The Chipped Tooth of the Dragon
by Loral on March 10, 2005
February of 2005, Sony Online Entertainment released the best of the eight existing Everquest expansions, Dragons of Norrath. This expansion combined elements from the previous four expansions and
added a few new elements to create an expansion far greater than a simple collection of new zones. Features like the guild hall, corpse summoner, mission system, and loot vendor, show Everquest growing into a mature and expanding game far different than we've seen in the last five years.
Not everything in this expansion shines so brightly, however. Like everything in life, this expansion has room for improvement. In this article I discuss the details of five larger problems with Dragons of Norrath and offer areas for improvement.
Dragons? What Dragons?
They're on the cover. We all heard about Tirranum's roam of the wastes of Lavastorm for a couple of days. A few of us even snapped a few pictures of him with our strange gnomish picture-capture devices.
So where are they now? Well, if you're lucky enough to be in a Time Tier 5 level guild, you have a chance to cut down Tirranum deep in his lair. Any less power and you may have a chance to see the great lava dragon for a few seconds before he turns you into a pile of ash and a column of smoke. And Tirranum is the weakest of these new dragons.
Dragons should be raid-level mobs. Only a stupid pompous fanboi would ask for newbie-friendly dragons that six well-armed level 24 hunters could best. Yet it would be nice to at least SEE one of these mystical beasts from time to time. Let it lurk deep in a cave we might wander into during our travels. Let them come out from the depths of their lair for a quick snack of barbarian and a chai halfling latte.
As it stands, only a few very powerful hunters will see the Dragons in Dragons of Norrath.
Everquest: Goblins of Norrath?
What do we get instead of great red wyrms roaming the lava-crusted wastelands? Goblins. Lots and lots of goblins. Yes, they are the most well animated goblins I can recall seeing outside of a Peter Jackson film. Their slick skin reflects in the setting sun of Sol. They listen to the approaching footsteps of adventurers. They gnash their little razorsharp teeth in anticipation. And even if you are a 70th level adventurer with 10,000 hitpoints and a sword from the God of War, they can still open a can of old fashioned goblin whuparse.
What do they feed these things? How can a goblin with fingernails shorter than my short-hair cat hit me for 1200 points of damage? How can a group of adventurers that challenge the darkest demons of Torment get torn apart by scampering little hairless gnomes?
Now granted, the EQ team came up with the best spider model I can recall seeing and if it had a forty foot leg-span I am sure I would run in horror, but as is, the spiders are about the same size as the ones I killed outside of Felwithe at level 1. Even the drakes, as wonderful as they look, remind me of the drakes I killed within the first five levels of my hunts.
A level 50 expansion should have level 50 beasts. This doesn't mean taking a sewer rat and giving it a 1400 flurry. This means digging out the old D&D monster manual and finding the baddest beasts that a pizza-eating DM ever threw against his obnoxious friends. Hydras, Werewolf Lords, Beholders, Mind Flayers, Ogre Mages, Umbur Hulks, Wraths, Liches, Demon Knights; those are beasts that remind you that you're level 50.
For seventy levels I hunted in Norrath's great lands. I have traveled to countless worlds and fought the strongest avatars of the unholy Gods of the lower planes. I wear armor and carry magical items that could fund kingdoms if sold. I killed my first dragon when I was level 46; twenty four levels ago. Last night, I was killed by an 80 pound goblin wearing a loincloth.
Please, no more rats, no more bats, no more spiders.
Mission Balance
Missions are the best feature of Dragons of Norrath. Missions offer real storylines, real plots, real goals, excellent rewards, and all within a reasonable time-frame. They tie together the instanced dungeons and reward system of Lost Dungeons of Norrath, the expeditions of Gates of Discord, and the task system of Omens of War.
Missions are a feature that lets EQ outshine the competition. Everquest 2 doesn't have them. Warcraft doesn't have them. Only Everquest offers you group-quests that reward all members of a party equally in an instanced and uncompeted lair.
Offering such a wide variety in missions makes mission balance a difficult achievement. Though each mission can offer a different reward than the others, some, like the Gimblax mission, might become so easy to defeat that everyone who ever gets five people together will want to do that mission and ONLY that mission.
Changing the missions around one-by-one creates frustration in players and having only a single reward type for the missions leads to min-maxing: Players will only do the easiest and most consistently rewarding mission to eventually acquire the best gear.
Offering rewards for those who choose variety rather than continued hunts in the same mission could get people to spread out and try more. The current mission progression tracks help this to an extent but most of the progression is based on faction, tasks, and a few required single missions to progress.
No Tiered Equipment Progression
One of the reasons SOE didn't embrace the loot system of Lost Dungeons after its release was due to the ease at which people acquired the top gear. Even though hard adventures rewarded more points, powerful groups could squeeze three normal adventures into the same time as a hard. The easiest content, when hunted enough times, allowed a player to reap the greatest rewards of the system.
Dragons isn't much different. The crystals rewarded on the easiest missions allow players to buy the best gear available on the adventure merchants. This limits the power of the gear available on mission vendors. Though the loot is far superior to Lost Dungeons and helps close the gap between the equipment available to single-group hunters and that of raiders, it still is limited by this design problem.
A tiered loot system helps solve this problem. Certain new sets of higher-powered loot could become available after achieving certain goals that prove the power of the player is appropriate for the reward. Perhaps achieving each of the Lavaspinner, Stillmoon Temple, and Ascent missions opens up a new tier of loot. Once someone completes all of the Thundercrest Isle and Nest missions, they open up a third tier of possible loot. This system ensures that a player did not just complete the easiest adventures but instead met the required trial to receive more powerful equipment.
No Love for the Little Guy
Dragons of Norrath has a lot of exciting new content as long as you're above level 50. Since the release of Lost Dungeons of Norrath two years ago players below level 45 received very little new content. Yes, the task system in Omens of War offered quite a lot of new content but limitations prevented this system from radically changing the game as much as it could have.
Mission systems are a perfect way to increase the use of old-world zones. Lower level tasks, quests, and missions can lead a brand new player through the basics of the game and show them much of what they need to know in order to grow. Instead, brand new players get to see five year old stories and struggle through the same problems SOE fixed for players above 50.
New missions, mission vendors, and group tasks in old-world dungeons could breathe new life to the old and often underused zones we all so fondly remember.
Dragons of Norrath shows us how far Everquest has come. Long past are the days of frustration and drab colorless hunts. Dragons opens up a new system for dynamic and involving storylines for groups of six players or raids between 18 and 54 players. Dragons capitalizes on the best features of past expansions and shows us a path to new and greater adventures. Though the above examples show the short-comings of this new expansion, I have high hopes that we will see these problems fixed in future releases.
Loral Ciriclight
10 March 2005
loral@loralciriclight.com
Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on March 10, 2005 09:06 AM
Maybe a few gigant Wyrms would had made things a little more interesting too. Nothing hard to do, just increase the size parameter and there, big wyrms.
Same with the spiders, they should be bigger than ogres.
As for goblins, how about at least give them epic like weapons?
But yea, i'd love to see more than just those creatures. I seen some big statues in some screenshots, how about those for content instead of rarities?
Also, why not allow us to see all those new common monster models in the old zones? God knows that the old world needs some revamping, replacing all goblins, wyrms and spiders with these new models would be extremely welcome. (replace orcs and bears with he ones of LDON while you are at it).
Note i have not played in quiet a while, many many months, but i still wish the best for this game and still wait for somethng that i can truly say "hey, THAT i would go back for!"
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on March 10, 2005 10:22 AM
I was thinking of about the same thing concerning dragons:
Why isn't there a couple of scripts per zone for their local tailed resident (dragons..) that actually make sense in them being patrolling, giving orders to their golem or gobelins, whatnot?
Something along the lines of the script in Txevu for instance.
That form of dragon wouldn't be killable but would breath some life into the zone. Right now, the DoN zones look ok, but empty. No life no depth in it. Not much imagination involved. Nor lore. It doesn't help to find it immersive while it was to know that naga and vox were pariah and mates. DoN needs more lore depth I think.
"Only a stupid pompous fanboi would ask for newbie-friendly dragons that six well-armed level 24 hunters could best." Can't stop chuckling P))
Did I hit a nerve? p
Translation: I can't whine about non raiders not having dragons but I do it anyway covering it as a self bashing ploy P) or one would notice that EQ without raid / guilds doesn't have a purpose. OMG that would be incoherant and I would be nailed for that. (insert flame retardant here).
Sorry coun't resist P)
Comment Posted by: Swampfunk on March 10, 2005 10:53 AM
Soo... here we have it again... folks buying an expansion that is kinda mislabeled... sorta.
The thing that bothers me the most is the very limited item population of the vendors. You would think they would have items up into the 1000 point range... but they don't it caps at 340.
And being the apex of top end, only a handful of those items have any real value to a high end raider... soo what are they going to do? Sell crystals OR twink their alts. Folks are pulling down 600-800 crystals a day.... thats alot in the current system.
I think the story line is going to be too short too.. I think we have a few folks that must be nearing the completion of DoN story line... how longs this expansion been out?
I hope the devs have some big ace up their sleeve. really I do. cause all thats left after this expansion is figuring out how to beat "satan" Mata Muram.
I sound negative... and thats not my normal style, but the devs really better have something planned in the background to keep people busy.
Comment Posted by: wombat on March 10, 2005 11:07 AM
There are newbie players for under 50 content?
Comment Posted by: Quesci on March 10, 2005 12:28 PM
"What do they feed these things? How can a goblin with fingernails shorter than my short-hair cat hit me for 1200 points of damage? How can a group of adventurers that challenge the darkest demons of Torment get torn apart by scampering little hairless gnomes?"
This is one of my biggest roleplay beefs with expansions like this. A single goblin from DoN could clear out Rivervale -- either to help or destroy their brothers in Runnyeye. A raiding party from the new Mistmoore could destroy both Faydarks without blinking.
I'm supposed to believe that there are goblins that hit for 1200, rampage, flurry, and have 100,000 hit points... all while their kin in SolA are being killed by level 20 adventurers?
Comment Posted by: Teremar on March 10, 2005 12:31 PM
"Warcraft doesn't have them. Only Everquest offers you group-quests that reward all members of a party equally in an instanced and uncompeted lair."
Umm...let's see...World of Warcraft has:
"group-quests"? Check.
"in an instanced and uncompeted lair"? Check.
"reward all members of a party equally"? Well, when you finish a quest there are usually only 2-3 items to choose from for your reward, and it is true that sometimes none of them are terribly appealing to a particular class. But the reward items for instance quests usually sell quite well to vendors (vendors buy, but do not resell, no drop items in WoW), so you always end up with something of significant value. I've never seen anyone complain that an instance quest isn't good for their class, but I suppose you could.
So I'd have to say that your statement is misleading, Loral, if not just plain innaccurate. I suspect SOE set out to imitate WoW's quests--which doesn't bother me a bit, because they're great fun and EQ players deserve fun content.
Apologies to those who really couldn't care less what WoW does or doesn't have. But Loral brought it up, not me.
Comment Posted by: Glamdrigg on March 10, 2005 01:00 PM
I was playing my alt up the other day: 54 Pally in the plane of disease and it struck me how here I was at 54 killing rats again....sigh
It is very true.... there is a very real discrepancy in mobs. This has always been a problem for our game.
Comment Posted by: Glamdrigg on March 10, 2005 01:05 PM
Hey maybe these new mobs ought to march on the old city zones... I think the trolls would appreciate seeing some other towns get wiped just like our home city.
LOL
Comment Posted by: Loral on March 10, 2005 02:31 PM
"Note i have not played in quiet a while, many many months, but i still wish the best for this game and still wait for somethng that i can truly say "hey, THAT i would go back for!""
Though this is a critical article, I think there is a lot of content in DoN that is worth at least trying out. Much depends on why you left, but this is a great expansion even with the flaws mentioned in the article.
""Only a stupid pompous fanboi would ask for newbie-friendly dragons that six well-armed level 24 hunters could best." Can't stop chuckling P))
Did I hit a nerve? p
Translation: I can't whine about non raiders not having dragons but I do it anyway covering it as a self bashing ploy P) or one would notice that EQ without raid / guilds doesn't have a purpose. OMG that would be incoherant and I would be nailed for that. (insert flame retardant here)."
No, it would be dumb to recommend that any group of six people can kill a large dragon (maybe a small dragon would be ok, though). However, there are a lot of ways the dragons can be used without requiring them to be killable by a group. Stealing dragon loot Bilbo-Baggins-style, sneaking past a dragon to get from point A to point B, dragon riddle games that might end in horrible scorched deaths. The dragons can be used as failure states. If you agro them, you die, but there are ways to escape or accomplish a mission without angering them. Spy missions, perhaps.
"And being the apex of top end, only a handful of those items have any real value to a high end raider"
That gear isn't high-end raid gear. If you got your gear in Qvic, Txevu, MPG, Riftseekers, or Anguish, you won't find much useful from the vendors but that is the path you chose. You'll find good gear continuing the same path of raiding. I've seen some of the gear from the higher-end dragons and its pretty good.
But yes, a tiered loot system would let SOE put out higher-end gear without worrying about players bottomfeeding for crystals.
"So I'd have to say that your statement is misleading, Loral, if not just plain innaccurate. I suspect SOE set out to imitate WoW's quests--which doesn't bother me a bit, because they're great fun and EQ players deserve fun content."
I only played Warcraft for a litlte while so I don't have much data. It was an inaccurate statement without evidence and I probably shouldn't have written it in. Consider this a retraction.
I do think it is healthier for a game to steal good ideas than to continually force originality. If it works, steal it. EQ2 stole the mentor system from City of Heroes and it might be the most useful addition since EQ2s release. Steal steal steal.
"It is very true.... there is a very real discrepancy in mobs. This has always been a problem for our game."
The Muramites were pretty sinister and dangerous looking mobs but a lot of players said they were too "alien" so SOE moved away from them. I think this is a real shame, I loved the Muramites but I felt they were disconnected from EQ's main storyline. I never had a problem getting killed by a Kyv or an Ukun or a Aneuk. They look like things that could tear out your soul with a swipe of razor-sharp claws.
Maybe that's the problem; the same problem after leaving PoP for LDON or Ykesha. After being cut in half by giant two-headed axe wielding beasts in Muramite Provinggrounds, how anti-climactic is it to be killed by a goblin?
Here's an interesting one, though. The orcs in Rujarkian looked like they would tear you to shreds. I never minded being killed by them. They were big beefy guys with huge bone-handled axes. Same with the vampires or werewolves or demons in the other LDONs. Even the Frogloks looked pretty sinister.
I think SOE's designers and artists need to look at each new model they begin building and ask "would I be embarassed to be killed by this if I'm level 70?" Do I want to FIGHT this? The Kirins look very cool but I never really think of them when I think of horrible dangerous mobs.
Comment Posted by: Horzek on March 10, 2005 03:52 PM
Not long after that goblin killed Loral I found myself funning in circles while hoping someone could take aggro from me but it was to no avail and I too died to a goblin last night. I do have to admit it was a better looking goblin than many I have seen but it was still a goblin.
This got me thinking about our levels in EQ. I would like to guesstimate a little bit here about actual levels of players in this game.
When I was killing wurms in Skyfire a few years ago I knew the hit points on each type of creature I picked on and what kind of mana pool it would take for me to take them down. I remember the mobs in the zone at that time had at a minimum around 10k hps and the top end creatures had up to 20k with the exception of the guardian wurms. In those days I was in the mid to high 50's and was using the druid root rot methods.
Let me compare in this way. At level 68 with conviction and a few other buffs I find my hit points running around 6100 give or take a few. If I were to compare myself then to the EQ mobs I would have to say that my equivalent level is roughly 45. By the same line of thinking a very well equipped warrior could be considered to have a mob equivalent level in the low 50s. I know, it does sound a bit nuts but its fun to consider.
I did break down and pick up DoN after all my grief with the dissappointments of GoD and OOW and I find that the Guild hall is pretty neat. I tried my first DoN raid last night and that was where mister goblin_01 beat me into a pulp. The raid itself was ok but I was very dissappointed in the graphics of the zone. It all looks so flat and plain now. After WoW Eq will just never be in the same league graphics wise. Never the less, there are places for both games in my life now and I plan on further exploration of the DoN world. It did suck to have to pay 197 pp for a corpse summon because some fool thinks halfings have poor charisma. We are charming as can be and cute too.
I would definately go for a few new mobs in these old world zones. Maybe a few extra arms on the goblins or something would help. I remember the old criticism from the Ultima Online days was that folks didnt want to spend their time baking bread.. but now we are spending our time killing rats and snakes and goblins over and over..
Ah well, one could say the goblins and orcs are getting tired of killing halfings and gnomes over and over and over.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on March 11, 2005 04:42 AM
I prefer by far more gobelins, drakes and golems than more silly looking unpronouceable aliens in a massive RPG. Aliens just don't belong there.
Now they could add a lot more other races pulled from the existing D&D or mix and match mythical creatures like minothaurs, griffins.
And no more goats please.
Comment Posted by: Ogulbuk on March 11, 2005 08:17 AM
Agree with Redcloud, but honestly, there are gigants, cylcops, griphons, spyinxes and many other monsters that ALREADY are in EverQuest and would make you feel more epic.
I do have to acept, so far in EQ lore goblins have been the main dragon minnions. Still, they do could have used goblins to implement more horde fighting mechanics, though...
Maybe low hitting but mez resistant ones. Practicaly, making the challenge not in fighting a single goblin, but a big bunch of them. At level 70 i may not mind being overwelmed by 8 very very tough goblins, but being killed by one is sort of... sad.
It is posible to just balance how much xp these give, and how fast they move to avoid more swarm kiting (wish I honestly dont like the fact that is posible).
Slome mutated bulky looking goblins would be cool to see around too.
You can then even add small area attack abilities to the melee classes that cost energy and are designed precicely to fight these encounters. Altough balance may be poked there, truth is i dobut anyone will want to do area attacks against old style enemies that require MEZ to stick on all but one enemy if you want to live.
Comment Posted by: Ryland on March 11, 2005 09:32 PM
Teremar what servers are you playing on in Wow?
Comment Posted by: valbarr on March 13, 2005 02:13 AM
im liking, ogulbuks idea, think of the new powers, warriors could have a sort of mini knockback like sauron, when challenged by these toughish but multi attacking mobs, it would look sweet. other abilities that only work in DON, basically you would be fighting 1 mob, but it would have lots of goblin mobs for example so it looks like your fighting a small platoon. i personally could deal with that. but yeah, sony needs to get a grip, when a goblin can hit as hard as or even more than nagafen for example or any of the first brood. why are there rats in this game that could kill every single Lion on norrath.
Comment Posted by: Glamdrigg on March 13, 2005 10:16 AM
I guess the biggest issue for many of us is that at this point in our character's lives, after all the dangers they have faced and monsters they have killed, it is a little depressing to be back on pest control...
I liked the idea of fighting a group of goblins etc. as an alternative to fighting one goblin that can wipe a lvl 70 group. This would balance mob lvl with the rest of our character arc, but I'm not sure how it would play out in practice.
Alot of people wouldn't want to fight several mobs to get the experience of killing one mob.
Say a mob boss directing his goblin underlings to attack you: they could con light blue or green and then the real experience would come from killing the boss behind the smaller mobs. Or the mob boss could summon his underlings from his life force and so by killing the underlings one at a time you would be taking his life from him until you stood toe to toe with him.
Not sure if that was the idea you had or not, but I think it has potential.
Comment Posted by: valbarr on March 13, 2005 03:45 PM
well basically say you have a mob that hits for 1200 and has 50k hitpoints,
instead you would have 10 mobs that each hit for 120 and have 5k hitpoints each, so they would do the same amount of dmg, and take the same amount of dmg to kill, but it would look better to be attacked by 10 mobs than by one tiny goblin.
Comment Posted by: valbarr on March 13, 2005 03:48 PM
of course it would be better if they instead made mobs that are lvl 70 have models that reflect this, instead of being lazy and basically rehashing old content. if we get a new expansion we want it to be NEW not old stuff slightly changed. i will repeat, if you stuck every single lion in west keranas against one rat from plane of justice, the rat would win, slaughtering all the lions, where on earth or norrath is the sense in that.
Comment Posted by: Sallidar on March 13, 2005 09:31 PM
"But yes, a tiered loot system would let SOE put out higher-end gear without worrying about players bottomfeeding for crystals." - Loral
What about the status system in use for guilds in EQ2? Could this be adopted to give the higher level raiding guilds access to more loot, and higher tier loot while doing progressive content? As long as we are talking about stealing ideas, why not from EQ's younger brother as well.
"Alot of people wouldn't want to fight several mobs to get the experience of killing one mob.
Say a mob boss directing his goblin underlings to attack you: they could con light blue or green and then the real experience would come from killing the boss behind the smaller mobs. Or the mob boss could summon his underlings from his life force and so by killing the underlings one at a time you would be taking his life from him until you stood toe to toe with him." - Glamdrigg
The biggest hurdle that designers face with creating large group encounters is Pacify/Lull lines. If you make all of the critters in a group linked, ala EQ2, then that should overcome that hurdle. Not sure if it can be accomplished with EQ's current engine however.
Comment Posted by: Loral on March 13, 2005 10:22 PM
"What about the status system in use for guilds in EQ2? Could this be adopted to give the higher level raiding guilds access to more loot, and higher tier loot while doing progressive content? As long as we are talking about stealing ideas, why not from EQ's younger brother as well."
Gear shouldn't be dependent upon the guild you're in. If people want to stay in their lower or mid-level family guild, they shouldn't have gear restricted even if they are skilled and dedicated players. This is one of the problems with the current system.
I'm a level 70 450 AA cleric with nearly 8000 hps and mana. Right now I have no chance at Qvic armor. However, if I accept one of the invitations I receive to join a raiding guild, I can suddenly become fully geared in Qvic gear in two weeks with little extra effort on my part.
High end gear still comes almost entirely from big raids. Single group gear is a lot better than it was, but I could get more gear with less work if I was willing to leave my friends. I am not.
Comment Posted by: FeliasGrimm/SFG on March 14, 2005 01:53 AM
Play EQ2, just join the dark side. You know you want to.
Seriously tho - One of the things I like about eq2 is similar to the LDoN thing - your guild can gain status either by doing big stuff or lots of little stuff (hard raids v. easy missions, essentially).
I'm a very casual player... EQ2 is nice for that, I can make progress an hour here or an hour there - reminds me of LDoN in its heyday.
Status points manage to accomplish a lot of the same things as LDoN points or crystals - and you can get status points for your guild or you personally.
And I haven't gotten my butt handed to me by rats or snakes or spiders in quite some time.
SFG
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on March 14, 2005 06:30 AM
"Gear shouldn't be dependent upon the guild you're in."
Wrong. It has to be or there would be no progression in game. No gear accretion at a guild level, no longevity, no revenue. Dead game.
"If people want to stay in their lower or mid-level family guild, they shouldn't have gear restricted even if they are skilled and dedicated players."
Skilled and dedicated players outgrow their family guilds. That's a fact of life. They move on. You didn't. You are the problem, not the system.
Comment Posted by: Loral on March 14, 2005 08:35 AM
Guild alliances allow smaller family or theme guilds to gather and attempt higher-end raid content. Little prevents guild alliances from currently attempting to tackle larger content. Flags hurt these alliances a lot since flags required attendance at a series of raids in order to keep up. Since Omens, however, most raid content, except for one or two locked encounters, remains open.
SOE already understands the value in supporting guild alliances. They did not go for the easy backflagging method of flagging guilds, instead they came up with a system that rewards individuals directly.
Nothing prevents guild alliances from attempting any of the events or raids in Omens, the MPG trials, the Riftseeker raids, or most of the raids in Dragons. The Dragons raids, for example, can be started up by any of the winners of the previous raid. Since I have access to the Tirranum raid, I can call a raid together in Knowledge if I chose to. It is likely we would not succeed =)
I don't want to see a system that rewards guilds directly because it throws aside the concept of guild alliances.
Comment Posted by: Bob on March 14, 2005 09:37 AM
I think you have been gone from Kunark too long to be calling DoN "best of the eight existing Everquest expansions"
WHile its the best of LoY, OoW, GoD, PoP, etc. it still pales in size, scope, and completeness that Kunark & Velious had.
It sounds like you have gotten too used to the fast food expansions and have forgotten what a real meal tastes like.
DoN is nice, but its totally not worthy of the 'greatest' title. To use that term makes this sound like a SOE press release, not a review or even an editorial.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on March 14, 2005 10:58 AM
(Ryland--there's a thread on the Seekers boards with a lot of people's WoW contact info. I'll make sure mine is still accurate.
Okay, back to your regularly scheduled Mobhunter...)
I've long been in favor of many vs. many battles. But it's not going to be easy to add them at this point. Okay, so we link the mobs such that pacify doesn't work. What about mez? Make everything immune? Or make "crowd control" a required capability in a group just like "tanking," "DPS" and "healing"?
And if we go that way, should the "crowd control" capability be distributed like healing (clerics by far the best, with druids a distant second and shaman an even more distant third), like tanking (warrior best with the knights not too far behind), or like DPS (so many different classes some of them struggle to find groups)?
Personally I'd love to see SOE give some crowd control abilities to some of the DPS classes that need help and then create more content that requires it. They can always find an excuse--"Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" included a monk mez, for example. On the other hand, more constraints on party composition is not something EQ needs right now.
As for mob types, I empathize with those who say "I'm level 70! I should be fighting the ultimate coolest mobs!" But then what does SOE put in the next expansion? Take the PoP-LDoN transion: one moment you're fighting the gods themselves, the next moment you're killing orcs for Mordin Rasp. Talk about let-downs. The obvious solution is to create new and original mobs to fight once you've hit the top of the Monster Manual, but then they get beat on for introducing "aliens" to a fantasy game. It's a tough dilemma.
If I were SOE I'd go back to creating original mobs, but be much more careful to give them a high fantasy feel. No Hellraiser, no Close Encounters, and above all no WWF.
Comment Posted by: Stylx on March 14, 2005 12:33 PM
WWF? You must mean the World Wildlife Foundation.
Comment Posted by: Loral on March 14, 2005 02:20 PM
"I think you have been gone from Kunark too long to be calling DoN "best of the eight existing Everquest expansions"
I liked Kunark a lot, but what features did it offer besides a lot of zones? Loot was rare drops on rare mobs, often camped by the same people and sold at the EC tunnel for huge prices. Dungeons were train-magnets, most of them were very crowded. There was no instancing so people stomped all over one another. The expansion itself offered no new non-zone features or interface enhancements.
Dragons of Norrath has a far superior loot system that rewards individuals based on the direct effort the put in. Group members are equally rewarded for their effort. Groups don't camp spawns, they move through an adventure and complete a story. The expansion has both instanced content for single groups and open zones for larger experience hunts. The graphics are better, but I do sort of miss the Kunark goblin. At least they had armor =) The raid content in Dragons cannot be monopolized by a single guild like it was in Kunark. Dragons included new features such as the instanced guild halls, the corpse summoning alter, the bandoleer, and the potion belt.
Rating the expansions against one other serves little purpose, but it does give you a better idea of my own perspective. Here they are from best to worst along with my reasons:
1. Dragons of Norrath (loot system, missions, features)
2. Lost Dungeons of Norrath (loot system, adventures, dungeon environments)
3. Omens of War (open content, good single-group loot, neat atmosphere)
4. Shadows of Luclin (favorite badguy: Shissar, good features, beautiful zones, good loot, lots of hunting grounds, AAs)
5. Ruins of Kunark (lots of zones, cool mobs, good dungeon design (but didn't scale real well and is now abandoned), great lore)
6. Scars of Velious (lots of zones, lots of dragons, split players up among three factions and the ubers ended up fighting all three, good loot, good graphics, best raid event ever: The Ringwar)
7. Legacy of Ykesha (excellent mobs, great atmosphere, great hunting below 50, some abandoned raid encounters, not much for 50+ folks, good features: dyes and shared banks)
8. Gates of Discord (locked zones, nothing below 50, very little below 60, over half the expansion for raiders only, no real good features, no good loot system considering LDON came out right before it)
9. Planes of Power (Most damaging expansion released. Many players gained nothing but Plane of Knowledge and four hunting zones. This was the first expansion to spell out that high-end players should be high-end raiders. Progressivly locked zones are the devil. Fighting and killing Gods was a big mistake. It left no room for realistic lore progression. Once the first set of flags became unlocked and the experience gap was fixed, the expansion got a lot better but for its first six months, it was a nightmare (pun intended).)
Lots of zones does not equal quality content. I loved Kunark and my days spent there were days well spent, but Dragons is a better expansion. If you were to buy them both at the store for your $30, there wouldn't be any doubt that while Kunark is larger, Dragons has more useful features.
Comment Posted by: Wombat on March 15, 2005 02:18 AM
And I haven't gotten my butt handed to me by rats or snakes or spiders in quite some time.- SFG
Heh come to EQ2 and be stomped on by Bambi's! Tougher zones = Tougher Bambi's. Oh Deer me! :p
Wombat
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on March 15, 2005 04:35 AM
"I liked Kunark a lot, but what features did it offer besides a lot of zones? Loot was rare drops on rare mobs, often camped by the same people and sold at the EC tunnel for huge prices. Dungeons were train-magnets, most of them were very crowded. There was no instancing so people stomped all over one another. The expansion itself offered no new non-zone features or interface enhancements."
Kunark:
Great dungeon design, that made sense, challenging, creative, fun, immersive, rewarding, etc, etc. In short great places to spend gobbles of time.
Good storyline, immersive
Good use of factions
Good RvR. Worthwhile class armor obtaineable in group + bp/legs from raid target.
Kunark dragons brought life to zones while being worthwhile opponents.
SOME drops were rare but random drops in Seb made people VERY happy. You didn't have to chase the rare drop of a rare mob. At most it was a rare drop of a semi common mob. And I was on high population server too. It was VERY doable and sustainable environment. If seb was full you could go to chardok or do whatever else you please.
Epic 1s. Great fun. Some were insanely long and tedious at first but it went better later.
[Removed the personal attack - Loral] Ignoring all the exploring, experimenting, dungeon crawling, Trakanon fights, etc that were prime example of great fun. Kunark had an epic dimension. It had its problems but it was a very good expansion. People could SOLO more than today.
Yes it was crowded but the world was huge, people could go do something else somewhere else meanwhile. They could solo to 60 if they wanted to and miss all the fun. And it was FIVE years ago. It needs to be compared to what existed five years ago... Right on, nothing came close.
"Dragons of Norrath has a far superior loot system that rewards individuals based on the direct effort the put in. Group members are equally rewarded for their effort. Groups don't camp spawns, they move through an adventure and complete a story. The expansion has both instanced content for single groups and open zones for larger experience hunts. The graphics are better, but I do sort of miss the Kunark goblin. At least they had armor =) The raid content in Dragons cannot be monopolized by a single guild like it was in Kunark. Dragons included new features such as the instanced guild halls, the corpse summoning alter, the bandoleer, and the potion belt."
DoN reward is bean counting. YAY I got my paycheck from the merchant. WOW that's epic. Prime example of compulsive buying behavior to feed some brain chemistry. Epic dimension? Nil. Frills? Nil. Immersion. Not much. Challenge? Nil. Longevity? Not much. Brain activity? Flat lined. GoGo gerbil mode.
In every way, it's inferior as game VALUE. Maybe it feeds some greed zone in the brain for a minority, but that's pretty much it.
We don't play in a replica of a stalinist collectivist era where there is ONE way to think, no difference in reward and everybody has to be rewarded AT ONCE in exactly the same way whatever the effort. Good job at ruining a fantasy world. FRIENDS and guildmates can help each other. Today we go help x, tomorrow we help y, after-tomorrow we help z. It's based on TRUST, social interraction, social inter-dependency. BRAINS too, can't hurt from time to time. If you are a social failure then indeed you will turn into a collectivist fanboy. But that really doesn't have to pollute a game, does it? (I'm in Loral's mode, in case you wonder).
Instance group, better graphics, guild hall, bandolier, potion belt, all those things are nice. Dungeons look ok, not as good as seb but ok. There is no competition for content. I can't decide if it is a good or bad thing. DoN has a much less immersive story than Kunark. Mobs are underpowered at many levels. Which per se might not be a bad thing considering the current population. All in all, DoN is good but as innovative, immersive and challenging as Kunark. Which in turn can dictate the amount of fun one can have.
"Rating the expansions against one other serves little purpose, but it does give you a better idea of my own perspective. Here they are from best to worst along with my reasons:
1. Dragons of Norrath (loot system, missions, features)"
Behind Kunark and Velious by a long shot by creating a community and immersion. Kunark and Velious are the foundation of the phenomenom EQ became. DoN at best a sequel.
"2. Lost Dungeons of Norrath (loot system, adventures, dungeon environments)"
Junk. Bean counters and sim players must be happy I guess. Immersion, challenge, creativity, design, storyline, raid: nil. Worst piece of junk ever.
"3. Omens of War (open content, good single-group loot, neat atmosphere)"
Great balance of RvR and group/raid content. Among the very best. Good design, graphics, dungeons, story, originality, immersion. Very nice.
"4. Shadows of Luclin (favorite badguy: Shissar, good features, beautiful zones, good loot, lots of hunting grounds, AAs)"
Hello tedium and aliens. In an RPG. Luclin should never have existed. Period.
"5. Ruins of Kunark (lots of zones, cool mobs, good dungeon design (but didn't scale real well and is now abandoned), great lore)"
Already commented.
"6. Scars of Velious (lots of zones, lots of dragons, split players up among three factions and the ubers ended up fighting all three, good loot, good graphics, best raid event ever: The Ringwar)"
Root with kunark of the EQ phenomenon. Very good use of factions, immersive, breath taking. Dragons gallore. Deep storyline. Challenging content. Guild drama and races for the good and the bad. Nice to have lived through it and remember it. Wasn't always nice to experience. Overall. Ground breaking at the time.
"7. Legacy of Ykesha (excellent mobs, great atmosphere, great hunting below 50, some abandoned raid encounters, not much for 50+ folks, good features: dyes and shared banks)"
Gimmick. zero content for the large portion of the playerbase that was at max level at the time. SoE prime example of milking their customers for a few option. That's bordering theft. It should have been free for what it's worth.
"8. Gates of Discord (locked zones, nothing below 50, very little below 60, over half the expansion for raiders only, no real good features, no good loot system considering LDON came out right before it)"
How to make your playerbase hate you with a passion. For real. How to loose your most loyal customers. How to blow years of dedication by sheer ineptitude or incompetence? I don't know why what how it happened but apart from inktuta+ content it better be forgotten and fast.
"9. Planes of Power (Most damaging expansion released. Many players gained nothing but Plane of Knowledge and four hunting zones. This was the first expansion to spell out that high-end players should be high-end raiders. Progressivly locked zones are the devil. Fighting and killing Gods was a big mistake. It left no room for realistic lore progression. Once the first set of flags became unlocked and the experience gap was fixed, the expansion got a lot better but for its first six months, it was a nightmare (pun intended).)"
Hi the last expansion to be created or SoE calling for a disaster. Hi 30 flags to do in a specific order 30 times over. Hi guilds blocking each other in a linear expansion. Hi overpowering of certain classes. Hi farmers. Hi crazy mudflation. Hi 72 man raid you don't know the guy next to you but you play 24 hours a week with him. Hi nerfs and ultra poor PR. POP had disaster written all over it with ignorance and inexperience screaming about certain choices, that was scary. It was overall fun AFTER the act when forgetting ALL its missgivings. But I'm not particularly fond of that era.
"Lots of zones does not equal quality content. I loved Kunark and my days spent there were days well spent, but Dragons is a better expansion. If you were to buy them both at the store for your $30, there wouldn't be any doubt that while Kunark is larger, Dragons has more useful features."
DoN has great tools to make gameplay easy and sleek. It sure is a good thing but that not the ONE thing that would EQ stand out. Kunark and Velious made EQ special. DoN and Omens can make EQ survive in the times of WoW and to a much lesser degree, EQ2.
Comment Posted by: Stylx on March 15, 2005 09:13 AM
PoP was fun until the elemental planes though... Past that it was all about backflagging and killing he next mob.
Comment Posted by: Loral on March 15, 2005 01:05 PM
"POP had disaster written all over it" At least we can agree on something =)
BTW, please watch the personal attacks, Redcloud. You have good and interesting viewpoints but they get lost in spit and venom.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on March 15, 2005 01:51 PM
Watch your comments then. You present your opinions like facts while they are at best personnal views, usually partial, often biased, very often prejudiced and even more often self-serving. Don't expect any kind of sympathy in their treatment when you forgo any kind of ethics or objectivity.
Comment Posted by: Loral on March 15, 2005 03:07 PM
Redcloud, please send me an email to loral@loralciriclight.com.
Comment Posted by: Solistic on March 15, 2005 04:32 PM
Expansion Mobhunter.
Extremely open territory.
Very Immersive Lore, the interweaving of the story line is very confusing at times, but well worth the effort. Many story lines to follow.
Unfair to the working class. A person is not able to close it fast enough to not let the boss know you are reading it. Caters to people that are able to read and answer with out having to do your daily work.
Loot is great, no rare drops, or over camped spots. It is all there for people to make a Biased or Unbiased opinion. It just my opinions are the only ones that count.
Great fighting. The different ideas that conteract the first idea the does not fit in with the fourth idea but is in favor with the major idea. While the majority favors the last idea until the last idea is not longer the last but the first idea.
I love this expansion. It brings risk and humor to my work, and enlightens me about things I have never heard of or will ever experience.
Comment Posted by: on March 15, 2005 04:53 PM
Hey Loral whats your take on the new envisioning information that was released. Sounds like time for a new Sony booster rah rah article.
Some nice ideas 5 years too late and a thinly veiled attempt to keep the remaining players from jumping ship since I would swear I am reading a design document for EQ2, WoW, or Vanguard.
Comment Posted by: Loral on March 15, 2005 05:08 PM
The class re-invisionining is the best thing to happen to Everquest ever! It will pave the path to a glorious world of MMORPG delight filling us with waves of happiness and feelings of belonging.
I mock of course.
I posted my thoughts on the cleric piece over at the cleric forums. I sort of wish we got a bone considering the very cool state system that druids will receive. Most of the changes seem to be pretty good.
Really, however, SOE knew when they announced it that that it wouldn't really curb the negativity of class flag wavers. There is a sad truth in this:
If people want to be unhappy, SOE will never make them happy.
Many people have good points about their classes but end up burying them in paragraphs of drama and metaphor.
I don't know that there ever should have been a giant official class re-invisioning. It may have just worked better to fix class issues as they can and let people figure them out either on Magelo or when the patch message rolls down.
I would feel a lot worse about it if SOE simply did everything the class focusers asked for instead of doing what they believe to be right for the health of the game.
Besides this, I won't be talking about it this week. I already wrote up a new Evil Agenda to try to stick it in after Dragons was released but before SOE gets too far into the next expansion. Expect to see that sometime this week.
I will talk more about class issues when they get closer to release.
In the mean time, rah rah.
Solistic, that game sounds great! Now if only it had a fan boi site =(
Comment Posted by: valbarr on March 15, 2005 05:29 PM
there nerfing charm, making charm work in old zones as it does in omens. but apparently more mobs will be charmable in the old world to compensate, i say leave the current charm spells as is, with all the mob restrictions etc, and make a new line of charm spells that work on more mobs, but have the nerfed DPS of omen charmed mobs. sounds fair to me, shrug.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on March 15, 2005 05:52 PM
The more playstyles supported the better. If they can allow charm to be viable without being overpowering, same with Manaburn, with fear, with whatever else they come up with, it surely is a great piece of news.
Comment Posted by: Teremar on March 15, 2005 08:01 PM
The line about making charm usable in more places is exactly what SOE fed enchanters when OoW was released. Yes you CAN charm in OoW. But very few people think it's worth doing at all. The reward is not worth the risk--you're better off just getting out the good old animation. Pathetic as it is, at least it won't wipe your group.
I am slightly encouraged that they say they want enchanters to charm. And some of their ideas aren't all bad. But I'm not at all convinced they understand the issues well enough to make it work. Their attempts at balancing charm in OoW had nearly the same effect as removing it from the expansion entirely, and I'm afraid the end result here will be removing it from the game, in practice if not in theory.
Comment Posted by: Stonehewer Forkenbeard on March 16, 2005 01:29 AM
Per the Sony dev statement:
Paladins
We want you to be a main tank in group situations. We believe that you are currently able to fill this role, but want to assure you that our intent is for a group to be able to grab a warrior, paladin, or shadowknight as their main tank and be effective with any of them.
With DoN, you gained a limited form of defensive. We are monitoring your feedback and if you like this direction; we plan to make it a full spell line that begins at the level warriors get the defensive discipline.
That in the same post as this:
All spells will check for immunity before they are cast. So if the target is immune, the spell will not generate aggro for the caster.
Ok. Sure. Whatever. I already get out-aggrod by the top third of the warriors on my server, if they choose to yank it from me. Now they want to pull away a good portion of the tools I use to get and maintain the aggro (stuns, most of the time not effective but still aggro generating).
I've had enough. For a long time I've been telling pallies that "hey, it's not that bad, there's more to the game than tanking", but if I'm reduced to a role where there's even the perception that I could be an uncertain tank due to aggro generation nerfage, My ability to get groups is affected. My DPS is the lowest of all melee classes, excepting possibly bards. What's my point then?
I will not be renewing my account when it expires if this is the really the way Sony is choosing to go.
Comment Posted by: Stonehewer Forkenbeard on March 16, 2005 01:35 AM
Hmmm, gotta get an edit button for this place...
In light of some info that's running around the serverwide pally channel, I withdraw most of my vitriol from my last post. Apparently, Brenlo has stated that they're doing away with Stun immunity, though I can't find a post anywhere where he's said that. If that rumor is true, then everything is status quo. If in fact it's not, then I'm outta here. I played the 2nd-class citizen in Kunark, I'm not going back again.
Comment Posted by: Kubb on March 16, 2005 08:51 AM
Just another stray thought: remove no-drop from most items much like Firiona Vie currently works. This will eventually lessen the gap between raiders and non raiders as more gear comes up for sale in the bazaar.
Comment Posted by: Loral on March 16, 2005 09:45 AM
On Paladin Stun Immunity:
"No matter which way we end up going, we'll ensure that classes who rely on spells "landing" on immune targets to generate aggro are still able to generate aggro.
Rashere"
and later:
"The change is aimed mostly at casters who gain aggro from spells that never have a chance to land and then get beat down for it. Mez is one of the best examples.
Being able to generate aggro from spells that do nothing to an NPC has always been an unintended effect. Of course, its been around for so long that, as Madrone says, its pretty core to some classes now. It may end up that we simply don't change the spells that some classes use to intentionally generate aggro. Unfortunately, that would also mean that classes who don't want aggro but use similar spells would be stuck still getting aggro even though the spell could never affect the NPC.
Rashere"
It seems clear that they don't want to mess up a paladin's or shadowknight's ability to generate agro. They want paladins and shadowknights to be able to tank in the single-group situations where a warrior can.
Comment Posted by: Loral on March 16, 2005 09:51 AM
By the way, the 6th year anniversery festivities start today. There are aparently a ton of new fabled mobs and a new anniversery quest like the Staff of Endless Adventure quest last year.
Here's some info:
http://eqlive.station.sony.com/news_section/newsview.jsp?story=50000
Comment Posted by: Loral on March 16, 2005 04:58 PM
Here was an interseting email I recived. I got permission to post it here and I'll respond with flowery pro-SOE propaganda in a little while:
Hey Loral
It is funny I stopped playing EQ shortly after PoP came out yet I still come back to read your articles on mobhunter all the time. I can't comment on the exact state of the game since I have been away from it so long, but I think EQ's biggest problem that they really haven't over come was the exponential power increase from level 50-60. There was such a huge difference in capabilities even between a level 55 and a level 60 and everything else since then has just made the problem worse. This is especially true when it comes to equipment, the items in Kunark made all the original EQ items junk and then when Velious came out with all the items with huge amounts of HP and Mana and every expansion since then has just upped the ante. This then led to mobs hitting for thousands of points in damage and having insane amount of hit points. Had they planned out their expansions better (meaning abilites and items) they really could have made the game much better.
I was hoping they would get away from the reliance on items in EQ2, but from what I have seen it is just as bad with every item having stats/hp/mana/resists. I guess I am just stuck in the old D&D mindset where magic items were rare.
As for your comment about the lack of variety of high end mob models I think that is a problem in almost every game out there. FFXI was the worst as you were killing bats at level 1 and at level 40 you were just killing higher level bats. It would be nice to have a monster that actually looks like it could kill you instead of just a slightly bigger rat beating you down.
Right now I am playing WoW as more a casual gamer, I tried EQ2 but it just felt like too much work to accomplish anything. I like trying out the different classes in WoW since you can get them up fairly high to see what they are like without a huge investment. Of course I think power gamers would probably get bored with WoW pretty quick since you can get to 60 fairly quickly if you played all the time.
I don't want to go off on EQ2 too much, but I was in beta from day 1 and it wasn't ready to be released when it was. They made massive changes right at the end of beta and they were never even tested. The trade skill system was never fully tested and after release they had people exploit the hell out of it and not to mention that the level 40+ game was barely tested. Guess that is why the first group to make it to Vox mowed her down without any problems with less than a full raid group and half the people not even level 50.
Don't mean to ramble on here but I just wonder how much longer they can continue with EQ while still making the game interesting. I don't want to come off as an EQ basher, I liked the game otherwise I wouldn't have put in over 5000 hours in to it over several years.
David
Comment Posted by: Loral on March 17, 2005 12:23 PM
Thanks for the note, David. There's a lot of good discussions in here. Here's my thoughts:
On the high-end powergap: This gap has existed since back in the Kunark and Velious days. The raiders equipped with north TOV items were far superior to those in single-group gear. Most good gear came from raids of at least 18 people including elemental gear, Kael, Thurgadin, and ToV armor.
The gap seems to grow wider but now single-group hunters have access to excellent gear for any level. While big numbers are nice, gear is only important in its ability to help you defeat content. Right now, I believe, a single-group hunter can level from 1 to 70, gain AAs at a rate between 3 to 5% a kill, earn gear at the bazaar, LDON, drops in Omens, and at the vendor in Dragons of Norrath and hunt the hardest single group content available. If there are any raid-equipped only single group areas, its probably limited to the hardest DON missions, Riftseekers, and the MPG trials. However, few people have the levels and AAs but not the gear to hunt in those places.
I think this is a long winded way of saying that yes, there is a large equipment gap, but for practical purposes, it doesn't matter that much. Gear available to a single group hunter is good enough to let them hunt just about any single group content in the game.
One of the things I think EQ needs is a further improvement to the mission vendor system that opens up new sets of higher end gear for accomplishing harder single-group missions. This would let people close the power gap between raiders and single-group hunters. It helps single-group hunters have a further path of progression with some nice rewards. It helps raiders gear up new members without having to go back and raid older content.
Now that flagging is mostly removed from EQ, the next biggest limiter for raiders is gearing up new members. A single-group tiered loot system lets them gear up on their own time instead of forcing a whole raiding force to go back and do older content (like Qvic) to defeat newer content (like MPG / Anguish).
In the mean time, however, the new gear available from the DON vendors is some of the most powerful gear available to single group hunters. It is a fine improvement over LDON.
I played WoW for only a day but I liked what I saw. My swashbuckler (Pavlen over on Antonia Bayle) is now level 25 but I don't think I will make 30 by the time the new adventure pack comes out. I like EQ2 a lot and I like a lot of the changes they made, especially the mentor system. The attuning and tradeskill nerf rubbed people the wrong way but economic health is an important goal.
"Don't mean to ramble on here but I just wonder how much longer they can continue with EQ while still making the game interesting."
Everyone has their own opinions but with the release of Dragons, the big Firiona Vie war, the anniversery changes we saw last night (I got my 2x exp potion, woot!), and the forthcoming class changes, I think there's quite a bit of interesting movement happening. I still enjoy just about every day I log in (I didn't enjoy that night where gating mobs trained my group twice in two missions but you can't have fun all the time).
It sounds like continued fanboidom, but I am always excited to see what the EQ dev team has going on. As long as we keep seeing things changing and moving, the game appears pretty healthy. I'd only worry if we see things begin to stagnate for more than six months.
Any single group hunters who got tired of the focus on raiding should definitely take a look at Dragons of Norrath. It's the most fun I've had with a single group in a long time.
Comment Posted by: Loral on March 17, 2005 01:47 PM
Another interesting email from Merrick:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
no more rats...no more bats...
I agree with you.
Allow me to play devil's advocate however.
If there's nothing interesting about killing rats, bats, and spiders, why would anyone want to do it?
If the first 30 levels (which can be done in a matter of days untwinked) are nothing but rats bats and spiders, why would someone who just bought the game keep paying for their account?
I submit that this is the reason so many low level mobs get new graphics and why they look overused once you get to the higher levels.
Your point about the size is a good one, but I'm fairly certain they've thought of it.
Considering the difficulty with allowing more than one shrink to get a troll beastlord's warder under a certain size I will assume that there are similar issues with mobs that are OVER a certain size. The engine likely can't support it.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I won't really speculate why we're fighting rats bats and spiders at level 70 but I don't think its a game engine problem, its simply creativity.
Progression, along with your friends, keeps us playing Everquest. Progression takes many forms. Acquiring new levels, equipment, AAs, zones, a new look, and new features keeps the game fresh for us.
Part of this progression is in the beasts we fight. In D&D you're fighting kobolds and goblins at level 1 with dreams of one day fighting beholders, lichs, dragons, and demons. Likewise, in Everquest, we fight rats, bats, and spiders with dreams of fighting Nagafen, Rallos Zek, Mata Muram, or Vishimtar.
Some expansions gave us really wild and powerful beasts. A lot of the PoP beasts like the demons of Torment, the fire guardians in Fire, and the ogres in Tactics, really felt big and scary. Same with Gates and Omens: there was no doubt that the Kyv, Ukun, Chimeras, and Bazu are big tough mobs that could pound you into the ground whatever level you are.
But sometimes it takes a step backwards. The spiders, pumas, and goblins in Dragons all look excellent and I wouldn't be embarassed to fight them at level 20, 30, maybe even 40, but once I go to the outer planes or fight my first dragon, the only way a loin-clothed goblin should beat me is if he has 99 other friends.
Mobs should progress like the rest of the game. Yes, SOE had a rough road ahead of defeating gods and arch demons. How do you make beasts tough when a party slayed the Glass Dragon of Valor? You can't really, but you can consider each mob and ask whether being killed by that mob is fun or an embarassment.
I love Dragons and in a lot of cases I think the mobs are really cool. Everyone of those (few) that see the dragons really love them. I would like to see more giants, more demons, more pwerful undead, more evil powerful wizards, and other bigger beasts. Mobs, like gear, levels, zones, and AAs, should be part of the progression. People should want to level to 50 to see new monsters.
One of the reasons I want to reach level 30 in EQ2 isn't just to be big and uber but to go fight vampires. I love vampires and I can't wait to go stab one.
Comment Posted by: Buddy on March 18, 2005 01:18 AM
"There are newbie players for under 50 content?"
This is a key question. Loral, I just reread your guild summitt report, and to quote you:
"Smedley said that the bulk of active EQ players were below level 50"
Could you please confirm that this was not a typo? Because if this is true, this is the proverbial elephant in the living room. No wonder WoW has won such a huge audience with a casual game if the "bulk" of players in EQ, a game which has so disporportionately catered to the raiding class, remains a game mostly populated by casual players. What is Sony thinking not catering to this constituency, assuming this is not a typo?
"Root with kunark of the EQ phenomenon."
I liked Kunark and Velious, but the root of the EQ phenomenon was logging in for the first time in Surefall Glade, looking up at the endlessly towering trees, finding your way to Qeynos for the first time, visiting the jovial denizens of Rivervale for the first time, beholding the monolithic city of Freeport for the first time, running through Butcherblock and ultimately making your way through the brooding darkness of Greater Faydark to lay your eyes for the first time upon the city in the trees. The root of the EQ phenomenon was the culture, character and variety of the original EQ. Kunark and Velious added new content for those who had exhausted what there was to hunt and defeat in the original EQ, and maintained the original character of the game, but they did not establish that character.
Buddy
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on March 18, 2005 05:00 AM
"Kunark and Velious added new content for those who had exhausted what there was to hunt and defeat in the original EQ"
I disagree. It's not just a matter of adding content. It's the kind of lore, immersion, fun value, it brought to the game. You could very well not have set foot in Fear or Hate or Sky and quite enjoy Kunark and Velious from level 1 upwards.
Comment Posted by: Loral on March 18, 2005 06:32 PM
This is a key question. Loral, I just reread your guild summitt report, and to quote you:
"Smedley said that the bulk of active EQ players were below level 50"
Could you please confirm that this was not a typo?
It is not a typo. I confirmed it and reconfirmed it many times. I don't know if it is still true, but if the level average got higher, it wouldn't be by much.
Understand that the average player only includes played characters active each week not including bazaar mules. It does not measure how often within that week they play. You will always find more people above 65 online at any given time because they play the longest, but if you watched the servers for an entire week and just monitored who logged in, you'd probably see more folks below 50 than above it.
Comment Posted by: Redcloud on March 18, 2005 07:15 PM
So even if they log, that doesn't mean that they have bought the last expansion, nor that they use any recent content, nor that they participate to any single or multi group content.
Basically it doesn't mean all that much unless they could gather time-played-per-week / level-range.
Am I right?
Comment Posted by: Heybirder on March 19, 2005 10:38 AM
You're right Redcloud. It's a very misleading and basically worthless statistic. A first rule of statistics is that the existence of a correlation does not itself prove a causal connection.
Comment Posted by: Loral on March 20, 2005 07:27 AM
I wouldn't argue that a statistic like that leads us to expansions that focus on level 50 play. I just think its important to remember that there are a lot of players who aren't 70.
The dev team does look at zones like Harbingers and wonder what good it did them to build it. This is one of the reasons that raids in DoN focus on Time+ raiders and most of the grouping content is 65+.
I agree about the misuse of statistics. There are circumstances, however, where a statistics are useful.
Comment Posted by: Bob on April 7, 2005 03:58 PM
People below lvl 50 still play that arent a P/L'ed twink? If they add up to 10% of the total game population that would be a suprise.
Why would SOE waste time adding more for people below lvl 50, when somewhere around 90% of players power level right past lvl 50.
They have no time for < lvl 50 content unless it gives betetr XP to propel them faster to lvl 70
Personally with the direction EQ has gone in, it would be a waste of development time to create any kind of significant content for lower levels becuase lets face it, EQ does NOT get new players in any measurable numbers.
EQ is nearly 100% the same people who have been playing it for the last 3 or more years, and they have no interest in the low end game , nor have they had an interest in it for a long long time.
IF you want more content, then it should be more content for the lvl 50-60 crowd. So far PoP, GoD, OoW have been total lvl 65-70 playgrounds. LDON is boring as hell but at least there is an obtainable reward for lvl 50-60.
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