:[b][i] Yantis[/i][/b] on April 20, 2005 03:06 AM

This is a very bad idea and probably spells the end of EQ2. They should rethink this and abandon their plans immediately before it ruins the game.[/quote][br][br]

Pretty ironic, wouldn't you say?[br][br]

I'm not supprised by this, but I am dissapointed. The solution is to catch the cheaters, not join them. I will have to finally get my main to max level after 4 years, just so I can feel I've done it before the game is ruined and I have to leave.[br][br] The fact that SOE is gonna get a cut of the transactions means they will do everything they can to accomodate this, including supporting the farmers. It will be in their best interests to do so. So the game will become a "class" defined game, with the classes defined as "Rich" and "Poor", and the poor folks will be ignored.

Comment Posted by: Oniadar on April 21, 2005 02:38 PM

In other news, this was posted by the Dev Zajeer on the EQ boards. While I'm happy about the MoD addition (very happy!), the comment about Time gear an "expansion or two" away worries me considering what Loral has said about the gulf between casual/raider, which I agree with.

"I'll be adding an item with Minion of Darkness to the DoN merchants next patch.

Not yet. Maybe in an expansion or two when Time gear becomes commonplace. Until then, Minion of Darkness is the highest you should be able to get in single groups."

http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Magicians&message.id=2284#M2284

Comment Posted by: Loral on April 21, 2005 03:34 PM

There's actually a pretty heated exchange going on the EQLive boards about gear progression for single-groupers:

http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=78190

Comment Posted by: on April 21, 2005 03:56 PM

If SOE is truly interested in getting rid of IGE, make the selling free. They're basically legitimizing the sale of virtual items for RL cash regardless of their eula and 'selling rights to use' clauses.

But guess what? SOE is in it for the money and IGE is evil because they are in it for what? Oh, the money....

Comment Posted by: Braxis on April 21, 2005 04:51 PM

My fear is that this will remove the in game economy and force people to use the station exchange if they wish to obtain some of the rarer items in the game. If this is successful I think it will be available on all servers and eventually all SOE games.

This will promote greed among players and guilds now that items and characters will have monetary values.

-Braxis

Comment Posted by: Armarant on April 21, 2005 11:25 PM

"" Wrote : If SOE is truly interested in getting rid of IGE, make the selling free. They're basically legitimizing the sale of virtual items for RL cash regardless of their eula and 'selling rights to use' clauses."
....

.. I would look at it as.. the lesser of 2 evils.. if sony did it they would be the lesser of 2 evils.

While I am not fully convinced this is the right way to go and never will be. I do imagine of a time when the characters and items exchanged in this method were not farmed by some person in a third world nation.

too bad legitimizing it wont stop that though.

/sigh

Comment Posted by: Anthy on April 22, 2005 03:22 AM

This could be either good or bad, depending on what they do with servers that are not designated for this. If they begin a strong crackdown on any and all selling activity on non-sanctioned servers, then I'd say it's a good thing whether it succeeds or fails. In theory. It reduces the number of sellers and buyers on my server. People will buy less, especially if there's a crackdown on non-sanctioned servers, and the sellers will probably focus on the sanctioned servers, where their market will likely be larger than elsewhere.

There's too damn much legal issues here for anyone but a team of lawyers to really figure out, and even then it'd likely have to be tested in court, but like someone said - this is definitely going to weaken the stance of 'it's OUR data, you can't sell it' that the games have been taking so far.

Another question that comes up is, if there's a server crash, rollback, etc, that causes people to lose items...couldn't legitimizing this open some doors for SOE to get sued over loss of items and revenue? I mean, if someone loses Uber_Weapon_1351 that they were going to sell for $400, having SOE recognize that these things are worth money could open them up to being held accountable for the loss of such items. It may be legally no different than if a computer error in a bank caused $400 to dissappear from your account. (Note, I'm neither a lawyer nor an expert, but it seems like logical speculation to me). And what do the legal repercussions mean for other MMOG's? And what happens down the road when these games are dying and they finally decide to shut down the servers? Are people going to be able to hold the company responsible for all the millions of dollars worth of equipment and in-game currency that the players have accumulated on their characters?

Beyond the obvious effects on the economy (EQ is an excellent example, but it's even more noticeable in games like Lineage II and FFXI), there's a lot of Important Stuff that could have repercussions for decades to come on the entire MMOG industry, whether it flops or succeeds.

Comment Posted by: Pants on April 22, 2005 07:16 AM

I read the thread on gear progression and found it amusing how the raiders continue to try to keep the casuals way far below them and out of their little sandbox. When I played EQ I played both sides, first non-raider, then raider and finally back to non-raider before I quit. After seeing it from both sides I agree with Loral (miracles can happen LOL). The major shortcoming of EQ besides it's age is how casual unfriendly it becomes once you hit that invisible wall of progression. It basically requires people to change their playstyle in order to progress any further. They have put in many small scale encounters in recent expansions but how are people in lower end gear supposed to do many of them with the difficulty of mobs increasing so much?

In a way I think SOE considers the brokering of the sale of accounts part of the solution to this problem, and it is a very bad one if that's what they intend. They really better start considering the long term impact of major game changes, and especially of services like this one if it hits EQ too, more thoroughly or they aren't going to have much of a game left in a year or two. EQ no longer exists in a vacuum with little competition. With games like WoW and CoH out there that have much smoother progression paths and that are much more casual friendly they will be lucky to have any casual players left in EQ at all. I don't even bother mentioning EQ2 as an alternative because I don't consider it a game anymore now they will allow people to legally buy their way to the top with RL money.

Comment Posted by: Redcloud on April 22, 2005 07:38 AM

SOE should, would, need...

Raiders are the devil, I tell you.

Raid gear is VITAL to kill 500s hitting mobs that don't AE for 4k and so on and so for.

That one is not a debate this is a one way rant dripping with greed and jealousy.

Saying that it may not be as fun to gear up in single group as it should be is valid, saying that it's not possible is BS.

Comment Posted by: Loral on April 22, 2005 09:00 AM

Please see the update in the original article:

"There will be no current live servers switched to the Station Exchange ruleset."

Comment Posted by: mac173 on April 22, 2005 10:24 AM

"...couldn't legitimizing this open some doors for SOE to get sued over loss of items and revenue? "

Actually, no. They are opening up the ability for paying customers to trade items and plat for real money. They did NOT say they no longer owned the items or plat. They did NOT say the items and plat has a real dollar value. They have never admitted to that. They have said that the sale of items and plat is hurtful to the product that they market, but not that the virtual items have real value. This leaves no opening (legally) for someone to sue for loss of value.

Comment Posted by: Loral on April 22, 2005 11:33 AM

"Comment Posted by: Redcloud
Raiders are the devil, I tell you."

Thank you for finally coming to our side, Red! Yay!

Comment Posted by: Teremar on April 22, 2005 11:40 AM

I've always assumed the reason no one has the guts to sue IGE is because they're deadly afraid that a court would rule that in-game items have value and belong to the players. Then the entire MMORPG industry would be in trouble.

I'm not a lawyer. But it seems to me that if you help someone buy item X for $50, and then a bug or a database error destroys item X, you've sure helped them make the case that your bug just cost them $50.

Seems to me you're on safer ground by saying "In-game items cannot be sold, thus they have no real world value. And if they did they all belong to us anyway." than "Yes, you paid $50 for that item using our Exchange service, but that doesn't mean it's worth $50 or that you own it."

I presume they'll have a ton of legalese you have to agree to to use the Exchange. It had better hold up or it's not just SOE that could be in trouble.

Comment Posted by: Anthy on April 22, 2005 03:40 PM

"They are opening up the ability for paying customers to trade items and plat for real money. They did NOT say they no longer owned the items or plat. They did NOT say the items and plat has a real dollar value. They have never admitted to that."

But that's clearly what they're admitting. They're setting up a safe method of exchanging in-game items for money. If such items did *not* have a real dollar value, there would be no such exchanges.

A quote from someone on another board about this topic: "I was part of an incubator team that played around with this exact idea for about 6 months, but in the end we couldn't get the lawyers involved to buy off on not being exposed to too much risk.

Even if it's disclaimed, acknowledging the fact that your virtual objects have a monetary value by brokering the transactions is way outside of any legal precedents in online gaming, and it was too much of a risk at the time we considered it.

I do think that it's going to be very interesting to not only see how this works out, but also see any repercussions of the risk they (may be/are) taking on."

Comment Posted by: Horzek on April 22, 2005 04:21 PM

So I have to ask you one simple question. How do you feel about grouping with someone who is financially exploiting you? Do you have a right to demand a share of the profit of your group work?

Somehow it makes me feel like I have been quietly robbed. If there is honor to be found in the game then I would like to see ebay types and farmers clearly flagged as just that. If you can control their selling, them you can mark them so others can know what type of character they are grouping with.

For myself, my characters, my avatars are slowly and loveingly tuned to my play styles and they become a part of me. I could as soon sell you a kidney or other body part as to part with my little guys. In my view anyone who would pimp their characters is nothing more than just that, a pimp and a harlot.

Horz

Comment Posted by: Loral on April 22, 2005 05:35 PM

Given Smed's recent statement that only new servers will be Exchange servers, I'd imagine you would assume everyone is either out for a buck or playing with bought gear.

Either way I think those servers are going to be pretty ugly to play on.

Comment Posted by: Maitreya on April 22, 2005 07:34 PM

As long as it's confined to certain servers, I don't see a problem with it. It's not like this is anything new. It just means exchanges will now be handled by Sony instead of IGE, or shady plat farmers you know nothing about.

It might actually turn out to be a good thing, as I imagine those who participate in the buying and selling of virtual goods and characters will play on Exchange servers, where they can do it legally, and we'll see less of this sort of thing normal servers. I hope.

Comment Posted by: Horzek on April 22, 2005 08:31 PM

In fact, if you really want to know - I'd rather part with my younger brother than sell this amazing collection of pixels I've lovingly nurtured to the end game.

Comment Posted by: Jack on April 23, 2005 06:58 AM

I think it is a very bad step to make.

If this goes in, then I think some people will get into problem in RL, I have friends that are addicted to this time of game already.

I can see that they might get problem because shall they pay this bill, or buy an item in this game ?

I think that SOE are going out into a market that they should keep away from.

If it goes in, I can only recommend my friends not to play any game at Sony.

Comment Posted by: Sapatino on April 23, 2005 07:05 AM

It says that Sony will not go into market themselves.

QUOTE: "To be clear, all we are doing is facilitating these transactions. We are NOT in the business of selling virtual goods ourselves."

But who watches over that they are not going to do it ?

If there is a 200 million market, will it not be a temptation not to make a few fake characters, supply them with equipment and then sell it, giving the compagny some profit ?

When the game begins to run out, it will be easy to make it last a bit longer by selling some extra equipment......

Comment Posted by: Chorrakian on April 24, 2005 01:21 AM

There seem to be a lot of people who truly believe this is a mistake on the part of SOE. I say people fear change. One of the post adequately stated in the form of a question ... do you really believe this will change the gameplay? Those who buy will buy and those that don't will not buy. Simple, end of story. Furthermore, this change is currently slated "from my understanding" to take place on selected servers and not the other servers that are currently being played on. Boom, you hate this practice soooo much, don't play on those servers. If I hear something that I find to be offensive is currently at the art gallery ... I don't go! Don't play on those servers.

A lot of players have used similar services with various acution sites and performed these, up until recently, questionable transactions. At least now there will a controlled scenerio, so players don't get ripped off. This is a service that will be offered by someone. It might as well be SOE. I am reminded of a line of lyrics from one of my favorite bands and for lack of the correct starting word I will start it with ... everyone "keeps spreading the disease that everybody needs but nobody wants to see the way society keeps spreading the disease".

All these people say what a horrible idea ... what do they do when we can't see their noble words or actions. Face it, Humans are hippocrits!

Comment Posted by: iineni on April 24, 2005 03:40 AM

i for one do not want this to ever make it to eq1 ..for me to just think that i have worked my butt off for the gear i have now and ect....i hope it wont go any farther than eq2 ..if it does go to eq1 i will not be play anymore what the point in it ..if u can go and buy uber gear and ect what the point in playin ....

Comment Posted by: Pants on April 24, 2005 08:36 AM

"do you really believe this will change the gameplay? Those who buy will buy and those that don't will not buy. Simple, end of story."

You do realize that these games are called MMOs for a reason don't you? Because they are massive multiplayer games. You don't play in a vaccum. Well imagine playing with a bunch of people in your group who never bothered to level their characters but bought them instead. They have no idea what their role is in a group and you're grouped with them. Leave the group right? Oops the next group is the same way, too bad for you but luckily it "didn't change your gameplay" any did it? Oh you're in a guild, that's nice. Where did that new guy come from? Did he buy his account? Can you count on that new cleric knowing how to do a CH rotation?

"Furthermore, this change is currently slated "from my understanding" to take place on selected servers and not the other servers that are currently being played on. Boom, you hate this practice soooo much, don't play on those servers."

Yes it is currently slated for new servers, and Smedley also said they will consider putting it on other servers too, what's to say they won't also consider putting it in their other games? So your server could eventually be converted over without you having any say in it. Transfer right? Well what if the entire game is converted to this? What if all their games are converted to this? It could very well happen. It certainly shows they are considering it by even starting this service up to begin with and they already stated they are considering spreading it.

As for others who think this will put IGE/Yantis out of business, get a clue. Firstly EQ and EQ2 aren't the only games out there, WoW has more subscribers than both combined, so how is the actions of SOE going to put them out of business? Also they are just acting as a middleman in sales between players. What if many of those "players" selling accounts and cash on SOE's own service are in fact farmers/bot runners working for Yantis or IGE? After all they now have a legitimate forum to do so. Oh yeah SOE said they are going to crack down on that, YEAH RIGHT! They've done such a good job so far doing it (that's sarcasm for the slow people). Believe me there will be minimal effort on their part to crack down on anything especially since they will be taking their share not only from the seller but the buyer too. Not only that but it will all be legal and now IGE/Yantis have a perfect defense should any other company take them on legally.

Lastly from an ethical standpoint I find this wrong. It's a game world, self contained with it's own set of rules. Except now you can bypass the rules and any restrictions on progession. What's the point in even playing anymore? It's akin to buying an X-Box game, putting it in, loading up cheat codes and cheating your way to the end. They are cheapening the massive amounts of time the real players put in to advance to where they are today. I know in today's society of spoiled brats that people like to make up their own rules as they go along and try to justify any action they take as OK so they don't have to feel any guilt, but to some of us there we still have out own moral code we live by and we don't throw them away just because it's not convenient anymore. Oh yes this will effect a great many people who play these games, and may effect the entire MMO market, in a negative way. Just think of one huge Counter Strike game with everyone using hacks because buying your way to the top is no different. It's called cheating except now it's not cheating anymore thanks to SOE. WTG Smedley for giving us legit, real players the big finger. You will never see another cent from me and don't think I'm the only one.

Comment Posted by: Pants on April 24, 2005 08:45 AM

By the way I have read their update on how they would not be converting existing servers to this exchange service but that does not rule out it ever happening someday. After all SOE for 6 years said the sale of ingame items, cash or accounts was against their rules and they did not condone it, yet now they are condoning it and facilitating it. If this service makes them a lot of money I guarantee they will spread it to existing servers at some point. Smedley doesn't exactly have a track record of honesty to go on over recent years.

Comment Posted by: on April 24, 2005 11:35 AM

I have real worries that this will encourage the botters even more. Say you write bot programs. You practise them on the exchange servers, then use the cash as R&D for something even more sophisticated. As it stands, EQ1 had players who setup up their computers with the right botware, and then went away for a week or whatever to find they had maxed out AA, then they spent the max, rinse, repeat. Now in eq2 it's moved up a step, with botware running artisans, who might be producing junk, but are producing a lot of junk, to the point of creating lv 50 crafters, that can then be resold.

The effect of botters is to make sure SOE doesn't improve the game. Why? Because repition, the fundamental requirement of automation, is intrinsic to the model. Instead of having a system where things have to be repeated zombie like, something like the quests would have been better. I never feel the crafting system is more than a simple minigame and sometimes i read while i craft. Sure, some people love it. Some people love solitaire. I feel no passion for it because it is too simple. Complicated things engage players and are hard to automate. Think about playing sports; they don't have robots doing that because even bipedal movement is was too difficult let alone team communication, strategy, adjusting to wet weather or rough turf. People who play sport are involved. People who cave, or climb, are involved, and crafting has to be something that involves you, and not combat's poor cousin.

I think Soe should make a competion to think of a crafting system that avoids repetition, is complicated and difficult but rewarding, which is fun RIGHT NOW and not when you have finally finished the fifty subcombines and get to fight hard for the final one. This would deprive botters of a major market.

I find combat fun most of the time. My skills let me make a difference, i have more to look at than the table, i have social interaction should i choose, and so on. I think bot combat in eq2 would be much harder than eq1, but it's always going to be a race. The thing is, if bot programmers can run an arm's race then so should SOE. Instead, I'm afraid they have waved the white flag, and the disease will spread.

Meanwhile I'm looking for a CRPG as involving as planescape was (Huge attention to plot and character!) Anyone know of one? It just looks like the MMORG market is planning on self destructing, and becoming yet another fad we will vaguely remember and discuss nostalgically.

Comment Posted by: Holdupasec on April 24, 2005 06:32 PM

Most of you need to come off of your high horse and realize a couple things...

1. Buying and selling is already occuring, and has been occuring for years now. It didn't kill EQ, and those of you who say it will kill EQ2 are grandstanding vice making an informed statement.

2. Consider that you are in the minority with said 'grandstanding...'

The market is there, Yantis has made millions.

If it is sooooooo wrong, why is there so much money to be made then...That's right, the market is there...Meaning for every one of you whiners, there are scores of players participating in that market...

3. You are the very same people that whine and moan about content, etc.

New zones - costs money
New models - costs money

If charging a fee for the transactions THAT ARE GOING TO OCCUR REGARDLESS! helps pay for said content and keeps the game going for a longer period of time.

I say go for it.

EQ is dead, LONG LIVE EQ...

What's tommorrow's EQ/EQ2 killer going to be? You whiners will think of something.

Get off your high horses.

P.S. Please cancel your accounts, thanks.

Comment Posted by: Chadopro on April 24, 2005 09:41 PM

Let the truth be told, I must confess:

As a former Everquest (Addict) Player, I have a unique perspective on this topic. Towards the end, real life restraints (marriage, new child, job) began to limit my ability to maintain level progression with my crew of guildmates. As a fix, I resorted to purchasing platinum as a method of enabling my character to have top notch equipment, which would enable me to level faster. So yes....I was one of those scumbags.

The reality is: having that nice gear did enable me to hang in there for a while and further enjoy the game with my friends. But alas the end was inevitable and I sold my accounts as I departed.

So, Buying platinum slowed down the eventual demise of my EQ life.

Economies exist, both good and bad: gamblers pay bookies, who in turn pay the mob. People/Companies selling platinum and items to working stiffs like myself supports a similar economy. It seems only logical that a for-profit company would want a piece of the pie. My only concern would be (like earlier posts have said) the company selling has 100% control of its supply thus the potential for a monopoly (a less addictive, 4 player boardgame)

I do think that the urge to purchase is a bandaid for the EQ player, and a sign of the beginning of the end. The sheer beauty of the game is less meaningful when not earned.

Leaving EQ did save my marriage, but I still have Mobhunter and Loral to help soothe this nagging addiction (Talk about an EQ patch!).

Comment Posted by: eski on April 24, 2005 11:14 PM

Note: This comment isn't appropriate or worthwhile to the conversation. Keep the conversation on track.

- Loral

Comment Posted by: Holdupasec on April 25, 2005 07:43 AM

Keep personal attacks out of the conversation, please.

- Loral

Comment Posted by: Eski on April 25, 2005 09:46 AM

Keep personal attacks out of the conversation.

- Loral

Comment Posted by: Holdupasec on April 25, 2005 10:50 AM

Keep personal attacks out of the conversation.

- Loral

Comment Posted by: Stylx on April 25, 2005 11:22 AM

It stops becomming a game the moment you spend time to earn money from it.

Comment Posted by: Redcloud on April 25, 2005 12:14 PM

Unless someone lives in a cave, public image and PR matters to companies. Branding and marketing matters.

Making a company look bad matters. The bigger, the more.

Discounting armchair business theories...

The next financial savy kindly presents his credentials in business economics before stating to paying customers what does or doesn't matter to them about the changes to the service they pay and/or how the relevant company conducts business.

Preteen cynics need not apply.

Comment Posted by: Holdupasec on April 25, 2005 12:49 PM

Red, how long have you played EQ? I'm gonna assume you've been playing for awhile.

Therefore you know damn well SOE is only concerned about the bottom line $$$, that's it.

Branding and marketing are tools that affect that bottomline, you might need credentials to understand that, however anyone with common sense does not.

Throughout all the years of EQ, the only time SOE has truly listened to the masses was last year when they delayed OoW and held the summit.

Now back on topic...people are buying and selling EQ items/plat every hour of every day. SOE knows this, you know it, I know it.

And I have to point out...you're still playing and thus paying, and so am I...

Knowing that, and the fact that SOE is a 'bottom line' type company, do you honestly think they are not going to try and exploit that market?

So the big question is: Will the criticism/negativity outweigh the potential monetary rewards they might obtain from becoming an active participant in online buying/selling?

I say no, simply because over the years I've seen oh soooooo many people shout at the top of their lungs that X issue was the final straw, and that they were done with EQ. Yet, they're still here.

I suggest the monetary rewards will definitely outweigh any such criticism, and I back up that determination with the fact that most of the people posting here that despise that practice are still playing the game.

Remember, SOE is all about the $, don't be naive and think otherwise.

If SOE was concerned about 'image', EQ would be a much different game imo.

So I'm looking on the bright side. I don't buy or sell, however I could care less about it. It doesn't affect me, period. You can bring up economy issues, blah blah, however I'm a raider, I don't deal with the economy.

Now if SOE can funnel this money back into the game...and there's another big question...where's the money going, and use it to develop new content, and keep the game going, then so I say go for it.

If idiots want to spend real $ in giving fees to SOE for buying/selling in-game items, no harm, no foul imo.

Oh and you'll notice I'm not putting morality into the equation, simply because I don't think there are any morality issues involved in this matter.

The 'crusaders' obviously think otherwise, however they're just itching for something to whine about, and this is the flavor of the moment.

There, now you made me type out a book...enjoy.

Comment Posted by: Loral on April 25, 2005 01:27 PM

Pardon my fanboiism for a moment but...

SOE is indeed a company built on profit but in my discussions with many members of the development team it is clear and obvious that they love the game they are working on. SOE isn't a single giant entity with a single drive, each person there has a unique personality, background, and motivation.

As far as listening to customers, I personally feel that they do it too often. Players in EQ2 demanded solo content. Now its there and I think it hurts the core purpose for a massive online game. Players scream and yell about class balance. Last patch we saw 600 spell changes as the first step with an outlined approach for more changes. People complained when server names were established based on popularity and now they will do a vote instead.

Raph Koster, Creative Director at SOE, has a great list of rules collected from his time in the MMORPG field. This one sticks out a lot to me:

Hal Black's Elaboration:

"The more responsive an admin is to user feedback of a given type, the more of that type the admin will get. Specifically, as an admin implements features from user suggestions, the more ideas for features will be submitted. Likewise, the more an admin coddles whiners, the more whining will ensue."

Here's the full list:

http://www.legendmud.org/raph/gaming/laws.html

Some great stuff for us couch potato game designers.

Anyway, its not accurate to say that SOE hasn't listened. They listened to class balance whining, they listened to server merging whining, and they listened to solo whining. There's a lot of excellent change that they've made based on feedback as well including the corpse alter, the "go home" button, the mission system, and the new quest system.

By the way, Raph also has an essay on selling in-game stuff for real life money:

http://www.legendmud.org/raph/gaming/charsell.html

It's written about UO and its dated, but I think its relevant.

Comment Posted by: Loral on April 25, 2005 01:36 PM

I had to just cut out four of the comments posted here for personal attacks. Please try to keep conversations on track and talk about the issues, not eachother.

Comment Posted by: Loral on April 25, 2005 01:38 PM

The New York Times had an interesting article about Massive Online Games today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/25/technology/25matrix.html

Here's an interesting statistic for you:

"One multiplayer game, EverQuest, from Sony Online Entertainment, had more than 400,000 subscribers for several years. Its sequel, released in November, currently has 350,000 players. Sony has estimated that the franchise will deliver $500 million in profits over the course of its first eight years."

Comment Posted by: Solistic on April 25, 2005 02:37 PM

Maybe I missed it. So someone creates a character on the designated server or buys a character on the designated server. What stops them from transferring to another server once that have everything they want for their toon. Cerainly not money.

Comment Posted by: Tarzel on April 25, 2005 04:28 PM

Loral,

Need your sage advice:

My son called from college and has decided to quit school and sell EQ2 characters full time. OMG! I mean playing is one thing, but earning your living from Norrath?

I guess I better start the starving EQ sellers website. I will accept paypal donations, and have a starving EQ sellers webform that they can use to request funds for pizza and coke? Is that the prefered food of people who play 22 hours a day?

Maybe I should talk him into being an EQ sellers manager? I mean that sounds like a promissing career choice? Maybe he can talk his college into a new curriculum, virtue labor management?

I would think the turn around on these characters is going to be high. I could not imagine a server based on this type of progression would be able to sustain a guild able to do Tacvi, Anguish, end of expansion content. Will be an interesting social experiment to watch. Maybe by the time I am ready to retire this will be a great place to pick-up a second retirement income =P

Tarzel

Comment Posted by: Redcloud on April 25, 2005 05:32 PM

Just to make a point clear: it's not about whining, rants, armchair designing/business.

It's about your first hand game experience.

Agreed a number of people will not care that 99% of the people around them bought their gear and characters. Like everywhere there is a good and sometimes massive amount that just don't care about anything unless a rock falls on their head.

There is quite a number of in-game situations I can think of that would be uglier with ebayers:

-group content balance (ebayers vs non-ebayers)
-bazaar prices
-raid content difficulty
-loot contention, in group and raid
-raid character longevity (ebaying when reaching a good price instead of helping the guild progress)
-guild gear accretion

and so forth. As I said, people not impacted in the longer run by EQ, won't care. Many won't find it immersive or just too tainted and will avoid eq or quit.

I'm not looking forward to all sorts of situation that I've already experienced first hand and that would change scale in my opinion. That alone will turn a number of people away.

Does it off-sets SoE profits? Maybe not if kept low profile and low impact. Can it pay out for the game? I don't think it will be a decisive factor about the amount of money invested (knowing other dev process elsewhere. Can be completely wrong in this case).

My 2 cp.

Comment Posted by: on April 25, 2005 11:10 PM

I hav a few pcs at home and a want to make money7. Can ne1 tel me what proggies to buy to run bots? I don' like eq but my friend says i can use his account for a cut.

Comment Posted by: Talaen on April 25, 2005 11:58 PM

/hijack on.

Slightly off topic from the general discussion, but Loral I have to disagree with you on the solo content in EQ2. From what I've seen so far, it's actually done a lot to ease pressure on many players. Especially with the latest round of population changes.

EQ2 has been experiencing above-normal attrition for a game so young for a while now, primarily (in my view) because groups were required for roughly 70% of the game past level 20 or so. The player base in EQ2 is for the most part much more time-limited than what we were used to in EQ1 - nearly everyone I know plays relatively short sessions and doesn't log on every day. These people would get up into the 20s and quickly falter because past that point nearly every quest they got (yeah, even the kinda stupid ones) required strong groups (as in 4-6 including at least one healer), and their options outside of quests weren't any better. In the meantime there's plenty of other games out there for them to play that don't require that.

At the same time, the raiding game in EQ2 is still in its infancy, and it's nowhere near the EQ1 raiding game, which means most of the hardcore raiding types who really love that kind of play are still in EQ1.

What the solo content changes have done is slow down that attrition rate. A month ago I lost nearly a dozen people from my guild to WoW, in every case they got invited to try the game by some RL friend or picked it up on their own and next thing I know they just didn't care to log into EQ2 anymore. (Side note: this was as much a result of the attitudes of many players that came over from EQ1 as it was a result of EQ2's content).

Most of the players I meet now actually have started the game in the last month or two, and very few have been around since Day 1 unless they're people that got themselves into a powergaming-type guild and are now doing the level 40-50 stuff with their main character - those are the ones who would be raiding Guk if this were EQ1's release all over again.

But with the new changes there's a better chance for EQ2 to retain the more casual players, which in my view is better for the game as long as it's still competing with EQ1 for the raiders (and losing).

I love EQ2 for the depth and detail it has over WoW and for the fact that it's a nice clean slate after years of mudflation and other fun things (like ebaying) in EQ1. However, there's some areas where it doesn't compete so well in my opinion, and the solo/casual content balance was one of those. The content changes help with that quite a bit, specifically because now players only generally have to group for the stuff that people actually want to group with you for.

The other areas, if you're wondering, are:

- Raid content through midlevels (there's very little, and high levels have more but not lots). Granted EQ1 has years of a head start though.

- Single-group thematic content (instanced dungeons). WoW instances beat EQ2 instances hands-down for sheer fun factor and originality. Not that EQ2's are bad (I love Firemyst and Nektropos Castle), but WoW's instances blow most of EQ2's instances out of the water, at least the ones the game shipped with. The adventure packs should fix this over time but it will be a while before EQ2 catches up in this area. This from the perspective of someone who does an instance one, maybe two times, and then moves on to other content. EQ2 has the edge when it comes to single-group hunting in non-instanced areas, by far.

- Crafting/merchanting. EQ2's crafting system is neither easy to use nor casual friendly, in the effort to make it challenging and non-macroable they pretty much leeched the fun out of it for a lot of players. They also seriously goofed up with interdependence and recipe distribution as well as the usefulness (balance) of crafting professions. On top of all this they didn't offer offline selling, even when their primary competitor did. They're getting better, but they also slapped a bunch of band-aids in some poorly chosen places too.

Keep in mind that on all of the above I am a player and a guildleader on a heavily populated server and I am relaying my personal experience and impressions. Your mileage may vary.

Also keep in mind that despite its flaws, I still prefer EQ2 over WoW, EQ1, and SWG most of the time (although I still do log into those). This is specifically because EQ2's content for the most part has more depth, realism, and challenge than the other games do and I can still play it 3 days a week for 2-3 hours per session and feel like I'm accomplishing something.

/hijack off.

Comment Posted by: ykina on April 26, 2005 09:23 AM

Frankly, this saddens me. It reminds me of Magic the Gathering. I first started playing that when it came out, and had great fun playing with my husband and friends. But when the game turned into who had the biggest wallet to buy up the perfect deck, I lost complete interest in the game.

I actually have quite a few black edged rares, but they sit in a box at home. Every year or two I look at my Magic cards and wonder if I should pull them out to fiddle with them, and think ...nahh...

It's not that I can't afford to pay for stuff. My husband and I make good money. It's that for me, the game is about feeling pride in what you do. Buying stuff is like using a GOD mode hack...it's a cheat. Monty Haul worlds are fun for about 3 days, then they become boring.

For those of you that argue that no one is preventing me from doing just that regardless of what others do, I say that for me, this will ruin the game. Once you open the floodgates to cheaters, the fun will be gone. I know that it happens. And frankley ebayers disgust me. But to legitimize it? WHAT are they thinking?

I've been playing this game since before Kunark came out, and have dodgedly refused to move to EQ2, WOW, or CoH because I love this game and value my friends and the sense of accomplishment I've gotten from playing.

But if this goes live to the EQ1 regular servers, it probably will be the last straw for me. (

Comment Posted by: edstarke on April 26, 2005 09:47 AM

As a person that once sold EQ items for years, I find that this was the only logical outcome. Simple economics dictates that that virtual items have value. It is only fair that time put into a character should be rewarded when the player is done. Many people that purchased from me were hard working, average guys that had families. They would have LOVED to play EQ enough to max their characters to 70, add a ton of AA, etc. The simple fact was, they DID NOT have the time. They would never have the time short of divorce court. When your best content of the game is reserved for the hard core player, how fair is it for the average guy out there with an hour or two a night?
A good friend of mine played and quit EQ 3 times because of frustration leveling and getting to "the good stuff". Then he buys a lvl 60 warrior and SHAZAM, he plays the account for 3 years. The fact is SOE will gain subscribers because of this change. The people that will benefit most from this will be the average, hard working middle class people that would never be able to enjoy raid content on their own time. This will open the game to more subscribers and more high end players

Comment Posted by: on April 26, 2005 10:11 AM

Quoting Red...
There is quite a number of in-game situations I can think of that would be uglier with ebayers:

Red, the biggest problem with yours and others thinking is that eBay is going to be new in EQ.

It's not. It's been here for years, yet that 'ugliness' you described has not come about. Argue all you want, but it hasn't.

The only difference is that SOE is finally getting smart and attempting to get a cut.

People inclined to buy/sell will still do it.

People not inclined to buy/sell won't.

Might point is and has been: This is happening in EQ right now, SOE brokerage changes nothing. So if you are going to quit in the future, you might as well quit now because it's happening every hour of every day, right now.

That's right, at this very moment, you folks are playing under those same conditions you swear you'll quit over.

If you don't realize that, it must not be that big of an issue.

UOTM - Uproar Of The Moment.

Comment Posted by: Loral on April 26, 2005 10:36 AM

That's a great post, Talaen. In case others missed it, I wrote an article for Caster's Realm called: Disturbing Trends in Massive Online Gaming

http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=8633

I really want to love EQ2. I had a great time from level 1 to 15. I never got into tradeskills in any MMO and EQ2 was no different. I like hunting, I like exploring, I like questing, and I like going on adventures with old and new friends.

Around level 20, I began to have trouble in EQ2. I split my time among a bunch of things so I can't really give EQ2 more than a couple of hours at a time, but I can give enough to group - if there was a reason to.

EQ2 has a few things I think need to be fixed for me to enjoy it more:

- Remove experience debt. It hurts grouping, period. They fixed a problem that I never even heard about in EQ1. Everyone dies, everyone suffers experience debt. Group debt makes me not trust groups. It needs to be removed.

- Add Dragons of Norrath style missions for group adventures. All of the current quests in EQ2 are single-player quests. Almost any time you group with people your quests are out of synch and you end up wasting their time on your quest or your time on theirs. Group quests assigned to the whole group tie the group together with a single goal instead of six individual goals.

I just dinged level 27 the other day in EQ2 and I can't seem to get the motivation to continue. Quests are slow and painful with lousy rewards. I just explored what I can of Nektulos and it isn't that interesting. I'm tired of Thundering Steppes. Progression crawls by. If I have to kill one more beetle, one more glade deer, or one more bear, I'm going to scream.

Probably a lot of this is just me. I don't play that much and when I do, I don't play as I should. I should try to group more. I should dig into more dungeons instead of hunting solo mobs up top. I shouldn't be so worried about my quest journal and should just hunt. I shouldn't expect to hit 30 overnight.

More than anything else, I want to do more grouping in EQ2. Ideally I'd like to group with a purpose (like LDON or DON) but even knowing that I can log in, get a group in a couple of minutes, and earn a quarter of a level and maybe a nice piece of gear in a couple of hours would be a good step.

I really want to love this game more than I do right now. I loved it from level 1 to 15 but around level 20 it shifted from exploration and questing to experience slogging. Probably quite a bit of this is my own fault, but I think there are a couple of things SOE could do to improve the game and make it as much fun from 20+ as it is from 1 to 20.

Comment Posted by: on April 26, 2005 10:53 AM

People keep saying "Well, it already happens, so why not have SoE do it?". This is a fallacy. True, it happens somewhat, but not that often, and it is not looked upon as legitimate. Legitimizing it will likely greatly expand what is clearly a bad thing.

It is kinda like legalizing steroids and corked bats because "people already do it!". That is not the answer.

Comment Posted by: Stylx on April 26, 2005 10:59 AM

Loral,

How is your experience in WoW going? It sounds like pretty much all of your wants for a MMO are found in Worlds of Warcraft.

I'm not sure if you tried PVP or PVE server. But I strongly suggest a PVP server, even if you were never much into the PVP aspect of games.

Just stay out of hillsbrad and you'll be fine.

;-)

Comment Posted by: Talaen on April 26, 2005 11:03 AM

For me, and most other EQ1 folks I know who moved over to EQ2, the biggest challenge has been transitioning back to true random groups. Even with LDONs, we almost always had a friend or two along with us and we were just "filling out" the rest of the group. Now very often I find myself joining or forming a group full of people I don't know and who usually don't know each other and that takes a huge leap of faith on my part - there were just too many instances of horrible groups in EQ1, and those do still happen sometimes in EQ2. That, more than anything, really works against most former EQ1 players that I've met - unless they have strong guilds and friends always around, they quickly run into what you're running into.

Comment Posted by: Stylx on April 26, 2005 11:08 AM

Oh, and for a comment on your essay on Caster's Realm

[quote] you said: If there is a way for players to go from 1 to 50 without grouping, players will follow it [/quote]

I dont particuarly find this true in Worlds of Warcraft.

While you can go from 1-60 without getting a group at all, you will suffer because of it for several reasons.

First, the best loot at all levels is found only where you can group, or by completing quests that require groups.

Second, There are many areas of the game that are not instanced that you pretty much need a group to work in. Either because of the many - multipulls, or because of elites, or because of a combination of both.

Also, some of the most fun events in the game, require groups.

Now, every type of group has a place.

For instance, if you are all about going to get xp, and competing lots of fun quests in a series, the best groups tend to be of 2-3 people. You accomplish the most, the fastest, and in the safest environment (since other pvp'ers tend to avoid groups when possible).

Now, sometimes you DO want to solo. You might only have an hour to play, or you might have a specific goal in mind and not need anyone's help. ect. At these times its best to go solo, or group with a close friend.

At other times, you have a goal that requires a lot of skill to accomplish, and that needs help. You have to spawn a mob that is pretty tough for instance, or you have to dive deep into an instanced dunegon ect~. At these times you want a full balanced well equiped group. You can tend to find these types of groups just about anywhere! and they have the traditional pains and rewards of putting groups together.~ ~ decent xp, decent loot, decent quest objectives, ect.

While its not required at any part of the WoW experience, people still group.. a Lot. for many reasons. If people take the easiest route out, why don't they here? I'd say that it is because the incentives to group in WoW are big enough that people WANT to group, as opposed to being REQUIRED to group.

Comment Posted by: Holdupasec on April 26, 2005 02:59 PM

Quote:
True, it happens somewhat, but not that often

You are naive if you do not think buying/selling chars/items/plat is not big business.

It's happening every day all day. You are not noticing it because it does not have a huge effect on the game, despite what the crusaders would have you believe.

Steroids=Illegal...i.e. it's breaking the law...

Please show me where it is illegal to buy and sell virtual items. It might be against SOE's EULA, however rules that go un-enforced are not really rules are they?

SOE doesn't enforce the rules. They have never challenged Yantis. And now they are setting up their own auction site.

Sounds alot like that saying 'if you can't beat, join em...' doesn't it.

Well you can report SOE to the authorities in your fantasy land where buying and selling virtual property is illegal, because it is not illegal in the real world...despite the drivel that is getting posted here.

Comment Posted by: Stamp on April 26, 2005 03:01 PM

I'm sorry but this is a horrible idea.

I've seen what the farmers do in other games, like FFXI. It was so out of control that the farmers had a monopoly on many drops and place holders 24/7. They would train and MPK people who'd show up to the camps. it kept many items out of the legitimate hands and at inflated prices.

Thats the what you people who play on SoE servers will have to look forward too.

Comment Posted by: Redcloud on April 26, 2005 05:48 PM

If you people think we didn't encounter ebayers, hackers, cheaters in 6 years of EQ, you are in fact much more deluded and naive that you think others are.

OF COURSE we met all these situations. It doesn't mean that we don't KNOW it happens everyday. Who ever said otherwise. I just don't want to see it happen even more than now. As is it can ruin a whole aspect of the game on server with a small minority of it.

That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Thank you but we ain't quite that dense yet.

Comment Posted by: Hugh on April 26, 2005 05:53 PM

"Equal treatment under the law" is a strong legal term.It will probably end up being used a lot in this situation.

Comment Posted by: Stamp on April 27, 2005 12:35 AM

Yes there have been farmers in EQ in the past, I'm not saying that. However the problem was worse in FFXI than in EQ. What I am saying is that now gil farming will now become legitimate, it will an increase in the very types of problems that these farmers cause to the economy.

For example farmers will camp a placeholder for a desired item constantly taking that item out of the reach of people who would like to camp it legitimatly. They will then turn around and take the item and jack the price up on it. (since they now have a monopoly on it)

In WoW now we have farmers as well, alot of them are well know as bad players in bad gear, with a pattern of ninja looting. They manipulate the way the PvP server works to keep there camps safe. When a horde PT moves to the Horde farmers camp a group of the Alliance farmers will show up to PK them out of the camp.

If you legitimize the farmers by giving them a legitimate way to sell there goods, it will only make the practice more common. This will result in the problems that plat buying and selling causes to get even worse.

I guess this was the last straw for me with SoE. I don't mean to /rant but this is crazy, does SoE really believe this is what its community wanted

Comment Posted by: Horzek on April 27, 2005 04:09 PM

So you want to join my group and camp the uber mob that drops the sword of amazing feats. Do you intend if you win this sword to sell it for your personal out of game income? Are you asking me to spend my time to help you make money for yourself? I suppose it would be too much for me to ask you for a share of the profits.

Do you want to join my guild and raid the planes and the other end game areas for the neat equipment that drops there? Are you planning on getting all the neat stuff you can and then sell your character that we all worked hard to obtain for you? If so, are you planning on giving us a share of the money we helped you earn?

When you sign in to play today did you click on the EULA at the start of your session? Clearly if you did you are without honor. Do you have enough honor to tell those you plan to group with that you are farming and exploiting your group and guild mates for your personal gain? I dont suppose you report your extra income to the IRS.

My point is that this is about character and the lack there of. I dont care to group or raid with dishonorable people who are in effect cheating me by their very presence.

I would dearly love to see all farmers and Ebay types flagged in some way that was clearly marked so all could see. Give me at least a warning that I will be exploited if I spend my time working with you.

With the SoE plans to act as a broker on certain servers at least I have the opportunity of avoiding those servers if I see fit. That may be a step in the right direction.

Can I remind some of you that SoE in EQ has indeed taken steps many times to police the game. Many accounts have been banned or placed on probation due to account and item selling. Once again it is about honor. A person whose word means nothing and has no honor things no more about running cheat bots, farming and doing any other type of exploit that may give them some type of financial gain at the expense of others.

The simple fact that I am dealing with a criminal mentality is enough to give me great pause in thinking about possibly purchasing from them. The idea that this person trying to sell me something is already a liar and a cheater and I should be trusting them.

The single biggest time waster for the EQ GM staff has historically been dealing with account exploitation. Caveat Emptor.

Comment Posted by: on April 28, 2005 02:40 PM

"When you sign in to play today did you click on the EULA at the start of your session? Clearly if you did you are without honor"

You mean that non-binding mishmash of words with no legal basis? What is honorable about not selling you the game but letting you use it and being able to take it back at any time with no recompenses for your intial expense.

Please give it a break and as to you IRS comment how many of the boards that take donnations have a business license and report their income to the IRS? So pay your state sales tax on items you buy from the net that don't charge sales tax? You are a hyprocrite so give it a rest.

Comment Posted by: Eski on April 29, 2005 03:26 AM

""When you sign in to play today did you click on the EULA at the start of your session? Clearly if you did you are without honor"

Ok, for one thing the legality of something has nothing to do with honor. Honoring your word, that you won't do the things you the EULA, is what he is talking about. I disagree that the EULA is an honorable agreement but I see the covenant with other players as being the point.

"Please give it a break"

Is telling people what to do ok with you then? Then please, give it a rest, or at least learn some grammar.

" and as to you IRS comment how many of the boards that take donnations have a business license and report their income to the IRS?"

Probably a very small percentage. Who can prove either way? My experience with hackers is that they don't pay tax on money they raise from hacking but perhaps you have evidence to the contrary?

"So pay your state sales tax on items you buy from the net that don't charge sales tax? You are a hyprocrite so give it a rest."

Seriously missing the point here. The tax issue he raised was that businesses run on exploits etc probably don't pay taxes, and i would be surprised that they would, considering they exist in a very grey area of the law at best. However, his major point is that the covenant between players is broken, and you can have people playing for money rather than fun, who are therefore more likely to cheat on you, by using you for financial gain when you invest in them through your time, and then not sharing back either through raiding with your guild or even through a cut of the profits. At least before, you could get the support of SOE. Now, if someone sells off your guild's treasury, SOE will just take a cut.

This is his point, and if you ignore it, but just want to talk about whether the GST or whatever is paid correctly on minor sales, that's fine, post away in some financial newsgroup, but if you want to talk about whether or not somebody who exploits you in everquest is honorable, or whether businesses set to take part in a "$200 000 000" market should pay taxes then please, discuss it, but just throwing around dirt whilst remaining anonymous IS cowardly and dishonest.

Comment Posted by: Redcloud on April 29, 2005 04:32 AM

Because your nickname is much less anonymous?

Give me a break.

Cheaters will nitpick on semantics to avoid looking at the whole picture: that's very profitable to break the rule like it always has been. Since PER DEFINITION it's how you have the least competition / constraints.

You can aknowledge the fact without being completely rotten cynical about it and WISH that companies you PAY for a service don't encourage it. That's all.

The cynical comment doesn't aim the above poster but the general tone of some replies.

Comment Posted by: Talaen on April 29, 2005 07:17 AM

Woody from GU comics did an interview with Brad McQuaid from Sigil about this whole thing - here's some tidbits from Brad:

-------------------------------------

Woody:
It's obvious to most of us, but how exactly does it hurt the game? Just for clarity's sake.

Brad:
In an item-centric and character-development-centric game, a great portion of the game is centered around building up your character and acquiring and earning items. The player gains a very real sense of satisfaction from this. It's just like in real life, when you've saved up and bought something with your own money vs. obtaining it as a gift: human nature dictates that you value the former more than the latter.

When, in -game, players encounter other players who've bought these items or characters using out-of-game resources, the immersive 'closed off' feeling of the world is damaged. People play these games to escape the real world, just as when you read a good book or watch a good movie, you want to forget your current circumstances and be drawn in. When you encounter someone who didn't earn the item in-game, it takes away from this immersiveness and you end up thinking to yourself, sheesh, why the heck did I just go through that long, epic quest when this other guy just bought the same item off of eBay or some such.

I very much believe that's not what the majority of MMOG players want to have happen, and when it occurs, it hurts them and their sense of accomplishment. And that sense of accomplishment is a retention mechanism -- that and relationships, etc. is what keeps players playing these games for months and years. If you start damaging the value of accomplishment in a traditional MMOG you start damaging the players' experiences, and then start damaging player retention, which again is bad for both the player and the game's long term health.

Also, massive farming of items, and even groups who are paid to just go into a game and farm, abnormally flood the in-game economy with items, which accelerates MUDflation, which also hurts the long term health of the game, forcing in-game prices down and messing with the principle of supply and demand.

---------------------------------------

Woody:
So what is it, you think, that has really allowed the virtual merchants to get such a strangle hold on the games and their respective communities? It can't just be the need to get ahead right? Do you think "class"ism and judging a person based on their gear has caused some of this?

Brad:
I guess that's the real catch-22. The fundamental advancement mechanism in these games, unlike say an FPS, RTS, etc., is time invested. You advance primarily by the time you invest into playing the game (although there are certainly other factors -- who your friends are, how well you socialize and maintain relationships, your general knowledge of the world, gameplay strategy, etc.). And as long other games in the genre really do seem to have created a product that promotes the selection of "group mates" based entirely on the items they carry.

As that is true, I would imagine the temptation to compensation for that in-game time by using out-of-game money will be present. This is why it's going to be a constant battle and why we take it so seriously -- it's because this is what makes our game tick. You can't use your credit card to suddenly purchase more real-life skill in a twitch game like Half Life, but you can purchase in-game time with out-of-game money (the old 'time is money' adage). And as long as there is a desire for MMOGs with this time based advancement mechanism from both the players who want to escape into these virtual worlds, and companies like Sigil who love making these games, it will be an issue. That said, just because cheating is possible in a game doesn't mean you abandon the game or fundamentally alter what makes the game tick -- sometimes you just fight the good fight and look for new and better ways to combat that cheating.

Judging a person by the gear and their general accomplishments is absolutely what causes this, just like in real life. We see people who are successful and we want to be like them. It's really what makes a lot of the economy work in our culture and in many cultures. You want to be beautiful like that model, or drive a sports car like that movie star, or ride a motocross bike like that racer, etc. And then companies appear and offer you ways to help you achieve what you have determined you want out of life -- ways to achieve those goals.

I think this is fundamental not just to traditional MMOGs, but to human nature itself.

--------------------------------------------

The whole interview is posted on GU Comics in the news section.

Comment Posted by: Eski on April 29, 2005 09:21 AM

My nickname is far less anonymous than nothing at all, yes. Not to mention I've used that nick since the release of kunark and i provided my email address.

I have not quite posted my name in 5 mile high fiery letters, but it is a least a bit more obvious that the eski posting here is the same eski who played in eq1 and eq2, and who posted in assorted newsgroups.

Comment Posted by: Stylx on April 29, 2005 10:54 AM

I concur

Comment Posted by: Horzek on May 1, 2005 05:30 PM

I regards to the post just previous to mine which I will not dignify by quoting.

I view Honor as something I carry on my shoulder much like I carry a name tag on my shirt. EQ or what ever other game I may play and I emphasize GAME, is more than a game. I carry my personal honor with me when I go there. I do not lie, cheat nor attempt to steal nor do I deliberately train of cause grief to other players. This is because personal honor carries over to respect to other players.

The very idea that some one has absolutely no clue what honor is concerns me greatly. Please go play another game if you can. Leave mine alone. Please take your potty mouth and sewer brain along as well. They are not welcome in my world.

Note: the comment this refers to was removed. - Loral

Comment Posted by: Horzek on May 2, 2005 08:33 PM

Further, in my world Commitment is also paramount. Without Commitment there would be no point in playing these multi-player games and we would all sit down instead to an evening of Doom. This Commitment is what brings same-minded individuals together in the game to accomplish what we could not achieve alone.

Similarly, I am Committed to child porn. Much of the enjoyment I've experienced in game over the years has resulted from /tell'ing pre-teen boys and meeting them in person for a round of 'Smell my Finger'. Should the player population ever age beyond the teens it is unlikely that I would continue the GAME.

Adults? They are not welcome in my world.

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